Gooose
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So let's imagine that there is a river system in this state that has a wild winter steelhead run that is by anyone's account healthy and robust. Get's enough spawners every year to fully saturate every bit of spawning habitat.....and has been doing so for the past 20 years that we know of. Oh and let's put it in southwest Washington where there is no tribal treaty right just to eliminate that issue from the discussion. Habitats great also from mouth to headwaters....it's all in a national park so no farming, no timber harvest, no mining, no dams, no housing developments and no polluting industries. No hatchery fish planted in it.
So should a catch and take fishery be allowed on those fish? Consider that use would be controlled and limited by special access permits similar to special big game hunt drawings so everyone in the world wouldn't be able to pound it to death so that issue is not on the table. Hmmmmm the fished portions regardless of whether or not it was cnr or cn-eat would also be rotated so no portion of the river could be targeted repeatedly by anyone.
Simple theoretical situation.  Please read the above several times before responding. I'm kinda interested in some reasons why in any responses.
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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IsoIchthus
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Leave it alone.
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buxndux
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If nobody had been fishing it and it was doing this well, I would put it up for a trial basis of say 5 years. If the returns are still good then by all means continue. If the runs decline enough to warrant concern then shut it down.
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Team JACE
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Marty
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How is run health defined and monitored.. does the winter run your planning on targeting have a A B or C run? or are they lumped together to form one happy return because A was heathly enough to saturate the grounds. Provided there is no harvesting of mass destruction (could be any harvest practice) by all means open the fishery. But if this is the last one and we need a control stream to monitor other fishing regions I say leave it for natural study baselines.
Are you shocked 
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Marty
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SKYGUY
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As much as I love the idea of fishing that scenario, leave it alone. Study the hell out of it to help turn our other rivers into a fertal environment, but leave it alone.
Please, do not mention this again! I'll be having hook setting dreams for weeks now.
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TwistAround
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C and R only, no bait, single hook-barbless, no motorboats
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nate
currently targeting inshore redfish and flounder, and fishing the surf for sharks. nightstalking crappie nightly.
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Gooose
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Not in the least.  The run is one big healthy one.  Let's say there are a few other healthy similar runs elsewhere just for discussion's sake. So let's just concentrate on this single theoretical system. 
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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stehlydan
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Leave it alone. CNR is the only way to make sure that all the fish that enter the river for spawning complete their life cycle. Look at the Puget Sound fisheries for instance, there used to be a catchable amount of small creek native steelhead. There aren't anymore. Look at the Skoakomish water system. Before the dan that now makes up Lake Cushman, salmon in the hundred pound class were caught. My personal opinion is that our watersheds should look better when we leave, meaning picking up a piece of garbage, cleaning the boat lauch of debris, releasing that wild steelhead into it's natural habitat. I guess what I'm trying to say is, we have already done so much, leave them alone.
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Marty
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and the other runs that spawn and die provide a healthy nutrient food base? Is there another system we can use as a study stream? I would like to hear more studies on nutrient cycles in the stream. I have seen a system black with nutrients change to almost barren. The escapement went down drastically too. I am wondering if the nutrient supply was cut off before reaching the system. I digress..
I am for harvest if the nutrient base and escapment is maintained.
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Marty
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Marty
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Dan is there a cnr river in this state that has rebounded to escapment goals? Where is the over harvest coming from.. seals?
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Marty
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Gooose
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Twist if the harvested numbers were such that they would not have any and I repeat any affects on the vitality of the run then why only cnr? Let's say we only allow 100 catch-n-keep permits on a run of 10,000 fish? Plus limit the disturbance impacts on spawners and kelts from fishers by allowing only 5 trips per permit holder to achieve their catch. I should also state that my theoretical fishery model is not to spread the wealth of being able to fish opportunity by allowing cnr fishing. It's to provide a high quality fishery that might allow take or not as a permit holder could just fish all of their 5 days and choose not to punch a fish. But they would be off the river after 5 trips.
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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Index Hooker
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sounds like your river would be located in the land of Oz gooose.
if Oz was my home i would have to say leave the river alone and open a season on those dam flying monkey that keep shiteing on my clean car.
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"Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."
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Gooose
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Stehlydan the focus of this discussion is to discuss my question seperate from all of those other comparisons everyone points to. That's why I set it up that way...pointing at those issues doesn't apply. So why only cnr if those items aren't part of the discussion?
Hmmmmm there were 100 pound chinook in the Skok? You sure you aren't wanting to say the Elwha?
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
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Gooose
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Pete's it a river that only exists for the purposes of this discussion. If you see flying monkeys on it you're welcome to harvest them or not.
So back to it. The history of the Puget Sound river runs does not exist for this discussion. Tribal issues and foregone opportunity doesn't apply. Habitat degradation doesn't exist. Can anyone get out of the loop of all the other ongoing arguments on this issue and discuss it based on the scenario I present?
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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AuntyM
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Quote:
So should a catch and take fishery be allowed on those fish?
In a perfect world, yes. But since we don't live in a perfect world, NO!
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Gooose
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Please this river doesn't exist in our imperfect world so let's try to try to discuss it as I have presented it. So under the elements I have given could anyone present a logical and reasoned basis for their opinion of how to manage this fishery in a perfect world? Please...anyone?
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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Index Hooker
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arrrr, kill'em all captian.
