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Cowlitzfisherman
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Loc: Cowlitz River near Toledo WA
Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a secret!
      #69986 - 08/13/03 04:31 PM

Huge Cowlitz River access area that no one knows about!!


For way to many years now fisherman have been denied their legal rights to use their "public access rights" to the Cowlitz River. Since 2001, I have been pushing WDFW to settle a scam by a local land owner in Lewis County.

For over 12 years now we have been screwed out of our public access to one of, if not the largest public fishing area on the entire Cowlitz River. This public site is referred to by WDFW as the "Wallace Gravel Pit" public use area. Starting back in 2001, I have been bringing this issue to the fishermen's attention and the hope to resolve the scam.

We have been cheated out of our right to access the 1000's of yards of good bank fishing because the guy who sold us (WDFW) the access easement had decided to rock mine the road that we (WDFW) had paid him to do. You will find this thread to be very informative and factual about your right to use your legal access easements to fish.

It all started back in April of 1971 when the Washington Department of Game (WDG) purchased a fishing access easement for the sum of $40,000 dollars. The easement specially states that the easement is granted to WDW and it successors, for a perpetual easement on, over and across a 25 foot strip of land bordering and extending along the left side of the river and bank. It also takes into consideration that the 25foot easement will change as the banks because the river bank may from time to time. The easement goes on to say"…the Game department may, at its discretion, allow the members of the public to enter upon and use the said lands, without restriction or charge by the Grantor, his heirs, or assigns, for the purchase of pedestrian travel and sports fishing" (This is the area that follows the river banks).

In addition to this access easement, WDG also signed into an "agreement" with the owner to do the road and gravel work. The road work consisted of grading an easement road that 4,000 feet long by 60 feet wide. In addition the seller was required to add 9 inched of "ballast rock" and 4 inches of crushed rock on top of that. It also included the grading of a ½ acre parking area with 9 inches of Ballast and 4 inches of crushed rock.

This all made sense because the easement when parallel to the grantors "gravel pit". So the Grantor was not only paid by WDG for the right to enter, use and cross, he also paid for rock and to do the road work.
The picture of the access are is shown below in diagram #1
Diagram #1

So that is how WDG got us this public access to use for fishing. Now I will tell you what the Grantor has done to our access.

It all came to a head in 2001 when I tested out our fishing rights to use the WDFW public access. I knew of it because WDG used to have a 3 foot by 3 foot sign right out in front that was mounted on a telephone pole!

So here's what happen; I didn’t want any other fishermen to get in trouble, or worse yet, get ticketed for trespassing, so after fishing the area around I-5 and Mandy road, I decided to go down to the “Public Fishing Area known as the “Wallace Gravel Pits”, which is located about 1 and 7 tenths of a mile below the I-5 Bridge on Mandy road. I had just met a fly-fishermen at the I-5 Boat Ramp and he asked me if I knew any other area’s that he could fish. I told him that there was another area about 2 miles down on Mandy road right at the sharp bend in the road called “Wallace’s Gravel Pit. As I left the parking lot at I-5, he was getting ready to follow me down.

When I entered the gravel pit, I waved to a guy (I was pretty sure he was the owner) and he waved back. As I drove on down the dirt road that follows the power lines on the left side, I noticed that there had been some cat work about in last 100 yards of the old road. For the last 10 years, that was the area that we had all used to get to the Cowlitz River to fish. I stayed on the far left side of two “trails” until I could no longer travel over it. Because of “the recent cat work” that was done I had stoped. In the last 60 or so feet, I had to cross over to the right side trail (about) 40 feet, and headed down the along the riverbank. I have been there many times before so I knew that I was on state easement reached property near the riverbank area.

Not long after I was fishing, a worker from the gravel pit drove up to me and told me he hated to be the bearer of bad news, but I was "trespassing" and that I had to leave the area right now. I then polity told him that he was “wrong” and that I was on the WDFW fishing public fishing access easement property. He told me that I was wrong, and that I had to leave right now! I again told him about the public access easement and he told me that if I stayed, he would “lock” the gate at the entrance of Mandy road and his pit. I did not want to get into a pi$$ing match about it, so I told him to go ahead and lock the gate, but that I did have a cellular phone in my car, and that I will be calling the Lewis County Sheriffs Office and complaining that I have been locked into a public fishing area by this gravel pit company.

Well, he grove off, and I continue fishing. I thought that the owner would come down next and tell me personally to get the hell out. To my surprise, about a half hour later, a sheriff officer came walking down the river bank and address me by my first name. He had obviously checked my plates and knew exactly who the owned of the car was. I greeted him, and then he asked me if I knew I was “trespassing”? I then proceeded to explain to him the “real truth” about this public fishing access area and the easement. He was also a fisherman and was extremely polite and agreed that this issue needed to be resolved before someone was written a ticket for trespassing when they really weren’t. I told him to call Ray Croswell from WDFW because he was in charge of these public easement fishing sites. He made an attempt, but only got his answering machine. I then told him the name of a local WDFW officer (Mr. Foster) and he tried to contact him. He was not available either. As a last resort, I told him to have his dispatcher contact the region director, Mr. Lee Van Tussenbrock.

I have personally worked with Lee in the combining of states WDF and WDG game laws. As luck was, the dispatcher was able to contact to Mr. Tussenbrock, and verify that there was indeed an easement at the gravel pit, and that it has been there since the 70’s. The officer smiled and said, “Now I have to go back and tell him (the owner) that is misinformed”. The owner of the pit was way out of line, and he knew it! The owner has some real problem with his pit.

According to the original maps, the pit owner mined the original easement road that went right down through the middle of his current pit. That would mean, if someone wanted to push the issue in court that he would have to backfill the easement all the way across his pit. (See pictures below).

--- --
The Pit is well over 38 feet deep all the way across the pond (about 250 yards). It is also my understanding (as stated above) that the owner of this land was paid very well for this easement (over $40,000) in that was in the early 70’s. WDFW has faxed a copy of the easement map to Lewis County Sheriff Office, but like all bureaucratic agencies, it has gotten berried!

Last year (2002), I went back and tested the waters one more time "for the fishermen" at the Wallace Gravel Pits. This is what had happen since that time. It is best addressed in the letter that I had sent to the Lewis County Sheriffs Office, so I will now show you what had happen. The letter will speak for its self!

"Dear Mr. McCroskey:"

(He is the Lewis County Sheriff)

I am very concerned about how your department processed my complaint that was phoned into your office on June 2, 2001 at approximately 7:03 A.M. on Saturday morning. My call to your dispatcher requested that an officer come to my location and verify that a locked gate was blocking my access to a public fishing easement that was owned by the state Fish and Game Department. I also offered the dispatcher a reference case number that was given to me by Lewis County Deputy Fed M. Wetzel.
Deputy Wetzel had filed a report earlier concerning this fishing access to the gravel pit area on May 11, 2001. The dispatcher did not want the case number for any reference. I believe that all your calls are recorded, and that something very similar to what I have stated will be reflected on your recordings.

Sometime around 7:55 A.M., on June the 2, 2001, Deputy Al Meuchel met me at the locked gate located at 654 Mandy Rd. Office Meuchel asked me what my problem was. I explained to him that the Washington Department of Fish and Game has a 60-foot public fishing access easement that runs from the location that we were standing at through the locked gated area all the way down to the Cowlitz River. In addition, I also explained to him that we have a public fishing parking area located next to the river and an additional 25-foot walking easement that started just north of the gated area that runs all the way down river to the County Line area.

I also told Deputy Meuchel that your office should have on file a copy of a report that was failed by Deputy Fred M. Wetzel about 2 weeks ago. That incident occurred while I was fishing on the state owned easement. An employee of the gravel pit drove down to where I was fishing and he told me that I was trespassing and that I had to leave right now. I explained to him that I was on a state owned fishing easement and that I had a right to be there. The employee told me that he was going to lock the gate on me if I didn’t leave right now. I told him that that would not be a good ideal, and that I have a cell phone in my car and that I would call the sheriff, and have them handle it if the gate was locked.

About a half hour later Officer Wetzel came down to where I was fishing and said that the gravel pit owner had called his office and said that I was trespassing on their property. Officer Wetzel was very polite and handled himself very professionally. After checking with his dispatcher, Officer Wetzel was able to confirm that I was not trespassing and that I was legally within my rights to be fishing the area that I was at. Officer Wetzel had the foresight to see that this problem would be an on-going problem with his Office. He had requested from WDFW, and was told that his dispatcher had received a faxed copy of the easement map from WDFW, and that their dispatchers would now known and be alerted that fishermen did have a right to drive down to the river and fish at the states easement areas. He also gave me the case number for my reference, so if I were to have any more problems with accessing the state fishing area his office would only need to check this case for reference (case #01C5448).

