Fishhead5
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Just so you know, The tribe opened up snagging with triple hooks this year. It has been legal for them to snag in years past, only with single hooks. They are enforcing trespassing on the res, this includes standing in the water. WDFW officers were with tribal enforcement making sure white man left. I would assume that if you are half way across the river, you are fine. It appears this is the tribal members usual and accostume snagging areas I.E. upper Hunters field, Ledges in the lower field. This isn't a biatch thread, just an information thread. If you don't like it, stay the hell away from the skok. I would personaly would rather fish with the tribe than 90% of the whities that are out there " Fishing " anyway.
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Fishhead5
It is not illegal to deplete a fishery by management.
Edited by Fishhead5 (08/01/08 08:47 PM)
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AuntyM
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Quote:
than 90% of the whities
Sure hope I'm in that other 10%! 
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Fishhead5
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You and Caveman are in the top 1%!!
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Fishhead5
It is not illegal to deplete a fishery by management.
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CHINOOK73
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I always thought that treble hooks and small grappling hooks were legal for the tribe to use. That seems to be the prefered method on that river. As for the stepped up enforcement on trespassing, good to know.
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AuntyM
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Quote:
I always thought that treble hooks and small grappling hooks were legal for the tribe to use. That seems to be the prefered method on that river.
I too have seen heavy rods, heavy braid and treble hooks. However, the ethnic group using them were not what we would call Native American. The are from the America's, just a little further south.  They were mistaken as tribal fishers by some sporties though!
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Fishhead5
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Update: They had a meeting last night and decided against using triple hooks, It's back to a single hook. For subsistance fishing they are allowed one fish. They were still hashing out where they are going to draw the boundary, middle of the river or as it has been, just standing in the water.
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Fishhead5
It is not illegal to deplete a fishery by management.
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Gooose
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They can draw the line anywhere they want until they get in court then they can put it where it legally belongs at the ordinary high water mark on the reservation side of the river. The relevant court case is Skokomish Indian Tribe v. E.L. France, 320 F. 2d, 1963. The ownership of the river bottom was adjudicated in that case and the Skokomish tribe doesn't own any of the river below the high water mark. They might find themselves in court though anyway as will any LE officer whom assists them from any jurisdiction under a gross misdemeanor charge for interference with a lawful fishery. 
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Gooose
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Any legal types have access to Westlaw? Be nice to post a link or even better a text copy of that court decision.
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AuntyM
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Uh, if it's all the same to you, I think I'll just take your word for it.
(oh how I wish we hadn't dropped that "legal" insurance policy Caveman had. This would be a good time to test it!)
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Gooose
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Someone might consider filing a claim in Federal court for interference with their civil rights.
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Fishhead5
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That's good to know! They were out tonight writing tickets, not sure if it was for standing in the river or on the bank.
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Fishhead5
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AuntyM
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http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F2/320/205/38835/
Quote:
15
It is the general rule at common law that where the shore or shoreline of a body of navigable water is designated as a boundary, the high water mark is the limit of the boundary line. This rule was established in the early case of United States v. Pacheco, 1865, 2 Wall. 865, 866, 69 U.S. 587, 590, 17 L.Ed. 865, where the Court said:
16
'The position, that by the bay as a boundary, is meant, in this case, the line of low water mark, is equally unfounded. By the common law, the shore of the sea and, of course, of arms of the sea, is the land between ordinary high and low water mark, the land over which the daily tides ebb and flow. When, therefore, the sea or a bay is named as a boundary, the line of ordinary high water mark is always intended where the common law prevails.'
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The Monster Breathes!
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Gooose
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Thanks Marsha!  The Skokomish are well aware that they do not own the river bed. I seriously do suggest that anyone receiving a ticket for doing so consider filing a complaint with the Federal Attorney generals office for violation of your civil rights. You might also consider filing a complaint with the state Attorney generals office in regards to any abuses by the Skokomish LE including such a ticket for your practicing your civil liberties off reservation lands. The new law the legislature passed giving tribal police nontribal authority has requirements that they not abuse that agreement and can have that authority removed for abusing it. If nontribal LE is involved in anyway file a complaint with the AG on that also.