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IsoIchthus
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Please this river doesn't exist in our imperfect world
Then this discussion is a waste of time.
posts++;
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Gooose
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Hmmmm so eliminating all the old tired dead horses from the discussion so we can get down to discussing the heart and core of the issue is a waste of time? That's what I've attempted to do.....sorry but it's called a discussion asking for reason and logic. Sticking to dead horses uses neither. 
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
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Fishingjunky15
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"C and R only, no bait, single hook-barbless, no motorboats"
 
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They say that the man that gets a Ph.D. is the smart one. But I think that the man that learns how to get paid to fish is the smarter one.
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Gooose
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Sure but why? There's only gonna be a total of 500 fishing trips and a maximum of 1% direct fishing mortality on this big old fake perfect river. Worst case would be another 1% from indirect causes. So why those restrictions? Any scientific reasons? I'm really waiting to hear some? BTW some of you may be wondering....I haven't bonked a nate steelhead in about 12 years or somewhere around that.
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
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H2H
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Special access permit would be the thing to do.
Other countries run there fish programs this way why can’t we?
Have a drawing to fish the river.
Draw for section of the river.
Have sections mark off, fish one section one day then you have to move to a different section the next day.
If you want CnR pay a certain prices.
Catch and kill one fish only, with a set number of fish annually, pay a certain prices.
No motors!
No bait!
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Brian
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Quillback
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I have always liked the idea of a permit system, permits to be drawn by lottery, each licensed angler can only buy one lottery ticket so everyone has an equal chance. Catch and keep allowed as long as it's a number that the fishery can support and still thrive under.
Permits assigned by day, only X amount of anglers per day that can fish anywhere on the river, if it's flooded out on your permit day, that's too bad.
Of course once word got out about this secret river, poaching would become a serious problem so the permit system would have to raise enough money to provide the necessary enforcement presence. I would also recommend serious fines for anyone caught breaking the rules.
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I'd rather be fishing
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Trouthead
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This seems to be similar to a managed hunting reserve. I think Homer and Quillback have good ideas. I would probably add "no boats at all". A lottery drawing with no repeats, once you have drawn a ticket you can no longer apply. Kill one fish per person total, 5 trips max. per person, catch fish or not. How much per ticket? I'll buy one. Oh yea, about the poachers, hire Guido and company cause your going to need them.
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Trouthead
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TwistAround
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gooose, i say c+r because, if such a stream existed in western WA there most certainly would be poachers. if those of us who stayed legal always released our catch than the small amount of fish that could be taken, without hurting the run, would be taken by the illegals. bodies on the river=a certain amount of illegal behaivor, unless your stream has 16' concrete walls with razor wire and armed guards policeing every inch of the stream.
in the mountains of NC i used to fish c+r rivers all the time that held their own fish and never had to be stocked(trout not steelhead) and there was always a healty amount of fish to be caught. most everybody i met on the stream respected the rules and enjoyed the fishery, but a few times i saw people walk out with full stringers and huge grins. when i spoke to a game officer a few days later he said if he caught someone doing this he would bust them to the fullest extent that he could, including taking the truck/gear. but he said that since its a c+r stream the take of the poachers that dont get caught doesnt really hurt the fish population
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nate
currently targeting inshore redfish and flounder, and fishing the surf for sharks. nightstalking crappie nightly.
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Gooose
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Good reply Twist! I suspect there would always be poaching even with 16 foot walls and razor wire. Poachers these days have been known to even raid broodstock holding ponds at hatcheries. No way for me to exclude human behaviour from the scenario....but using the permit fees to pay for a full time river warden as I suspect they do on many rivers in Europe would help control it. CNR would be the choice of the permit holders. Homer I knew this one would attract your attention.
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
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H2H
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I know, I couldn't let this one go by without adding my .04!
This issue has been talk about for the last two years on Steelhead and Cutthroat Policy Advisory Committee (SCPAC). I’ve talk with guides who fished in Russia (Wild Salmon Center) about this and they have some good ideas on this issue. That area over there sounds like what Quillback is talking about! Some studies they have done deal with motors on boats, after running across a section of river several times there catching ability goes down. When they just float the section it doesn’t change. That’s why I said no motors.
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Brian
Edited by Homer2handed (07/01/04 07:52 AM)
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AuntyM
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Cute ideas, but we don't currently have these options. So until we do have pristine, perfect rivers and a better management system like what is suggested in place:
Release all Wild Steelhead and don't be swayed by warm fuzzy "what if's" 
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H2H
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Now Now Aunty M,
This is Fantasy land where talking about!
Bye and Bye I going out to Westport Monday for two days of gear fishing now that fantasy land, it be along time since I used a gear rod!
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Brian
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AuntyM
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H2H, You will learn. We will corrupt you and make you one of us yet! Good food, good beer, pleasant company... you'll be dragging bait down rivers in no time. And LOVING it!
Oh, and I don't want Gooose lulling us to sleep with HIS fantasies.  (Mooose ears for Gooose!) 
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Deficit neutral, the new "big lie"
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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H2H
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Will I be safe?
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Brian
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H2H
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I don't know about you guys/gals?
I don't know if I'm going to be safe with you all!
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Brian
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Gooose
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Homer did you ever hear about the time I heard a water ouzel, a raven and a cow elk call me a cracker? True story! Uhhhhh safe? Well back to the banks of the fantasy steelhead river.