When Deputy Al Meuchel arrived, It became immediately obvious that he had already formed an opinion about my complaint. When Deputy Meuchel pulled up along side of the gated area, I told him that the locked gate was blocking a state public fishing area. Strangely enough, the deputy questioned me, to why I didn’t go down river and fish at the other public area. I tried to explain to him that this fishing area was better fishing here and also that it was a much larger area to fish. He then decided that he was not going to make anyone open the gate. In fact, he stated to me, “ I am not going to make anybody open this gate today, It will be up to the county commissions to see if they want to open this gate or not”. I again told him that another deputy had already gone through this issue, and that he had given me the case number so that other deputies could verify access if there was anymore problems. He told me he did not care about the other case, and that this was “going to be decided by the commissioners”.

I told him that this is not a county road easement issue, and that this was a state public fishing easement. I could see that this Deputy, for whatever reason, was not going to do anything about opening the gate that day. I specifically told the deputy that I wanted him to file an official complaint with the sheriff’s office, stating that a locked gate was blocking my access to a public fishing area. I then requested the Deputy to give me his name and the case number of my “complaint”. The deputy then called his dispatcher and got the case number. The deputy gave me his card with the case number on it (case #01C6454).

He then left the area. I also left the area, knowing that I was not going to be able to drive down to the river that morning. About 40 minutes later, when I had returned from fishing another area, I noticed that I had received a call from an unknown number to me. I redialed the number and your dispatch office answered. I told them who I was and they told me that “the gate was now open and I could go back if I wanted to”. I assumed that Deputy Mechel must have contacted the pit owner and had him open the gate. I did not return to the area that day to see if the gate was open or not.

Since Deputy Mechel appeared to be so reluctant to act on my complaint, I decided to see what was really reported as record. On Monday, June 4, 2001, I went to your Chehalis Office and requested to see both case # 01C5448 & #01C6454. The clerk at the desk told me that I would not be able to see the reports today. She said that they were right in the middle of moving all there files and that it was going to take between 1 and 5 days to process it. There was a bunch of Deputies Moving files cabinets around so the delay sounded reasonable to me.

On Tuesday, June 5, I received a call from a lady named “Kathy”. She told me that my requests were ready. I arrived at your new office around 10:AM. It took about 20 minutes before I received service. Kathy gave me copies of the reports. The first report was case #01C5448, which was filed by Deputy Wetzel. After reading Deputy Wetzel report, I believed that he did and excellent job on recording the events that had occurred at the Wallace Brothers Gravel Pit that morning. In fact, I would consider his report as a credit to both you and your office.
I cannot say that about "the complaint" that I had reported to your office on June 2, 2001 (#01C6454). In my opinion, there are serious problems how Deputy Meuchel and other staff handled the filing of his report and the second report that was generated on June 5, 2001. I say this with great caution, but the facts will speak for themselves. When Kathy gave me the 2 reports she told me that only one case (01C5448) actually had a written report filed. She told me that the other case (01C6454) was not really handled that way and that it didn’t really have any written report attached to it. I asked why it didn’t have anything attached to it, because I specifically told Deputy Meuchel that I wanted my complaint filed with the sheriff office in writing. That is why I came in an asked for a copy of it. The deputy told me that he would file my complaint.

I asked Kathy if I could speak to Deputy Meuchel, since I saw him walking around the office, out of uniform. She said that it was his day off, but I was in luck because he was there in the office, right now. I saw him go into a back room. She took back my copy of this so-called report and went to the same room to give it to him. She told me that he would be out to see me in just a few minutes. Well, about 30 minutes later, after watching Kathy go back an forth several different times to the back room Sergeant Patrich C. Smith came out and introduced himself. He was holding a bran-new report that was not there just 30 minutes ago. How could that have happen? The clerk personally told me that there were no other documents filed under case 10C6454. Now, out of nowhere, up pops a new complaint form that had obviously just been generated. There was no explanation to why Deputy Meuchel didn’t come out as requested. There was no explanation as to what had happen to my signed copy of the “other” report.

Sergeant Smith was very polite and very professional and I have no complaint to how he represented your office. Your staffs were very professional, but the facts show that my demand for a written complaint was not done as requested and that the new document was generated after the fact. The Complaint as now written, says nothing about any access to a public easement being blocked, nor does it even mention the Wallace Gravel Pit as the location where the complaint took place. Why is that? Is this policy of your department? I do understand that there are some very long standing names involved in this access issue but that does not change the law, or how the law should be applied.

I now understand that there is some fancy legwork going on by your office saying that it really isn’t your offices responsibility to enforce issues concerning state easements such as the one that exists at the Wallace Gravel Pits. I am sure that your office has history of responding to both Civil and Criminal issues that occur on state lands. We can debate that at a later time. The point is, that was not at issue when I requested Deputy Meuchel to file my complaint on June 2, 2001. It has always been my understanding that a deputy must file a written report when requested by a complainant. It now has the appearance that may not have been done as requested. For all of the reasons that I have address above, I am requesting that you personally do an internal investigation of why my complaint was not filed as originally reported, and how a second report appeared out of nowhere. Your immediate attention to my complaint will be appreciated.

Sincerely,
Bob Reid,
CPR-Fish

Cc: Lee Van Tussenbrook, WDFW regional Director
Ray Croswell, WDFW Regional Lands Program Manager"
============================================================





Well folks that was last year, and three days ago (Monday) at 7:00 pm the gate was still locked! Some heads should be rolling at the very least at both ends!

Right now, it appears that WDFW is incapable of enforcing any laws except the ones that they know can bring them easy money, and easy wins! You have a "right to use" this Public access area, especially since they it was bought and paid for with your license fees. You should never ever let WDFW trade them off for some lesser counter offer by the grantor! It's your fishing easement!! It's time to take back control of the bureaucrats who have screwed us, and now enjoy the use of what little bit of public access that we still have a legal right to use and enjoy on the Cowlitz River!

If you give this one up…..the game is all over for your public access on the Cowlitz!

Below are the pictures that will guide you into this public fishing access area. I will be glad to answer any and all questions that you may have!

It's a damn crime that we fishermen must have to fight for what already belongs to us! Lets all make sure this story has a happy ending.

This the front gate entrance


This is the gate win it looks like it may be lock. Make sure that the "lock pin" in the center of the gate is locked becuase sometimes the "jerk" just keeps the gate closed to fool the public. Do not be affaird to open the gate if it is not loked and dive stright down to the river bank! The Sheriff will not site you for doing so if you say on the road next to the power line poles!


This is the road easement that runs straight down to the Cowlitz River. You must say on the gravel road that runs directly Parallel with the telephone lines. Do not wonder off this road until you reach the river. As it stands right now, you must park your vehicles in this area until the jerks gets his act together!


Good luck and don't let the jerk who owns the rest of the land bull $hill you that you don't have access rights to drive to the river!

Cowlitzfisherman

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pescado
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a secret! new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #69988 - 08/13/03 04:59 PM

That really sucks. First the sell the saltwater beaches below the high tide line, now they won't enforce public easements. Next we won't be allowed to look at the water.

Maybe it's time to have a banktilla down at the Gravel pits?

Or maybe you should make a flyer out of your message and start putting them at other cowlitz accesses?

Edited by pescado (08/13/03 05:01 PM)


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Quillback
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a secret! new [Re: pescado]
      #69990 - 08/13/03 05:18 PM

Yeah, maybe it's time for a "fish-in" down at the gravel pit.

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AuntyM
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a secret! new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #69991 - 08/13/03 05:20 PM

CFM,

Very thourough! I have been following this saga since you first brought it to our attention.

I wonder if you had ever thought to take this to a higher authority than WDFW and forward the entire report along with a complaint to the Attorney Generals office? If Christine Gregoire plans to run for Governor, her office may be looking for cases like this to grab some good press. Just a thought.

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Drifterat
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a secret! new [Re: pescado]
      #69993 - 08/13/03 05:24 PM

Thank you CFM for your ongoing effort to keep us informed and save our, the "sportfishermans", collective arses when it comes to the rivers in your area.

Your diligent research and legwork is appreciated.

Besides e-mailing and or calling the WDFW Regional Office what can a avid Cowlitz fisherperson, that lives up north do to help?

Make it "idiot proof" and we will come... Sad but true...