Sorry Skokomish but we have rights also. 
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Gooose
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That all being said I also have to agree with Doug.....I'd much rather fish alongside most of the Skokomish tribal members than majority of those fishing the Skok who have sport licenses.
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Todd R
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I'm with Gooose on this one...they can spray paint the line wherever they want, but there will be a problem if anyone, state or tribal, tries to arrest or ticket an angler standing in the river, on either side of the bank.
Fish on...
Todd
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Gooose
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Aunty thanks also very much for the link to the free access case law site! You just significantly expanded my research and info mining abilities....feeds my addiction.
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AuntyM
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Hmm. Maybe I created a monster? Something tells me we'll all benefit though.
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Tally
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The key word in Marsha's post is "navigable". You may want to see if the Skok is a navigable river. The Kalama is not and we used to own and control access to the center of the river. That one word may be the key.
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AuntyM
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That portion of the Skok fits the legal definition of navigable, since the tribe uses it for commerce ie; using boats to set and retrieve gillnets.
And it wouldn't matter, since the case dealt with the boundaries of the reservation and the court used the "common law" rule of the ordinary high water mark.
I'd say the state AG needs to take a serious look at any claim a tribe makes before they allow their employees to enforce something that does not exist.
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Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
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The Monster Breathes!
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Tally
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You've done the research, AM. We should be able to fish.
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AuntyM
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My understanding of the ruling is that the Skokomish tribe was NOT granted the ownership of the areas in dispute and that they were granted the right to fish and gather shellfish outside the reservation boundaries for subsistance. It was clear that they understood what they were selling at that time. The reservation was for the sole purpose of a "place" to reside, not to "own" the river/tidelands or resource itself.
The river below the ordinary high water mark belongs to the state of Washington, granted to them by the federal government.
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chrome
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Quote:
AuntyM said:
That portion of the Skok fits the legal definition of navigable...
Page 8 (Navigability) of
http://www.wltaonline.org/download/Waterfront%20Titles%20Booklet%20-%202005.pdf
Whether a body of water is navigable depends on its navigability on November 11, 1889, the date Washington became a State. In
other words, the current appearance of a stream or lake (even if it has long since dried up)does not determine its status. If it was navigable
at the date of statehood, the bed would be owned by the State.
There is a great deal of misunderstanding as to the definition of the word “navigable” and the term warrants further discussion.
Chrome.
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AuntyM
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I would venture to say, before the Skok was dammed, that that stretch (tidal influence) would be considered navigable. It probably saw a lot of logs floated down it. The area was already settled in the 1850's and being commercially logged at that time. There were 3 railroads operating within the county, and even Harstine Island, where I live, was being logged in the 1880's.
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Gooose
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Chrome in this particular case the federal court set the boundary for the Skokomish reservation specifically at the highwater mark for the tidal range of the waters bordering it. This includes the tidally affected portion of the river. Issues of navigability are moot and irrelevant.
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Gooose
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Great link to post Chrome. I've been using that reference for years as part of my tidelands ownership work. The one thing people need to also know is that in regards to tidelands the state also sold off most of them to private ownership. Navigability as far as being able to tread upon those lands was lost at the time of sale. State law does not allow trespass upon those private tidelands. In the case of the Skok there are several private tidelands parcels at the mouth of the river to be aware of.
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Salmo_g
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Doug & Goose,
Am I to understand that WDFW agents are citing non-Indian anglers for "trespass" on alleged reservation lands, or is this just the Skokomish Tribal enforcement officers? I have no intention of complying with an authority lacking authority, but that could create an awkward situation.
Sg
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Gooose
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Salmo I do not have first hand information so I'll leave that to Doug.
I do suspect though that WDFW LE, Mason County sheriffs dept., WSP and the Skokomish are now fully aware, if they were not previously, that the tribe has no authority over non tribal sportfishers in the river bed below the ordinary high water mark on the reservation side of the river.
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Fishhead5
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Re: Skok informatiion
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