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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H2H
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OK!
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Brian
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H2H
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You see what Aunty M did!
She side tracked the thread!
I think?
Oh Sh** I did!
Edited by Homer2handed (07/01/04 07:58 PM)
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AuntyM
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http://www.ccapnw.org
Deficit neutral, the new "big lie"
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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Desertdog
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so this river is running at full production i.e. Maximum # of returning adults. Limited access. I do not think it would harm it if those that were fortunate enough to get drawn were to harvest 5 fish. Total max harvest for the year would be 500 out of 10,000 returners. 5% harvest.
One cavat... if the #'s start down sut it down and as with any decent fantasy land they will rebound. Just my opinon.
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Grandpa to 9 boys 8 girls and 1 angel
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H2H
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Back to Fantasy River!
Instead of going head first with how much we can take, let’s just start with a TOE first approach. Start off small run a cycle or two and see what comes back (You know what happens to runs of fish in this state). Why not start out with caution, then we can see what is going on after couple of cycles (I know Aunty M your have a big smile on your face). Start slow then speed up (kinda like my drinking days) the fishing instead of going in head first.
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Brian
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AuntyM
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Well, it just so happens that those 500 fish you just harvested were genetically programmed by mother nature to stray and WOULD have gone north to Vancouver Is. to help repopulate those runs.
Neaners. My fantasy is bigger than YOURS!
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Gooose
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and were promptly displaced by stray Atlantic salmon....
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
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IsoIchthus
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Which were all promptly eaten by sea lions that enjoy atlantic salmon.
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Gooose
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 I've created a monster
Dare I say that the new rule for this scenario is that certain populations of marine mammals may now be legally lethally controlled?
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
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AuntyM
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Uhoh, it seems those stray atlantic salmon that weren't eaten by the controlled pinnipeds just spawned in your fantasy river.
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"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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H2H
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That why I suggested starting out slow with harvest and CnR, so we could get a data base on what is going on (Aunty M have you cleaned your screen lately). So we could see out side influence on the runs. Even on are Fantasy River (lets call are Fantasy River from now on Marsha, Marsha, Marsha River MMM River short version). We haven’t even talk about a 100 year flood yet. Or a land slide those type of thing all ways happen even in Fantasy Land. Since we are going to limit access we most have enforcement, this is where a club would come in handy. So lets call are new club MMM Goosier (how’s that for a name) they could over see what going on with the river and report problems to the right people. More later.
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Brian
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IsoIchthus
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Certain marine mammals may be lethally controlled eh?
Do geese count as marine mammals? They like water and are awfully tasty after some time on a rotisserie.
Cooked gooose for Cowtilla anyone?
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AuntyM
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Quote:
That why I suggested starting out slow with harvest and CnR, so we could get a data base on what is going on
Or you COULD just get a data base without harvest accept for C&R mortality. Safer that way!
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superfly
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Goose,
Leave it alone, this state would some how find a way to [**whoops**] it up, I wish such a place exsisted, I am all for the wild steelhead ban.
Peace Suuperfly
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cupo
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The mortality of a permit, limited retention fishery like described would be ok by me, but I see two problems. CnR would provide more people an opportunity to fish than a permit system would, yet still keep the number of dead fish low. My second issue is that the state has a poor record of predicting run sizes. Just because the state says 10,000 fish are returning doesn't mean it's true. I'm not knocking the state for what they do, it's impossible to predict how many fish are leaving a river as juveniles and how many of those will return in a few years.
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This can't be healthy. All this fishing is really messing with my head.
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H2H
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Aunty M Yes!
SW your right.
SW when we going fishing?
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Brian
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Gooose
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Why is cnr mortality safer? It's 100% pure estimate based not a single count of any fish that actually died. Whereas at least in this system you would you would have a known number of fish that actually died plus an estimated number added to it that may have died from other causes. Also we would essentially have a known number of user trips which would help firm up the estimated additional mortality. Under the just open it up to everyone for cnr only scenario we would have no accurate estimate of use or the associated mortality. BTW user trips all by themselves do equal some amount of mortality including that from cnr, hooked fish that were lost, and disturbance on the redds. No way to estimate that folks unless you could put a WDFW employee at every popular drift and hole. Plus a bunch of expensive studies. So to be safe why not limit the fishery to a controlled number of user trips with a very conservative number of fish being allowed to be taken( or not) by permit only holders? The unknown effects from cnr mortality, hooked but lost mortality and disturbance would be minimized by limited use. Seems safest for these fantasy fish in my book.
Iso I am a large mammal.
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
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AuntyM
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Quote:
being allowed to be taken (or not)
Or not works for me!
"I" never said large mammal. You'd have a fraction of the impact that a pinniped would have.
And some people don't think your a mammal, but a large edible bird and would rather harvest you. HONK!
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Gooose
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Well "not" means no fishing at all for the purposes of this fantasy river discussion.
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Goose get it straight it's MMM River not Fantasy River!
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Gooose
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Well then "not" meaning no fishing at all applies to MMM River. If a system such as described here cannot support an amount of harvest so minute that it would be scientifically impossible to detect the impacts even in the best of funded and designed studies then it begs the question of why then allow direct harvest on wild stocks of similar species of the same Genus that number 5 fold or 10 fold the 10,000 fish we are discussing here? Careful how you respond to that question as it's loaded.