--------------------
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BBob
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a secret! new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #69998 - 08/13/03 05:42 PM

CFM, Your efforts in this access situation are very much appreciated! Keep up the good work and keep us informed.
This will most likely turn into quite a legal mess for someone. It would be interesting to see if the easement would show up on a title search of any of the lots purchased in the last couple of decades. Hopefully there is still record of the original easement. It seems that would be binding and the deciding factor. Thanks, Bill


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GoooseModerator
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a secret! new [Re: BBob]
      #70003 - 08/13/03 06:15 PM

CFM I've been aware of your posting about this also...I thought it had been cleared up....obviously not.

One letter to the Director of Fish&Wildlife with a cc to all the WDFW commissioners, the Attorney Generals office, your Districts legislators and most important of all the state auditor. Paying for an easement then obviously relinguishing it with no compensation back to the state is a violation of several state statutes. Attach all of what you have to the letter. You will get results from that.

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Ifish4u
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a secret! new [Re: Gooose]
      #70049 - 08/13/03 08:50 PM

Is it just my computer or is the picture of the Wallace pits so big that you have to scroll back and forth to read all the text?

I would like to read the info from CFM but it is just to hard to do with the scrolling.

Can you make it smaller?

Thank you,

Iscroll4u

--------------------


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cupo
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a secret! new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #70053 - 08/13/03 09:45 PM

Excellent effort CFM

--------------------
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MartyAdministrator
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a secret! new [Re: cupo]
      #70061 - 08/13/03 11:21 PM

Outstanding leg work cfm... I like goooses followup idea on the situation. A rather large sign needs to be placed so fishermen can recognize the facility as public acess fishing grounds.

Fp just drag a mouse over it and copy/ paste into notepad. That should fix it up so you can read it.

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fishdoc
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a secret! new [Re: Marty]
      #70068 - 08/14/03 02:59 AM

CFM,
I appreciate your posts and I guess I understand your concern over this but I have enjoyed walking into the gravel bar numerous times. I have left a note on my truck which is parked out of the way stating that I am just using WDFW land which is all of ours and thanked them for allowing me the right to walk over their property to get there. Other times I have checked into that little building "weigh station" and asked where I could park to fish the WDFW property and have always been treated with courteous responses and told the best place for me to park. I for one don't believe that all WDFW needs to be "Blue Creeked", there are a couple of other properties that I have used similar to this one for Duck and Goose Hunting. I am not opposed to it being opened up but I just wanted to let it be known that I haven't had any problems having access. Not being argumentative at all.

doc

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AuntyM
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a secret! new [Re: fishdoc]
      #70074 - 08/14/03 05:08 AM

Quote:


I have left a note on my truck which is parked out of the way stating that I am just using WDFW land which is all of ours and thanked them for allowing me the right to walk over their property to get there.



Sorry Fishdoc, but there is an easement for access that was paid for. There should be NO REASON to have to thank any land owner that made money off said easement for the access. Reading between the lines, it seems almost as if Mr.Gravel Pit owner has treated this as access for a select few good old boys and restricts the rest of us.

Time to put a stop to this. Kudos again CFM!





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Cowlitzfisherman
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: AuntyM]
      #70077 - 08/14/03 06:59 AM

Gooose

When I called WDFW and personally talked to the sergeant in charge of enforcement for this area, he said that he was aware of the problem, but they could not do anything because it was a "civil problem" so no criminal law were being broken. I told him that it was pretty hard to believe that what he was doing was not a criminal violation. He told be that he was experience in real-estate and could not see where any "criminal" laws were being broken.

I did have to come back at him with my simple logic and I asked him; well if I was to cross over a parcel of WDFW land that was shut down for what ever reason, WDFW would site me for criminal trespass. He said it all depended if they owned the land or not.

I am quickly forming the strong opinion that WDFW enforcement is a worthless bunch over paid and under worked bureaucrats!
==============================================================
Fishdoc

You say; "I guess I understand your concern over this but I have enjoyed walking into the gravel bar numerous times." A couple thing about what you say bothers me a little. It's great that YOU enjoy the 4000 foot joint to the river bank, but that just you. The picture is much bigger then just what you or I might like to do. WDFW bought that easement so that "all of the states people" could use it, and that means the poor fishermen that may be partially disabled!

It may be OK for a young guy to walk 4000 feet to the river but it sure isn't OK for someone that may an even a small walking disorder. That's why the state purchased the easement and the ½ acre! It was mean for everyone to be able to drive reasonably close to the river. When I first brought this issue up, I could have had this huge public fishing area pretty much to my self if I would have chosen to keep my mouth shut about it. I was offered "a key" by the owner to his locked gate if I would drop the issue and let it lay!

That was plain bull $hit and I told the owner right to his face that it was bull $hit! It's our easement and we have right to use it. When you get into your late 50, 60, or 70's try carrying your rod, fishing gear, and a 10-15 pound fish well over 4000 feet in the dead of winter or summer. Hell, I have trouble doing now and I am only 57!

People who are doing what you are purposing to be done are just letting this jerk think that he can continue to screw the rest of the public from their use of a legal easement to the river.

Aunty, you are 150% right on!!

Cowlitzfisherman


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Lupo
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #70097 - 08/14/03 08:22 AM

where are the wdfws's attorneys? and they call themselves a law enforcement group? that is a total cop out about being a civil issue. that just means that it is wdfw's issue and they cant use the cops to enforce their agreement. they got screwed by this guy(and all of us) and now they arnt willing to go after the guy who screwed them(us).
seems like if they caught a poacher(anywhere) who fought them in court, they would show up with a gaggle of lawyers. but the funds from the sale of 1000 licenses went to pay for this in the 70's... that is like taking the funds from 3500 licenses today and burning it! this man stole $40,000 from us all and is getting away with it!!! and they are getting away with it because the WDFW does not care at all about the rights of sportsfishermen.... because they are a chip off the ole block that does not care at all about the rights of the taxpayer. this gravel pit is should be held liable for treble damages on the original amount totalling $120,000 for breach of contract, plus the gravel pit should be forced to remain as an easement even after re-paying the amount for the same period of time that they stole from the taxpayer. cfm you hippie activist! I love you!

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Lupo]
      #70126 - 08/14/03 10:21 AM

Thinking out loud here:

Civil matter? Hmmmmm. This could be the ammo we need.
I'm not an attorney but I can spell the word.
If officially deemed not a criminal matter, then it opens the flood-gates to that nasty phrase no business ever wants to hear:
Class-Action Suit.

If the WDFW (read the public) owns the property, and the expressed intent was to provide access to the angling public, then those with disabilities (and that's a very broad legal definition now) are effectively barred from accessing public land.
What, if any, are the WDFW funded improvements to the site? Is there any reasonable access for disabled anglers (Pete's club is not what I mean) if the gate were to be open?
I think a real strong case would hinge on whether or not there are any taxpayer funded improvements. Then again, that didn't seem to make any difference of late with stadiums etc (this being Gary Locke's fiefdom) - red herring
Perhaps enough political/legal pressure could be applied to force the issue and give him the option to repurchase the land (at current market prices) Faced with that kind of a business decision and an 'out' he may acquiesce and 'allow' access. Better that (for him) than defend against legal action.
I'm sure this is not the only like situation in the state, maybe we can expose a few more.





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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a secret! new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #70131 - 08/14/03 10:36 AM

Wow that is pretty crummy if you ask me. I am new to fishing period and didn't even know these problems existed. Thanx CFM

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pescado
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a secret! new [Re: rtlees]
      #70139 - 08/14/03 10:52 AM

What's a gravel quarry doing so close to a river anyway? It seems like something that could easily silt up the river. Maybe someone should call the EPA?

And yes, I'm aware that they are usually next to rivers. But there may be plenty of ways to make this guy's life miserable.

Maybe someone should contact the Seattle P.I. or an Olympia newspaper. They might do a story on it.

Edited by pescado (08/14/03 10:56 AM)


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Kurt F
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a secret! new [Re: rtlees]
      #70145 - 08/14/03 11:05 AM

Workin, you took the words right out of my mouth. Accessibility is what it's about, and I think that is a strong card to play in this.

Great work CFM.


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pu-rvr-fishr
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a secret! new [Re: Kurt F]
      #70152 - 08/14/03 11:36 AM

I would be willing to participate in a "fish in". Perhaps we could get 30-40 people together and let the local media know what's going on.

I bet the negative publicity for Wallace would open his mind if not the gate!


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a secret! new [Re: pu-rvr-fishr]
      #70153 - 08/14/03 11:44 AM

i think we should have as steelheader.net fish down there whith every single one of use. lets see how they feel about it.

vwguy


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a secret! new [Re: vwguy2004]
      #70161 - 08/14/03 12:19 PM

Everyone be careful down there, this is still a mine with large equipment that cant see small cars very well, dont drive down there without some kind of awareness to your surroundings. I think we definitely should be able to use it, but I think that this should be done safely as well.