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Yes, why indeed? As convuluted as you've made this fantasy, the ideal is for us to stop fishing altogether.
Give it up. I will NEVER yeild Gooose.
RELEASE ALL WILD STEELHEAD!
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On the MMM River, I would call in a firm name BioSonics Inc. to have a study done (I went to a seminar and seen there work, very impressive). They can put a counting system in the mouth of the MMM River and every “5” river miles to collect the data as needed. After there study is done you will have a great idea what is going on. They have done river studies in Norway and Canada that has turned around there river system. And gave them accurate fish count and fish survival.
After there study is done, and some one that could read there study then and only then would a decision be made to open the MMM river or close it.
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Aunty M wrote:
"RELEASE ALL WILD STEELHEAD!"
That's my Gal!
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Edited by Homer2handed (07/02/04 10:35 PM)
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Gooose
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I certainly did not say the ideal was for us to stop fishing. But barring a "religious" based decision making process and relying solely on science, whether it be there or not, it is the only other choice in my book. Ever hear of the term "loving the environment to death?"
Homer I have yet to see a study that was designed "a priori" to it's conclusion that had confidence intervals better than 25% one way or the other and those are few and far between. Most are worse than that. A lot of them are at best are ad hoc analyses. The public, media, and interst groups use them as gospel when at best they are cow fodder or the result of that. I am definitely interested in hearing more about what you referenced! Do they tag the fish is my first question? I have friends involved in that realm of science and wish to discuss it further.
Btw cnr does not mean fish don't die.
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I have a CD that talks about BioSonic
I'm learning about CnR and there effect on rivers, I seat on two diferent watershed boards and SCPAC. Been doing alot of studing on this kind of thing lately and hatchery system.
The first draft of the "WHITE PAPER" will be out in late Setpember.
Edited by Homer2handed (07/02/04 11:27 PM)
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Homer I'd very much like to know how they do those counts. If they do not tag fish then how do they account for crossover fish which are quite common. If they do tag fish then there is some handling issues and scientific biases to consider.  Good stuff! 
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Good question, I'll have to look at the CD agian.
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The trouble with your so called science is that it isn't working and hasn't been working for too long already. After seeing the region 5 bio in action and observing that he couldn't even answer some SIMPLE questions on wild fish recovery, I came to the conclusion that there is an entity far more qualified than any bio alive that we should place our faith and reliance in. Good old mother nature. Mother nature doesn't owe anything to any special interest groups. The environmentalism that you disdain SO MUCH needs to be allowed to protect and restore habitat. Fix the habitat, stop placing "bully hatchery fish" in the rivers, AND THEY WILL COME!
I don't think we can trust our fishing futures to the current bios in charge. It's akin to "religious zealotry" to defend their shortcomings and inabilities. I understand your desire to maintain the states "status quo" with our fisheries, but it's failing to solve problems. It's that very "status quo" and political garbage that got us where we are now. In most other occupations, these bios would have been fired for failing to produce the desired results. It's time to stop protecting the guilty.
People "criticize" fly fishermen for wanting "boutique" fisheries, yet that's EXACTLY what you've created with your fantasy river. The state being what it is... want to bet that certain people would ALWAYS get drawn in a lottery? I'd rather close it to fishing than to allow the state to control it. Nope... I don't think this state is capable of managing your fantasy river any better than they have the rest of them. Wild steelhead can not handle the pressure we've allowed to be put on them.
RELEASE ALL WLD STEELHEAD! The genetic diversity you release today will allow these spectacular fish to be there tomorrow.
Oh, and I still luv ya Gooose. Even if we will never agree on WSR.
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Marty
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Is CnR detrimental to the long term health of the system verses no fishing. Why allow any fishing if the mythical stream is to used as a true baseline. Would need a second mythical stream to see results of the cnr stream.
The death of lifecycle nutrients at the wrong time of year sill lowers the carrying capacity of the system. I like to look at it as my cherry tree in the back yard... more cherries for two weeks than I can eat. The rest of the year I must eat something else or will starve to death.
Fish are part of the nutrient base and bring the nutrients with them from the ocean. This is well documented... Our systems aren't managed based around the saturated nutrient levels.
CnR kills fish unless its a mythical river.. how much cnr is to much? Those tiny subruns that come into systems that span timelines are the carrying level of a system, not the mass run that shows up. We need a cherry tree for the entire year..
The science of today continues to improve the ecosystem ideal ... we just don't have political agreements, funding and research to return levels to the natural state.
Those big mean hatcheries aunty complains about don't impact the upper rivers on all the systems, but where are the fish? The biggest impact they have is bypassing nutrient drain of the system while still producing fish. Those smolts get food year round and get protection to get past the vulnerable age. A hatchery can produce great results or genetic misfits... that we can control.
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Aunty M get it right it’s called MMM River! (We have to have fun with this, don’t we?)
Aunty M wrote:
“People "criticize" fly fishermen for wanting "boutique" fisheries, yet that's EXACTLY what you've created with your fantasy river.”
SHHHHHH! Maybe no one else will notice. SHHHHH!
Aunty M wrote:
“want to bet that certain people would ALWAYS get drawn in a lottery?”
Welcome to America! (I had to say that!)
Now one of the best lines in this thread, Aunty M wrote:
“RELEASE ALL WLD STEELHEAD! The genetic diversity you release today will allow these spectacular fish to be there tomorrow.”
I don’t have to comment about this.
Now Marty
CnR does kill some fish, no problem there. But do meat fisherman (fly Or gear) kill more fish then CnR fisherman? Isn’t better to be able fish then not to fish at all? Take a look at Bass fishing how’s that doing? With CnR.
Marty wrote:
“The science of today continues to improve the ecosystem ideal ... we just don't have political agreements, funding and research to return levels to the natural state.”
You said a mouth full there. The Science today is light years ahead of what it was ten years ago. Look at the Bull Trout studies done in the 90’s; they have found out that those studies are wreathless! (Wreathless is probably bad word here butt I will say it) There studies done in the past four years have proven that! Look at what is going on today! All the Bio’s are all over the place we need them to get togther. Do I think this will happen in the never future? NO!
Marty I don’t want to get into a hatchery debate, which is a HOT BED issue. I’m already doing that down south and learning a lot more then I really want to know.
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Quote:
Is CnR detrimental to the long term health of the system verses no fishing. Why allow any fishing if the mythical stream is to used as a true baseline. Would need a second mythical stream to see results of the cnr stream.
Agree with that 100%! With the mythical stream, we were given a harvest option. That's 100% mortality on the bonked fish vs 5-10% mortality for C&R. The mythical river proposed will have a known number of mortality instead of an estimated number. The advantage does not outweigh the creation of a "boutique" fishery for a select group.
Quote:
The death of lifecycle nutrients at the wrong time of year sill lowers the carrying capacity of the system. I like to look at it as my cherry tree in the back yard... more cherries for two weeks than I can eat. The rest of the year I must eat something else or will starve to death.
That IS a good analogy. Not all cherries ripen at the same time and you'd never want to keep just one tree in one spot of your yard. Steelhead spawn in almost all of the river. Not just upstream. You need to vary your cherry trees by location AND type. Why the heck do you have to have FRESH cherries or not some other fruit? Can some of those cherries and grow some apples. Oh, and go chase another kind of fish like sturgeon, ling cod and halibut. Shrimping is also worthwhile.
Quote:
The science of today continues to improve the ecosystem ideal ... we just don't have political agreements, funding and research to return levels to the natural state.
The thing we as sportsman need to do is to change our thinking. Too many seem to think they have an "entitlement" to wild fish and that's what's gotten us in trouble. We pressure WDFW to give us our share. It would be far better for the wild fish if NO ONE was entitled to them. Including tribes. They should only be harvested for broodstock.
Quote:
Those big mean hatcheries aunty complains about don't impact the upper rivers on all the systems, but where are the fish? The biggest impact they have is bypassing nutrient drain of the system while still producing fish. Those smolts get food year round and get protection to get past the vulnerable age. A hatchery can produce great results or genetic misfits... that we can control.
Im my little world, there IS a place for big mean ol hatchery fish. However, keeping them in the lower watershed, they don't then add nutrients upriver. With the current run timing of hatchery fish, we've wiped out the early component of wild fish.
The hatchery answer is probably broodstocking fewer fish, naturalization ponds/creeks and outmigration on their own for starters. 
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Damn, I have to go some where!
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Oops... I left out one thing.
Quote:
but where are the fish?
Good question! How is it that we forecast runs for the next year based on jack counts this year and then the fish don't make it back? Are the bio's really that far off in their calculations? A perfect example is this years Columbia Springer run, followed by the Lake Washington Sockeye run. Where the heck did those fish go? How could you have an excellent forecast for both runs fall flat like that?
Let's take a hint from Angie and her theories, however "unscientific" it may be.
The fish, including steelhead are getting caught out in the ocean by foreign fishing fleets. Oh sure, lot's of folks are blaming it on ocean conditions, but if the jack numbers were healthy the year before and the spawning adults don't show up, I'd say the definition of "ocean conditions" needs to include commercial fishing pressure. 
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Aunty please try the following mathematical exercise.
1. Choose a mortality rate for a cnr fishery
2. Choose a figure for the number of fish released
3. Multiply #1 by #2
4. What's the total estimate of dead fish? And it shouldn't end there .
Of course you should also have multipliers for the fish that die after being hooked and lost....granted it may be smaller but just for fun pick figures for number of fish crackered off and a mortality rate for those.
Hmmmmm let's take it even further. Fish that fail to spawn successfully because of human disturbance factors is essentially the equivalent of a dead fish. Couple of more multipliers to add to the equation.
So do you see where a wild run can be loved to death?
There's a reason why there are limited entry big game hunts in this state and elsewhere.
Disdain for environmentalism? Uhhhh yah I spent 3 years of my life surrounded by them at the university. I believe I have a fairly good insight into the nature of how that word applies to natural resource use.
I'm all for cnr and wsr but I'm also all for laying all the cards face up on the table.
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Gooose,
You really are wasting your time you know. I understand and appreciate that all your adult life has been dedicated to resource issues. HOWEVER, it's been focused on HARVESTING (taking) resources and you are falling behind the times. We can't keep taking more resources than can be replaced. I know YOU haven't been responsible for human population increases personally but it's happening. It clearly makes sense if you double the pressure on the fish, you must compensate for that increase. Your way of compensating won't please the people who pay your salary and support fishing. It will discourage, not encourage fishing. You NEED all of us to contribute financially or F&W will cut things we don't want cut. (including you) The more people you can get out there fishing, the better. C&R is the ONLY way to endure it without causing extinction or extirpation. When combined with "good" broodstock programs, we should have excellent harvestable fish for us and less damage to the wild fish populations.