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Im just going to go fishing for a couple of hours;) or <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> = , honey. I`ll be back before you wake up.


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: vwguy2004]
      #70164 - 08/14/03 12:36 PM

Personally, the only way you are going to get the WDFW to move on this is to take a page from Trout Unlimited's methods and send them a letter of intent to sue if the condition is not corrected.

Then back up your words and sue them after the stated time frame has expired.

Since this guy was paid to build the road and parking lot, t and for easements and fishing rights, he is in affect stealing from every single taxpayer in the state. Not only that, but you could consider the State as actually subsidizing his business by providing him with road building funds without being compensated for them.



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Cowlitzfisherman
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Buzzy]
      #70171 - 08/14/03 01:38 PM

I talked to the local WDFW enforcement officer today and he said that the owner of the gravel pit had told him that the "floods" of 95-96 washed away the easement road! These guys are so screwed up that the left doesn't know even know that it's got another hand!!

Below is a sketch from the files of WDFW that shows that they knew the gravel pit owner had mined the easement road. As you can see, the legal easement now is in the middle of the gravel pond and WDFW proposed new easement is the one I told you to use in the pictures! It just goes to show you the "lack" of communication between the management and the enforcement officers who are suppose to make sure that are easement remain open.

The enforcement officer even suggested that the state should let the owner have this property back even after I had told him that it had cost over 40,000 dollars to purchase in 1971 dollars!

We are really going to need to get the emails going pretty soon, or I can see WDFW trading off this fantastic fishing area for some piece of junk that is next to worthless. They have already tried doing this with the owner in 1997, but thankfully it apparently fail through (thank your lucky selves).

Maybe we all need to have one big BBQ fish-in just to keep our access open!


Cowlitzfisherman

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Buzzy
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #70178 - 08/14/03 03:29 PM

I find it kind of funny that no one has mentioned the department of ecology regarding this mine. I am sure, that if you go look, that when he initially got his permit approved that he was given restrictions regarding how close he could mine to the river,restrictions on silt control and other things. If his permit has been renewed there were probably additional restrictions placed on him.

There is one mine here near Mckenna that has had some big troubles over not meeting permit conditions.. There is also some type of consortium which has sued the State over dishcarge permits not being met when it comes to Rivers and Treatment plants and such.

Another seasonal mine in the Puyallup River system was shut down not too long ago, where they would go in and mine gravel bars every year.

Given the size of the fishery in the Cowlitz River, and the state of Salmon and Steelhead since some recent court decisions regarding native fish, I can see where a connection could be made between the National Marine Fisheries act requirements regarding endagered species and Open Pit mines such as this one.

It comes to my mind that if you are not getting much cooperation from the state regarding an established access point, that you may need to approach it from a different direction, and try to get him shut down from the ecological side of this.

By the way, the ecological group that has sued the State regarding discharge permits has not lost a case yet.

This mine HAS to have a discharge permit issued by the State of Washington, and as such it is available to anyone under the freedom of information act.

--------------------
Grant

Yes dear, I know buying them is cheaper....


Edited by Buzzy (08/14/03 03:32 PM)


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Buzzy
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Buzzy]
      #70191 - 08/14/03 04:09 PM

One other thing comes to mind, many do not know it, but the State and County have been using Satellite Imagery for years to compare photo's to see who is adding buildings and such to their property and not paying property tax.

What do you want to bet there is imagery available showing the existing mining pond before the 1996 floods? If so what would be the chance it would show the easement road already mined?




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pescado
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Buzzy]
      #70196 - 08/14/03 04:47 PM


Here's a sattelite photo from 1990 that clearly shows the easement was already mined by that time:

http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?t=1&s=12&x=632&y=6423&z=10&w=2



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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Buzzy]
      #70197 - 08/14/03 04:49 PM

Fish In?

Sounds like fun...

Civil Disobedience and Fishing...Good times for sure...



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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Drifterat]
      #70199 - 08/14/03 05:01 PM

CFM don't bother with trying to get the local wdfw staff to resolve this problem....they obviously don't want too. As I suggested take it to the top.

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pescado
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Drifterat]
      #70200 - 08/14/03 05:04 PM


I just emailed Gayla Lord requesting any public records regarding Wallace Rock Products.

The address of Wallace Rock Products is:
580 Mandy Rd
Toledo, WA


I encourage other to send email to various members of the dept. of ecology. Here is a good link for this:
http://www.ecy.wa.gov/services/as/iss/disclose/coordinators.html



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Cowlitzfisherman
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: pescado]
      #70206 - 08/14/03 05:55 PM

pescado, Buzzy

Thanks for the heads up, but I had already found that site and I had downloaded a bunch of the pictures in 2001. Funny that you guys would bring that up, because that is exactly what I had told the enforcement officer this morning! I told him that WDFW better look in the DNR photos and go back each year to see just how full of BS the owner was. It appears that some of these WDFW guys are not to smart upstairs

I sure do appreciate everyone's advice and comments. Together I believe that we will remain a force that will get this access area opened back up again! In numbers we are strong, individually we fall, and WDFW is apparently counting on it!

Thanks again for everyone's support and suggestions.

Cowlitzfisherman


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #70208 - 08/14/03 06:08 PM

CFM have you considered that Wallace may have gotten a property tax reduction because of the public easement?
You may want to query your county assessor?

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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain

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Buzzy
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #70217 - 08/14/03 06:40 PM

I recognize one of the names on that list of ecology folks as the wife of a guy I was in the service with, think I will call him...

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fishdoc
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #70220 - 08/14/03 06:49 PM

OK, I stand corrected and rightfully so.

So...CFM...I understand the access issue but do you know what the agreement was as far as keeping his business safe?? I mean if there is 24/7 access it really opens the door to some vandalism. Could WDFW since I don't think there has ever been any improvements there put in a seperate fence to effectively create good access and a secure business. I also think that a push in regards to the legal rights of the handicap is a ticket that could really be the key.

doc

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If we always do what we've always done, we'll always get what we've always gotten.


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woodsy
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: fishdoc]
      #70274 - 08/14/03 11:08 PM

I would think that since this guy is worried about his property it would be his responsibilty to fence it off.

If I'm worried about the neighbors or people on the street the county sure isn't going to come put a fence up for me.


But I'm liking this handicap accessible idea. Might be worthy of looking to e-mailing a couple of the disability organizations. Quite a few of them are always looking for something.

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Gary_T
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: woodsy]
      #70305 - 08/15/03 06:30 AM

I think fencing off our area so that it's very obvious and without confusion as to what is his to mine and what is ours to use is a great idea, however I think that we must demand the fencing be put in the proper place which I believe is now in the middle of his pit. So we need a couple of things...

1. fill the pit
2. rebuild the road so that we have our original access path
3. build a fence on both sides of our access road
4. pay treble damages for breach of contract

I think the money collected from #4 should go back into this area in some way. Either directly into this easement in the form of some sort of improvement for fishing (maybe a handicap dock of some sort if that's possible), or used in some other way to benefit the Cowlitz river.

What I see happening is the new road is what we'll end up with rather than where our original access road was. Is the new road better than what we had before as far as location? If not, we need to ensure that in the end we get our old road back and not let the state accept anything less. This guy is most likely running a pretty profitable business and may have made a few "key" donations along the way to people in important places and we need to keep that in mind.

One other thing that I thought of is since we have a right to the original easement which included an access road in a very specific place which he has since mined, is that not criminal tresspass on his part? There must be some law that we can get him on in civil court since he's mined our freakin road! Tresspass is when your on the property... but what about when you remove the property? Is it theft of part of the easement and now tresspass since he's setup part of is operation where the road should be?

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Cowlitzfisherman
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: woodsy]
      #70306 - 08/15/03 06:48 AM

Fishdoc

When WDFW bought that access site, the pit was nothing like it is now! The owner should now be the one with the reasonability to fence off his working site when he has expanded in the way that he has. Yes WDFW could put in a separate fence, but since the owner has stolen the gravel back (4000 x 60 of road ballast and crushed rock)and was paid $40,000 of our fishing funds. Wouldn't you think that HE should be the one who is now responsible for putting up the fence?

He has not meant his commitment of the contract. This is what the agreement states:

Basically, this is the exact wording as stated in the agreement:

"The parties hereto agree to the development as follows:
(Parcel A)" (these are the parcels that we are talking about)

"1) Clear Four Thousand (4000) feet of road, 60 feet wide, containing in all in all 5.5 acres,
2) Ballast roadway a dept of Nine (9) inches,
3) Surface roadway with Four (4) inches of crushed rock,
4) Grade roadway suitable for public vehicle traffic, or County and State specifications,

(Parcel B) The Grantor will
1) Clear One-Half (1/2) acre in area,
2) Ballast said parcel with nine (9) inches of ballast,
3) Surface said area with Four (4) inches of crushed rock,
4) Grade said roadway suitable for public vehicle traffic, or County and State specifications.