Without those environmentalists that you despise, clear cutting in sensitive watershed areas would not have stopped. They are a neccessary evil to bring balance.
For what it's worth, all my cards have always been on the table.
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So we just allow the pressure to increase and compensate? End result of that scenario is still an extinction model in fisheries science. Add in a rate of annual increase in user trips to my previously given simplistic model and that's what you'll find out. At some point the total mortality will exceed the stocks abilty to be viable. Course in the mean time everyone gets to pat themselves on the back....that they did their part to protect those fish.
The limited entry or limited user impact scenario avoids that result by having a maximum allowable user impact threshold. It also would ensure that no single portion of a run will be overfished by spreading out use spatially and temporally.
But of course that is a fishery based on good science that everyone seems to be clamoring for.....not popular but certainly good science.
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Note I do not advocate such a fishery on a across the board all rivers basis....if at all. It's just an example for discussion.
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Course in the mean time everyone gets to pat themselves on the back....that they did their part to protect those fish
And indeed they did. Had they continued bonking, their fishing seasons would have ended many years before. The scenario of C&R will keep those fish around and thriving far longer. At least until the time that we ALL have to quit fishing, not just the elitist select few that could afford the tag or just happened to "know" the right people.
Not to mention, if we get to the point that a guy/gal may only catch a few steelhead a year out of dozens of trips, most will give up fishing and stop buying licenses, gear and tackle. There goes the funding for your science.
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Far longer? So it is an extinction fishery then? Ah well let's all enjoy it while the fish are still here .
Uhhhhh what funding for science? Sorry but the funding isn't there anyway and license fee's amount to less than a third of the existing expenses. Anyway who needs good science as it would be so unpopular .
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Marty
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homer I hear ya but a poor gear fishermen will kill less that a good cnr fisherman. At 10% mortality cnr if I catch a 100 fish thats 10 dead fish. Those 10 fish may include deep hookings. Now lets not forget to add in the percentage of fish that will die due to fall back recouperation into tribal nets or to tired to sucessfully spawn. The cnr mortality study also only take into effect that fish being caught ONCE.. not 2,3 or the 4th time? Thats gonna be a tired fishie.
Now on the political front I oppose complete closure of the rentention of wild fish. It is based on foregone opportunity and the reality of it happening. The only areas in the state where this is a issue is right here where I live on the OLYMPIC PENINSULA streams and I am very well informed on whats happening on both sides. Look me up at the cowtilla I be happy to explain the tribal issues with you.
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Gooose, your sarcasm is starting to approach that of you know who. Are you sure you want readers to walk away with that impression?
We can agree to disagree, but if all you planned to do is ridicule the other side, then this has been a waste of time. This board is better than that and you should be too.
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Sorry if pointing out inherent truths is considered ridicule. Kind of a two street though wouldn't you say?Guess it's much better to just support the popular mantra and ignore any of those unpopular ugly little realities.
So would anyone care to actually point out with any kind of science the fallacy of those realities?
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I see what you're after. Let me encourage you to stop lurking on that other board and jump into the fray. If you want to act like "they" do and you feel you're missing out on all the action, go harrass them.
I won't be party to that kind of activity ever again. Not there and not here. If we can't respect each other enough to debate without insulting each other, I want no part of it. It's Marty's board, and he can allow whatever atmosphere he wants. If it takes the tone of the scumbag board though, I'm gone.
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Ready and willing to discuss the issues in a respectful manner. Always have been...so shall we? So again, respectfully, has anyone any science based counter points to the ones I have made or the questions I have asked? For example?
Point: It is clear that given increasing user pressure that a cnr fishery still would lead to the same result as a fishery that allowed harvest. Same result...just takes longer.
Question: How is that better?
Simple and respectful. Please respond in kind.
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Quote:
How is that better?
Changing the harvest impact to an equal C&R impact allows more fishermen to fish. Lots more. That's more dollars in the economy and more dollars to WDFW. This board is a good tool to educate the masses on how best to release, (keep a fin in the water! )
Like it or not, more fishermen gives us more MEMBERSHIP and support here, and more POWER as a user group. Pretty simple, except for those wishing solitude. They will have to be like ltlcleo and hike their butts to places no one else can reach.
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I've seen the light!
Thanks, Aunty M!
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Edited by Homer2handed (07/04/04 11:06 AM)
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Gooose
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Didn't answer the question though? Please if you must respond....respond with consideration of the relevant point.
Just looking to an answer to that....nothing else please?
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Marty
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Quote:
Changing the harvest impact to an equal C&R impact allows more fishermen to fish. Lots more. That's more dollars in the economy and more dollars to WDFW. This board is a good tool to educate the masses on how best to release, (keep a fin in the water! )
This is assuming the cnr fishery would have an equal economic draw after eliminating other special interests. I look forward to the halibut fly fishing opener
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First I would like to say I am totally against user fees. This would catch on like wildfire in this state and soon we would be paying license fees and then user fees for idividual lakes streams and salwater areas, total BS.
Second, it amazes me that even in a fantasy river with a huge healthy run of fish people still wont agree to some harvest. Why are we still allowed to harvest native salmon with people like this running around? When will I have to start releasing native flounder etc...., shows that some of these wsr people are stuck with there mindset because of reasons other than that of the saving of wild steelhead. Just like I said at the very start of the wsr debate "Its just a do gooder law" Though this discusion is a theoretical one, there were five rivers closed due to wsr that have harvestable #s of steelhead in them.
As for the increase in pressure at ya'lls fishing spots this year you cant blame it on more fishermen. license sales are down 15%! You can blame it on closures! Remember the concentrate #s and close conspiracy I brought up years ago.
Aunty letting things go back to nature aint going to cut the mustard. Among other problems like nets there are approxamatly 720,000 more pinnepeds in this area then thre was back in the good old days.
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micropterus101
To tell the truth I am too, when it comes to user fees. But we are already doing it now!
That little parking sticker on everyone rig from WDFW, then if you go to any State Park and fish in Washington there another fee. I believe it has started already!
I’m not against harvest totally; there is a place for it. Someone once told me if you get three fishermen together they will all have a different view? Some people are stubborn (Hell I’m Norwegian wait to you meet me) mindset is a hard thing to change in people. I’m still waiting on the numbers on the OP rivers, One of the Bob’s is on vacation and the other is running around twice as fast; when those numbers come out will have a better understanding of what is going on.
micropterus101 wrote:
”As for the increase in pressure at ya'lls fishing spots this year you cant blame it on more fishermen. license sales are down 15%! You can blame it on closures! Remember the concentrate #s and close conspiracy I brought up years ago.”
Your right about that, only game in town!
"close conspiracy" I like to hear more about it.
Marty
Looking forward to talking with ya!
The camp fire talk should be interesting!
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Brian
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AuntyM
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Not sure where you're getting your numbers of Pinnepeds Micro, but if you haven't read the article in the Salmon and Steelhead Journal, it's a good one. They quote a number of 500,000 seals and sea lions that affect salmon runs in the Northwest. What I found interesting is that not all 500,000 are problems. Apparently, only a select group is causing the problems. Maybe we need to start pushing for controls on those rotten thieving beasts.
As far as releasing fish... we release quite a few "OTHER" species like unclipped coho and chinook, yelloweye rockfish, etc. As long as you get to keep a healthy broodstock fish, there is no reason for you to quit fishing. Is it a "do gooder" law to release an engangered yelloweye? That argument is a bit weak.
Our population is on the increase and it will inevitably lead to an increase in fishermen. If not today, you can bet it will tomorrow.
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H2H
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Marty wrote:
“homer I hear ya but a poor gear fishermen will kill less that a good cnr fisherman.”
I had to think about this for awhile, your might be right because most good CnR fisherman are out there a lot more than a poor gear fisherman. Poor gear fisherman only get out a couple times a year. Most good CnR fisherman are out there more then 200 days a year on rivers around the state.
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Brian
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micropterus101
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Aunty M,
Science has shown that there are not harvestable #s of yellow eye therefore the closure is warranted. Unlike the blanket rule wsr imposes on every river,even rivers that are shown to have harvestable #s
"Our population is on the increase and it will inevitably lead to an increase in fishermen. If not today, you can bet it will tomorrow."
Our population has increased yet the #s of fishermen has decreased. Yet fishing areas seem overcrowded around the state because of the closures due to excess snagging, trash, private property and so on. Its a chain reaction that could eventually mean the end to fishing in peace and quiet. and possibly the end of fishing period.
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Gooose
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That endangered yelloweye rockfish that was cnr'd after being pulled up from 300 feet is most definitely dead....pretty much a 100% mortality in that fishery whether we release or not. For Puget Sound rockfish there are no scientifically reliable population estimates below a depth of 100 feet. Thats the maximum depth they are able to sample. They use catch data to extrapolate the population numbers. Of course when they reduced the catch to one then zero rockfish it kinda made it hard to count much in the way of harvest. Plus add into the equation that a lot of fishers like myself bagged fishing for rockfish when the limit dropped to one. So the reliability of those estimates are nil.
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Marty
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Homer I have met bad gear fishermen that are out 200 days a year too, some become fly fishermen
All the skill levels vary and so do the techniques, but they are all having fun. My spey casting may suck but I can toss a dry with the best of them.
What I hate is others imposing restrictions on my choices for the betterment of theirs. Leave my squeaky wheel alone, I like the noise
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Marty
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Quillback
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This has gone from Fantasy river to the debate about wild steelhead CNR. Since we're on that subject...
Has WDFW ever done a comparative study of 2 similar rivers one where wild harvest was allowed and one where it was only CNR, that had similar habitat and were also impacted by netting?
Will wild fish CNR regs result in population rebounds? Is there data to support it? I haven't seen any. If the are going to implement wild CNR on the OP they need to keep track of fish populations and see if there is any real improvement. I haven't seen any money allocated for it, the commision decrees "Thou shalt not keep wild steelhead" and there's no follow up on the impacts. It's seat of the pants guesswork.
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AuntyM
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Precisely. There's your wonderful and great fisheries science in action. Don't ask us to trust the very group that has allowed overfishing in just about EVERY fishery in this state. Some won't recover in our lifetimes, IF EVER! I don't trust their science OR management that keeps leading to closures and ESA listings.