The agreement also notes that "It is further understood that payment for full acquisition of said easements will be made following the final inspection and acceptance of the development to be made by the Stat's engineers.

It is further understood that the State will:
1) Upon completion of the development, relieve the Grantor of further labiality for development or maintenance, and
2) Complete all other necessary development features as monies are programmed. This shall include the fencing on one side of the access road with sheep-type fencing.

Regardless of what you may have been told by the pit owner, this is the "legal binding" document that counts. I have also heard from the State that the Pit owner has also claimed that the state had agreed to install a "security" type light in the parking area too, but yet there is no mention of this in any of the registered agreements. This guy has done hundreds of agreements and contracts and he damn well knew if it wasn't in writing, you're not going to get it!

I find it funny is that this jerk now is claiming that state didn't meet their end of the agreement because they never installed a light that was never part of the agreement, or the sheep fencing on one side of the 60 foot easement that HE remove.

Legally, the contract specifically states the other developments if any, would not occur until there were "monies" "programmed" to do so. That allows the state the flexibility to do it when every the state felt like it was time to do so. It does not let the "Grantor" be the person who decides when the state will or will not "program" funds.

How would you expect the state to fence a easement that is 40 foot under water? Clearly you can see the picture of where the easement road was originally at. We know for sure, that he has lied about the floods "taking out the easement" by the fact that the road was removed by the pit owner at least prior to 1990. This guy has gotten caught in his own lie and yet he still knows how to jerk the state around.

At the same time that this project was being performed, the States record also show that the Pit owner had not meet his contractual comments of placing the appropriate amount of crushed rock down. In fact, at the other boat ramp site, the pit owner was required in the agreement to lay down 4 inches of crushed rock for the surface. The State engineers found that after sampling the surface in four different areas, that there was only "0" to 3 ½ inches. It didn't even meet what the agreement had required.
And when the state tested both the upper and lower levels of the project, they found that the sampling of the ballast rock did not meet ballast specifications.

So it's just beyond me why WDFW doesn't force the Pit owner to open back up our access!

In my opinion, this guy is nothing more than a conniver who knows how to jerk the state around!!

I do not understand why WDFW has not taken this jerk to Mine Safety and Heath Administration (MSHA) and requested that this jerk fence off the states "legal easement" to protect the public from his operation! I like to see how he would answer that one, especially since the easement is now under more then 40 feet of water. What is wrong with the guff balls in WDFW?

The law requires a "mining operation" to take certain precautions to protect the "public" from their operations. So what is the story?

Cowlitzfisherman


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CCA Your Best Bet For The Fish

Edited by Cowlitzfisherman (08/15/03 07:03 AM)


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rtlees
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #70312 - 08/15/03 07:15 AM

CFM what can we do? Or what should we do now?

Thanx


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RTLEES
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kalani
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a secret! new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #70337 - 08/15/03 08:42 AM

Thank you CFM for not backing down 1 inch. please keep us informed on what we can do. mahalo!

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Cowlitzfisherman
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: kalani]
      #70415 - 08/15/03 03:59 PM

I do not think that WDFW has yet to consider what is stated in the:
"ADA Title II: State and Local Government Activities states"!

Title II covers all activities of State and local governments regardless of the government entity's size or receipt of Federal funding. Title II requires that State and local governments give people with disabilities an equal opportunity to benefit from all of their programs, services, and activities (e.g. public education, employment, transportation, recreation, health care, social services, courts, voting, and town meetings).

State and local governments are required to follow specific architectural standards in the new construction and alteration of their buildings. They also must relocate programs or otherwise provide access in inaccessible older buildings, and communicate effectively with people who have hearing, vision, or speech disabilities. Public entities are not required to take actions that would result in undue financial and administrative burdens. They are required to make reasonable modifications to policies, practices, and procedures where necessary to avoid discrimination, unless they can demonstrate that doing so would fundamentally alter the nature of the service, program, or activity being provided.

Complaints of title II violations may be filed with the Department of Justice within 180 days of the date of discrimination. In certain situations, cases may be referred to a mediation program sponsored by the Department. The Department may bring a lawsuit where it has investigated a matter and has been unable to resolve violations.
If they try to give this area back to the grantor, or relocate it to a lesser recreational opportunity for all parties, they are surly headed for a legal battle! They have some time to make up their minds, but it's already been three years without any action by the State! If the state gives or trades this access site off without full public impute, It's appears that the citizens of the state may heading to court . . . what a wastes of our time and our fishing tax dollars!

In addition, the law requires WDFW under these RCW's to do this:


RCW 64.04.130
Interests in land for purposes of conservation, protection, preservation, etc. -- Ownership by certain entities -- Conveyances.
A development right, easement, covenant, restriction, or other right, or any interest less than the fee simple, to protect, preserve, maintain, improve, restore, limit the future use of, or conserve for open space purposes, any land or improvement on the land, whether the right or interest be appurtenant or in gross, may be held or acquired by any state agency, federal agency, county, city, town, or metropolitan municipal corporation, nonprofit historic preservation corporation, or nonprofit nature conservancy corporation. Any such right or interest shall constitute and be classified as real property. All instruments for the conveyance thereof shall be substantially in the form required by law for the conveyance of any land or other real property.

As used in this section, "nonprofit nature conservancy corporation" means an organization which qualifies as being tax exempt under 26 U.S.C. section 501(c)(3) (of the United States Internal Revenue Code of 1954, as amended) as it existed on June 25, 1976, and which has as one of its principal purposes the conducting or facilitating of scientific research; the conserving of natural resources, including but not limited to biological resources, for the general public; or the conserving of natural areas including but not limited to wildlife or plant habitat.

As used in this section, "nonprofit historic preservation corporation" means an organization which qualifies as being tax exempt under 26 U.S.C. section 501(c)(3) of the United States Internal Revenue Code of 1954, as amended, and which has as one of its principal purposes the conducting or facilitating of historic preservation activities within the state, including conservation or preservation of historic sites, districts, buildings, and artifacts.

RCW 64.04.175
Easements established by dedication -- Extinguishing or altering.
Easements established by a dedication are property rights that cannot be extinguished or altered without the approval of the easement owner or owners, unless the plat or other document creating the dedicated easement provides for an alternative method or methods to extinguish or alter the easement

RCW 47.30.010
Recreational trail interference.
(1) No limited access highway shall be constructed that will result in the severance or destruction of an existing recreational trail of substantial usage for pedestrians, equestrians or bicyclists unless an alternative recreational trail, satisfactory to the authority having jurisdiction over the trail being severed or destroyed, either exists or is reestablished at the time the limited access highway is constructed. If a proposed limited access highway will sever a planned recreational trail which is part of a comprehensive plan for trails adopted by a state or local governmental authority, and no alternative route for the planned trail exists which is satisfactory to the authority which adopted the comprehensive plan for trails, the state or local agency proposing to construct the limited access highway shall design the facility and acquire sufficient right of way to accommodate future construction of the portion of the trail which will properly lie within the highway right of way. Thereafter when such trail is developed and constructed by the authority having jurisdiction over the trail, the state or local agency which constructed the limited access highway shall develop and construct the portion of such trail lying within the right of way of the limited access highway.

(2) Where a highway other than a limited access highway crosses a recreational trail of substantial usage for pedestrians, equestrians, or bicyclists, signing sufficient to insure safety shall be provided.

(3) Where the construction or reconstruction of a highway other than a limited access highway would destroy the usefulness of an existing recreational trail of substantial usage for pedestrians, equestrians, or bicyclists or of a planned recreational trail for pedestrians, equestrians, or bicyclists incorporated into the comprehensive plans for trails of the state or any of its political subdivisions, replacement land, space, or facilities shall be provided and where such recreational trails exist at the time of taking, reconstruction of said recreational trails shall be undertaken.

And finally,

After the pit owner has told the enforcement officers, and all other WDFW officials that the easement road was removed by the 95-96 floods, one would think that this law would also apply to the pit owner;

RCW 9A.76.175
Making a false or misleading statement to a public servant.
A person who knowingly makes a false or misleading material statement to a public servant is guilty of a gross misdemeanor. "Material statement" means a written or oral statement reasonably likely to be relied upon by a public servant in the discharge of his or her official powers or duties

So what do you think we should do?

Cowlitzfisherman


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Edited by Cowlitzfisherman (08/15/03 04:14 PM)


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #70427 - 08/15/03 04:45 PM

Maybe next time I gripe about the millions WDFW is spending on aquisitions, folks will remember this instance and not be so quick to defend the purchases.