About the only abundant species that comes to mind is... well, except for what seems to be an over abundance of...
oysters?
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Marty
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Gooose I posted an article awhile back that had to do with releasing those yellow eye and bloated bladders. It was a technique they used in florida to use a hypo inserted into the bladder so they could get back down. The use of that technique could open a fishery back up with the proper data and equipment.
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Marty
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Quillback
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Yeah what good does it do to release a yellow eye with it's bladder hanging out of it's mouth?
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Gooose
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Actually I haven't said anything in this thread to support in any way the fish management science used currently or in the past in this state. What I have presented is a very simplistic but also very valid harvest model for a cnr fishery that allows for zero politics or social agendas. Everyone should please note that.
With some of the current politics...I'm not so sure about oysters remaining abundant . But that's a whole other discussion.
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Gooose
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Marty I've tried that technique at work...it's at best hit and miss. But it does work.
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AuntyM
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The salty dogs on Ifish have a thread about the yellow eye revival and one of the interesting things is the lower water column release AFTER deflating. Sounds like it may work.
And yes Gooose, your model is simplistic. Without Marty's suggested second river for comparison, your "science" wouldn't necessarily be valid.
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Gooose
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Actually for a statistically robust model you would need numerous rivers. I've watched people try that for years and the results are not particularly fun to deal with. The differences between rivers are too great and comparison of the results from one to just one other in order to come up with something that would apply across the board to the many rivers is called bad science. But it is typical in the real world for government and nongovernment entities to ignore that problem and just make the assumption that variation in habitat and stocks doesn't exist. That works unless someone points out that it isn't valid but usually it results in the mess on our non-fantasy rivers. So since I'm not attempting to discuss fisheries on more than just this one fantasy river there is no statistical need for a control fantasy river. Given that my model is still very valid for specifically managing this river.
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AuntyM
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The simple answer Gooose, that you refuse to accept is that a bonked fish can't spawn. A released one just might be able to. That isn't even rocket science.
Oh, and you forgot the nasty greedy guy with the gravel pit operation that wants to increase said operation along your river. It's looks like his permits are approved too!
You also forgot the PUD that has petitioned to dam your river because 1,000,000,000 people moved to Waterworld in the last few years. They need the water for power and drinking.
Then you forgot about Timberdreams. They plan to log all their land upstream and they have permits in hand.
You also forgot about Cowpie's ranch in the bottomlands. He never has bothered to fence those steers away from the banks.
Oh look, there's Old MacDonald who has a farm! Pigs, chickens and acres of veggies that need fertilizers, pesticides and herbicides.
Ho ho ho! Look at that nice Christmas tree farm! What's that they're spraying?
Where did those houses come from? They weren't there just a minute ago?
EWE! Look at this crud running into the drainage ditch! What is that? Is it oil? tranny fluid? YUCK.
Maybe you should quit trying to fanatasize and live in the real world again Gooose. Bonked fish don't spawn in either world.
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Gooose
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Sadly no dead fish spawn in the real world....kinda equal opportunity there. But hey bring up all of them other issues.....I'll throw in Bubba letting his dog or kids play in the redds. Alls that does is sidetrack the issue being discussed so the issue can be avoided . So anyone care to give an estimate of how many fish were CNR'd on oh let us say the Sol Duc last season? Let's see hmmm a couple of friends of mine did their annual trip with a certain well known guide......I believe it was 18 to the boat that day.....all released. They've had mid 20's days in past years. Hmmmmm let's see that might be 1.8 dead fish. So how many user days would it take to kill 1000 fish thru cnr fishing?
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AuntyM
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Oops!
WDFW was just given notice by the Shangrila tribe. They intend to begin gillnetting their 50% of fantasy river steelhead starting Next week. Seems they had just been foregoing their opportunity before.
Let's see, 50% of Gooose's wild fish just got their death sentences, since we have no escapement figures and no agreements.
Oh wait, is this harvest being reported completely and accurately? The Shagrila's are notorius for fudging. Every year, they report they've been taking 100% of their allotments on every other river they net. If they can harvest 4999 fish according to agreements, they report they caught 4999 fish. Do we trust their figures?
The trips that were planned for the permit holders coincide with netting days. Uhoh.... SOMEBODY's gonna be ticked!
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Gooose
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Yups when you can't deal with a discussion the best strategy is to sidetrack it..... . Wow I had no idea that my simple point made and corresponding question was so scary that it couldn't be responded to. Guess that is all the answer I need.
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"Seen worse".....
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WoodsyWayne
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Sounds good to me....
Popcorn time yet?
WW
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Fishermans Prayer: G-d grant that I may fish until my dying day, and when it comes to my last cast I then most humbly pray, When in the the lord's safe landing net I'm peacefully asleep, that in his mercy I be judged as big enough to keep
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Gooose
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Yups Wango! *meow* 
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
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WoodsyWayne
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Quote:
Gooose said:
. Can anyone get out of the loop of all the other ongoing arguments on this issue and discuss it based on the scenario I present?
without sounding controlling...that is...
lmao
WW
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Fishermans Prayer: G-d grant that I may fish until my dying day, and when it comes to my last cast I then most humbly pray, When in the the lord's safe landing net I'm peacefully asleep, that in his mercy I be judged as big enough to keep
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