Wouldn't it be nice to know how many other access spots are inaccessible because of crooked land owners?

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: kalani]
      #70428 - 08/15/03 04:54 PM

I have to chime in on this one so I'll play devils advocate.
The site is not a secret nor has it ever been, it is still listed in WDFW publications and on there web site as a public fishing access.
Forcing the issue of handicap accessibility is only going to get a response of closing it for lack of funding by the state. It will end up getting dumped just like the Hood Canal bridge access.
Forcing WRP out of business is also a stupid idea. Sand and gravel facilities employ over 850 workers in our state with each of those jobs supporting 67 other construction related jobs. How many people do you think they employ? You don't care, your jobs not at stake, because you don't even live there. The DNR, DOE, MSHA and many others visit this site each year. If you think telling them that WRP is operating illegally, dumping silt in the river, or mining to close to it you than you had better do your homework. The gravel pit was there before 1971, therefor they could be grandfathered in on a lot of there operations. Did any one stop to think maybe the easement was sold in exchange for some of their rights? Did they sell there right to mine in the river or against its banks to protect your fish? Shoreline and many other permits before the '70s didn't have an expiration date so they don't have to be renewed. Yes, they mined the easement without putting in a new one but another can be built. Imagine what this property could be for your grandchildren. Twin lakes park in Arlington, Fort Borst park in Centralia and Friends Landing in Montesano were all gravel pits and after the reclamation are some of our favorite to enjoy. The list goes on. Look at all the lakes and ponds along I-5, they were all gravel pits used to build it and so much more. Since 1985 less than 40 new surface mines have been permitted, while almost 700 have been depleted or reclaimed. To start a new mine you'll have to get as many as 50 federal, state, and local permits, take as long as five years to get them and may cost as much as five million dollars. So get the DOE in there and lets see if they can get rid of these gravel pits. They've done a good job ridding us of our family farms. (How much are you paying for your milk these days? Does it taste like it came from genetically perfected cows eating a scientifically perfected diet? It should be perfect. But doesn't taste like it used to.) Not to mention some of our other businesses they helped get rid of for our own good. Without the safety training you and WRP would be cited, even for just walking through to the river. Remember it's an easement, in an active mine. They're only trying to protect themselves, you, their equipment and their future. The laws have surpassed the times in which we live.
Working with WRP is our best solution. Maybe fire up your printers write some letters and put some pressure on them to build a new easement that's not going to interfere with there operations. The "mob mentality" of a bunch of guys going there to cause trouble but act like there there to fish is only going to "cause trouble". The amazing part to me is how few of you have actually gone there to fish. Granted it makes it hard with a gate and no signs but if people would have used the site from its inception the problem wouldn't exist today.


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: donno]
      #70432 - 08/15/03 05:13 PM

So let's see them put in a new easement to replace the one they obviously did not have the legal right to remove or alter....simple as that. Lack of use is not a permit to do what they have done. Safety is not an issue as long as Wallace does not use the easement other than for transportation and as long as the public has a clearly marked road to the river. Advertising it as public access and allowing that access to be blocked at the same time is kinda of lacking in commonsense.

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Gooose]
      #70440 - 08/15/03 06:10 PM

Donno this is what you are referring to from the WDFW website? Yups clearly there buried on the Hunting page and then scrolling way down you find it under "Wildlife Areas and Water Access Sites."

"Wallace Lewis From I-5 take exit 57, go west through intersection (Rogers Road) 1.1 miles to Mandy Road, go 0.5 miles, turn left into access road, access road goes through gravel pit 0.5 miles to parking area. Bank fishing only."

This says you can go there and drive on an access road thru the pit to a parking area. You sem to be fairly familiar with this issue so I put the questions to you....what access road is WDFW referring too?....and what parking area? There's no mention of a gate, or need for a key, amphibious vehicle, or any kind of disclosure other than a general disclaimer in fine print at the beginning of the entire page.

This advertisement of a public access is misleading to the taxpayers who paid for it and who might want to use it if they accessed this info from the WDFW website that they paid for also. I know I'd be mighty pissed if I used that info as part of a vacartion plan. No attack on you personally donno but since you brought the info to our attention maybe you could provide further elaboration?

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Gooose]
      #70443 - 08/15/03 06:30 PM

I was doing some research and reading today, and one of the things I discovered is that if a public road in WA has not been used for 5 years that ownership of it reverts to the owner of the property.

I don't know what affect the public being blocked from using it would be to the law, which is very new by the way.

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Gooose]
      #70444 - 08/15/03 06:30 PM

Quote:

How many people do you think they employ? You don't care, your jobs not at stake, because you don't even live there.




That's about the weakest and most pathetic thing I have read on this board since.... well, in a while anyway.

The responsibility for those jobs rest on the shoulders of the employer/crook who is trying to rip off the tax payers of Washington and the fishermen/women who might want to go someplace besides Blue Creek.

There is simply no excuse for what is being withheld from the public. If safety WERE an issue, then it should have been dealt with by using signs and fencing it off.

Wrong is wrong, and no amount of excuses will make it right.



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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Gooose]
      #70461 - 08/15/03 07:49 PM

I don't know if you're asking honest questions or just being an ass but I'll answer in case it's the former.
Yes that's it. It can be accessed through the "Fishing/Shellfish" link also.
The directions on the website are the same as they were when the WDFW used to print the information. It's apparent the information has never been updated for that site. I'm sure lazyness and cost prevailed when the site went online. (Like back in the early days when a map maker put a lake in the wrong spot and the next guy copied it. It would show up in the wrong place for hundreds of years.)
The road and parking lot areas have been mined and are no longer there. If they were ever there to begin with. The owner would know as if he were smart he would have had arial photos taken each year of the pit. I believe the government requires an active mine be gated and inaccessable during non operating hours. The access should have been designed so as not to use the same road as the mine.
I have and still do spend a lot of rainy weekends exploring different areas I may want to return to fish. That's how I first found that site. There was a sign in a tree saying WDFW. The gate was there then (early to mid '90s) but not seeing how to access it and being respectful of other peoples property I didn't jump the gate to further my quest. It wasn't until quite some time later I ended up there again on a day when they were open and I had the opportunity to ask the guy there where it was. He pointed out how to get there. I don't remember if I asked if I could drive in to it or not. I do remember I walked in to check it out though. It didn't have any more to offer than the ramp further downstream or the one under I-5.
I didn't know WDFW had an easement through the property nor did I care. If I did I don't feel I would have pressed the issue anyway. Thinking of it now it might be a good place to put in or take out my pontoon boat for a short drift rather than bringing the big boat down.
Don't get me wrong, I am sympathetic to your cause. I feel WRP was negligent and should be held accountable to follow through with their obligations. But as I first stated I was portraying Devils Advocate so that people could see they may not be reading between the lines. A good example is when TV news first showed WDFW employees killing retuning steelhead 90% of you were outraged at them till you were told the fish were geneticaly inferior to wild fish and shouldn't be let to spawn with them. Now your happy but is it because you know the truth, or because you think you know?


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: donno]
      #70462 - 08/15/03 08:03 PM

Well donno if you bothered to read this thread from the beginning you would know that WDFW does have an easement....I certainly always ask honest questions and certainly don't come off as an ass or piss on my own boots. Nice opening two posts....welcome to the board and please read the entirety of a thread before coming off as being a ....what did you refer to me as possibly being?

From what I've read of CFM's posts regarding this subject he has everything well documented including the fact that there was an actual useable easement....DNR aerial photographs sure don't lie. ...and they sure wouldn't lie about what was done. BTW CFM if you need backup aerial photo proof the Army Corps of Engineers also keeps an excellent set of aerial photos of that area of the river .

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Gooose]
      #70464 - 08/15/03 08:10 PM

Something else to consider. This gravel pit owner was well compensated. $40,000.00 isn't much today, but in 1971, when this agreement was negotiated, it was a bunch.

Preventing access as agreed to is no different than granting an easement for a state highway and then throwing a gate across it.




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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: AuntyM]
      #70466 - 08/15/03 08:16 PM

I wonder what that easement would cost today? Quarter million maybe?

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Gooose]
      #70486 - 08/16/03 04:49 AM

I did read the post in its entirety. My statement of "if they were there to begin with" simply says Did the land owner build the road and the parking lot as originally agreed to? The terraserver images are from 1990 not 1972 when the work would have been going on or completed. Roads in gravel pit change yearly depending on the needs of the operation. Things could be completely differant there today.
I can see why I never posted here before. Remind me if I make the mistake again.


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: donno]
      #70489 - 08/16/03 05:14 AM

Is this fishing related?????

Seems pretty political to me...it certainly has access rights to a river that is fishable behind it but it seems it has a better home than here...but who am I.


I just don't like to see things get a little dicey on the main forum, read or potentially read by all.


Donno, I liked your devils advocate point of view but then again I was raised with that thinking process flowing freely in our home. As you are probably aware, Devils Advocate thinking isn't appreciated in the public sector and it is certainly almost not allowed in the internet fishing world.


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: fishdoc]
      #70491 - 08/16/03 07:10 AM

Donno you bring up some good points, and frankly both sides are needed.

I found myself thinking about the jobs angle before you ever posted it.

However, CFM stated that an employee of the mine came down to the river and told him he would have to leave, that he was trespassing. If an employee of the company has stated such, then the company must have a policy to that affect.
Yes, I have run across employees of some companies that are a little too zealous and try to make policy for their employers, the difference here is that the next time CFM tried to access the site it was gated off.
Which makes it appear as if the company attempts to enforce a no trespassing policy upon legal users of the WDFW site.

In such case it would become the responsibility of the owner to accept what the consequences of that action would be, up to an including the closing of his mine if that were the case.

The fishing public did not force him to accept funds from the State for an easement, and frankly his signature must appear on the papers assigning that easement so he can't say he was not aware of the requirements to protect his active mining site or the public who would be using this access.

This could all be made to go away if the owner of the mine would restore access to the site for EVERYONE, not just handicapped. By that I mean LEGAL access.

My father has two fake knees, which are worn out and no doctors will replace again, so he can not walk very far. Why should he not be able to fish a public access site when the easement that should allow him to do so was paid for using tax money that he helped provide? Just because the owner of a site decided he wanted to mine the parking lot and roadway that he had already been paid to build?

I find myself thinking that is a pretty slick business operation, give an easement, get paid to build a road and parking lot on it, then mine it when he wants to earn money on it again and lock everyone out so they can't see what happened, much less use it as intended and paid for.

Even if the easement was sold to the State for some of the "rights" as you suggested, that does not change the owners responsibility to live up to agreements that he has made, and accepted public money for.

You ask me to imagine what this property could be for my grandchildren. If the owner is not forced to change I see it as a private parcel with no public access.

You also are upset with a change in tactics from pressure on WDFW to pressure to have him shut down.

Tell me, what pressure points do the public have on this guy when WDFW has already stated they see the problem but are not doing anything about it. When the agents that they have visiting the site and contacting the public are so misinformed that they believe the owners statement that the access was "washed away in the flood of 1996" without at least attempting to discern if it is true.

It is obvious to me that if anything will be done here, then it will take pressure on the owner from all points. it will also take pressure on the State.

The state does not have any funds to pursue this matter, nor do they have the funds to properly maintain the sites they do have or the new ones they are adding, like the $400,000 dollars that Marilyn Rasmussen got included in this last State budget to purchase property from Weyerhauser at the confluence of the Mashell and Nisqually rivers for a new State park. Strange they have money for new stuff yet many older areas are being closed because the money for upkeep is not there.

I am getting off track here so I will close. I can see your points Donno, I just believe that the other points outweigh them.




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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Buzzy]
      #70492 - 08/16/03 07:47 AM

fishdoc,
You asked the board this; "Is this fishing related?????
Seems pretty political to me...it certainly has access rights to a river that is fishable behind it but it seems it has a better home than here...but who am I"

fishdoc, here is your answer:
Apparently Marty thinks it is!Marty wrote: "Yes do tell me about the secret cow access."




Gooose, Aunty and Buzzy

Job well done! All of you have given some excellent replies to donno!!

Donno, It sounds like your are playing just a tad bit more then a "devils advocate" on this one.

You made a made a bunch of assumptions and have now implied them as facts. Since I have already done a public records request to WDFW over three years ago, and I have personally met with WDFW Regional Lands Program Manager numerous times before he retired this year, I can safely say that I have the same information that both the Grantor and WDFW has.

So what I will tell you is going to be pretty hard for you or anyone else to put a spin to.

Like gooose has so well said; what happens when a poor fisherman plans a fishing trip down to public listed site (Wallaces pit) and drives through the gate that is open because his trucks are hauling away (our old gravel that we paid him for in the easement agreement) the gravel? That’s exactly what has happen when I drove down there 3 years ago!

I was threatened by pit employees that I WAS TRESPASSING! They even called the local sheriff and lied to them and tired to have me arrested for trespassing. That's when this access issue all came to head. Like gooos said, you should have read the opening thread before you started playing the "devils advocates". No one was trying to interrupt his operations, or did they attempt to use any other part of his pit except the roadway to the river.

You say "Forcing the issue of handicap accessibility is only going to get a response of closing it for lack of funding by the state." Since it was the owner of the pit who has taken away what the state had paid for, it sure would be reasonably for the state to require the pit owner to bring back the road and the parking area to any new state requirements for the handicap. I think that most judges would rule in favor of the state when it was proven that the land owner "intentionally" and knowledgably remove a state easement right. As far as adding anything extra, yes the state must abide by the same rules that it must do at all of its areas.

How did you come up with your statement "Forcing WRP out of business is also a stupid idea"? Who's is forcing WRP out of business? He's the one that has broken the laws, no us. You go on to say;" You don't care, your jobs not at stake, because you don't even live there." Since I live do "live there" (in Toledo), I can you tell that the jobs that are at stake, are owner and maybe 3 or 4 other part time employees. Regardless of the job issue, he has no legal right to block off our legal access rights to the river.

You go on to say;" The gravel pit was there before 1971, therefor they could be grandfathered in on a lot of there operations. Did any one stop to think maybe the easement was sold in exchange for some of their rights?"

Yes, we have stopped and reviewed the entire purchase of this issue. It was bought for by WDFW for $40,000 solely for the purpose for of Public Fishing Access only. There was no trading offered or involved in this easement!

You say;" Imagine what this property could be for your grandchildren. Twin lakes park in Arlington, Fort Borst park in Centralia and Friends Landing in Montesano were all gravel pits and after the reclamation are some of our favorite to enjoy." Well think of this way; "image" how much fun and enjoyment our children have already been cheated out of because WRP has closed of their legal access for the past 4-6 years! The river access was and still is theirs, yet this jerk would not even allow our children their legal right to get to it! Now that is truly a crime in my opinion!

I don't know where you came up with this statement; "Without the safety training you and WRP would be cited, even for just walking through to the river. Remember it's an easement, in an active mine." You kind of got that a little bit backwards don't you? The easement was on and across the land before the land became part of the pits gravel operation. I think you’re a little screwed up on who has the responsibility for safety on this one. The "easement" came first; the owners then breaks the law and physically removes land that easement is across; and now you actually believe that the people who have the "legal right" to use this perpetual easement on, over and across a 60 foot strip of land will have to be trained in mine safety. Where do you come up with such a goofy idea, or are you just dreaming that one up!

You say;" Working with WRP is our best solution. Maybe fire up your printers write some letters and put some pressure on them to build a new easement that's not going to interfere with there operations"

That has already been tried in 1997. The pit owner was to purchase a ½ parcel and WDFW was going to "trade" existing easement for some piece of "crap" easement at the very end of the existing foot access easement. But the owner failed to purchase the area in question, so the deal feel through. That was a good thing because the fisherman would have really gotten the short end on that deal! All new deals must be made public on this one!

I got to go and help a friend with some work now, but I will be back to answer your latest posting when I have some more time.

Cowlitzfisherman


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #70493 - 08/16/03 08:42 AM

Fishdoc the devils advocate approach works on the internet just as well as anywhere else....the person using it just has to have something to backup those arguments. CFM certainly has that ability to back up his points.

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Gooose]
      #70495 - 08/16/03 09:33 AM

Gooose,
I am and have been well aware of this issue for a long time. CFM is not playing devils advocate he is shooting the real deal from his perspective. My personal opinion, though I know it doesn't matter much is that CFM is infamous for spouting off and rialing up but I haven't seen any solutions from him...he just keeps shooting people with his high powered and allowed knowledge gun. Please don't assume that I know nothing.

I am done responding to anything here on this thread or I will have to post things that others will really not like.


Doc over and out

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: fishdoc]
      #70509 - 08/16/03 11:24 AM

c'mon fish doc tell us what you know. cowlitz seems to have put out all facts that can be confirmed with minimal research and he is working toward a solution and trying to get support from board members. Let me guess, you must work at the gravel pit or have special permision to access the land and you want it all to yourself right?

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: micropterus101]
      #70510 - 08/16/03 12:05 PM

Spit it out Fishdoc. If CFM is leading us astray or giving us wrong info, I will be the first to jump his sh!t. Just ask him!

Quote:

CFM is infamous for spouting off and rialing up but I haven't seen any solutions from him




So what is YOUR solution Fishdoc?


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: AuntyM]
      #70513 - 08/16/03 01:14 PM

fishdoc

I have no idea where you are coming from or where in the devil you are heading on this issue.

You just said;" I am done responding to anything here on this thread or I will have to post things that others will really not like." What the devil are you talking about? If you have anything that you can support by documentation or facts and not just hearsay, I say go for it! Every single issue that I have posted on this thread can be, and is supported by documentation from the states records, If I have misinform anyone about any issue here, and you can prove it, go for it!

It looks like Micro may be right on about how you feel. You go on to say:" CFM is infamous for spouting off and rialing up but I haven't seen any solutions from him...he just keeps shooting people with his high powered and allowed knowledge gun. Please don't assume that I know nothing."

First off, I had been personally working with Ray Crosswell who was the WDFW "Regional Lands Project Manager" for the last 3 years before he just retired from WDFW on this access site issue. What do you call that? For some unknown reason you will not share all that you have been told with us concerning this access issue. I can not understand why you would want to do that. I have given you reinforcement factual information on every thing that I have stated, yet you have insinuated otherwise …What's up with you?

Ray's Croswell's last words to me were; (and yes, they are documented) "I did call Randy Wallace a week ago Friday and told him that he had to get it open and we were going all the way this time on making it happen. I planned on stopping by and visiting the site and him last week (but did not get it done). My call and personal visit will be the last stops before the Strong Letter."

After all my efforts to "work this issue out", It was decided by WDFW that they were going to exchange the underwater easement for the new surveyed easement (The one that I had told you about earlyier that follows along the telephone pole lines). The state had already told the WRP owner that this was going to be the course that WDFW was going to take.

Now if you don't think that I had tried to "work this solution" out then please tell me what more I should have done! I can only do so much, and the rest was up to the owner and WDFW to do.

So if you got some more information that is there, that I am not aware of, please let the board know about it. I am not knocking you, nor am I mad at you; I just try dealing with the facts because that is how the courts will be dealing with this issue. Hearsay is just what it means! Facts are what will decide the out come of this if it needs to go to the courts.

Please don't get mad, just stay calm and please tell us what or where you have read any incorrect or false information. I too know these people, but that doesn't mean that they should continue screwing over the sport fisher from their right to use the legal access easement.

Cowlitzfisherman


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Edited by Cowlitzfisherman (08/16/03 01:18 PM)


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #70554 - 08/16/03 07:25 PM

Best Thread Ever

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: stlhdh2o]
      #70579 - 08/16/03 10:02 PM

This is about steelhead and salmon fishing with out a doubt... I want to go fish there at some point. I was scoping out bankie spots last trip down and saw several fishermen who caught some ...... NOT AT BLUE CREEK!!

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Cowlitzfisherman
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Marty]
      #70622 - 08/17/03 07:40 AM

Thanks Marty for letting me post about our public access to our rivers. Without access we won't be able to fish and that’s plain and simple! For sure, fishing access has 100% to do with fishing in my mind!

I am adding this "incident report" so that when fishermen do decide to use this public fishing access site individually, they will have the confidence to know that the County Sheriff will not be citing them for trespassing. The report will also clear up a few other misnomers that some have made, plus these other points:

1) The WRP now knows that you have legal access across his property.
2) There is a recognized and established substituted "identified" public easement along the power lines that has been used by the public since the original public easement had been removed by the WRP owner.
3) The sheriff will not ticket you if you stay within the easement area as described in the Sheriffs Report.

Until WDFW posts this area, with the correct signage, and the easement is fenced, I would suggest that everyone print off a copy of this "Sheriff's Informational Report" and carry it with them if you want to fish at this "public fishing site". If any officer comes out to hassle you, just tell them to check out this offers report (INCIDENT # 01C5448: "On 05/11/01)

This is an exact read off of the Sheriff's report when I was accused of trespassing across on Wallace Gravel Pit WDFW public access site. It may be helpful to people when or if the Pit owner or his employees tries to give you any BS.

INCIDENT # 01C5448: "On 05/11/01 , I, deputy Wetzel responded to 654 Mandy Road, Toledo, The Wallace Brothers Gravel Pit, in reference to a trespass. Upon arrival I contacted the reporting party, Mr. Randy L. Killian, who is an employee there. Mr. Killian advised me that an individual had driven through the gravel pit area down towards the Cowlitz River an order to fish. He advised the person it was private property and that he could not go through there. According to Mr. Killian, the person told him that he could fish wherever he wanted and it was a public fishing spot.

I went down to that location and I contacted Mr. Robert Reid who was fishing along the banks of the Cowlitz. Mr. Reid vehicle was parked just above the bank. Mr. reid advised me that there, in fact, was a state fish and wildlife easement through the Wallace Brothers Gravel Yard and there was about a 60 foot easement along the Cowlitz River all the way down to the county line. He gave me several names to for my dispatch to contact to verify this.

Dispatch contacted Regional Office in Vancouver and it was confirmed that there is, in fact, a public access easement through the Wallace Brothers property. You have to come into the main driveway, stay to the left of the scale shack and skirt along the power lines to the left of the gravel pit along the along the Cowlitz which is the easement.

There is approximately a half acre parking area above the above the gravel pit area about 60 foot easement along the river all the way to the county line. Dispatch was able to confirm this though the Department of Wildlife.

Mr. Reid explained to me that he was aware this and also the Wallace Brothers was aware of it; however they kept trying to run people off and keep the fishing area private for themselves. Mr. Reid then packed his fishing things and left because he was finished fishing anyways.

I contacted Mr. Randy Killian again and explained to him that there was, in fact, a public easement through the property for the purpose of fishing. Mr. Killian advised that he was aware that and I also advised him that might want to get together with the Game Department to post signs to make sure that any legitimate fishermen would stay to the left of gravel pit and not drive down into the pit. Mr. Killian was concerned about any injuties or liability issues should someone get disorientated and injure themselves. I explained to him that there is, in fact an easement and that Mr. Reid was within his rights to go through the property to go fishing. Mr. Killian advised that he understood that and stated they would also be contacting the Game Department.

At this time this report is for information. There is a public easement through the Wallace Gravel Pit on Mandy Road down along the Cowlitz River as long as you stay to the left of the gravel pit and skirt along the power lines and that is a public fishing area. This report at this time is for information only and a note will be given to Dispatch to flag that address for any further possible incidents."


Cowlitzfisherman


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Edited by Cowlitzfisherman (08/17/03 07:52 AM)


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #70634 - 08/17/03 10:06 AM

nice job cfs.

i think a fishin is just what this need.

what do you all think? should we have a Wallacepittilla?

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #70663 - 08/17/03 12:48 PM

Index Hooker

Good suggestion, but I think that there are a few other things that will bring this issue to a head fairly quick.

First, we need to keep using this public site or the owner will cut some sort of a backdoor deal with WDFW for a far less better fishing area. This has almost happen once already! The current easement site is by far the best possible area that the public could possibly have to access this huge walking easement along the Cowlitz. It's perfect, because it is centered just about right smack in the middle of walking easement. The one that WDFW had tried to sneak in earlier was at the far end of the walking easement about a mile down river from the one we now are using. There is no way in the would that a person with any kind of walking disability could ever walk that distance and back. I can remember seeing lots of older folks who couldn't walk very well or far driving accross this current easement site in the mid 80's to fish.

What really surprises me now is why the Friends of the Cowlitz (FOC) have not yet pushed harder to see that this easement site remaines opened for the public to enjoy. Over the years they (the FOC) have fought hard to see that all public access remains open on the Cowlitz River. I can remember going before the Lewis County Commissioners back in the late 80's and testifying at a special hearing which was held to get the county to authorize WDFW to develop the old Hinkley Rd. easement that went all the way to the Cowlitz River (that can be a whole story in itself!).

The FOC fought hard to develop that public access, but failed because of the political power and pressure that came from a few large campaign supports (one was the head representative who ran the "Fish-on" product company, one was a very well-to-do pilot who has that huge mansion of a house just down river and across from the Blue Creek Boat Ramp, and the other was a sergeant who worked for the Washington State Patrol. They were all owners of private lots in a private development that the public had an easement rights to use for walking or riding bicycles on that ran though their private development to the river banks of the Cowlitz. They did not want the county to allow the WDFW to develop the road and parking area, or for the public to use the walking easement that went right down the developments roadway.

It's my understanding now that owner of WRP had approached the FOC and gave them a key to the gate that is now "locking out the public". Apparently the WRP people told the FOC that they could raise some fish in net pins in the mining pond. I'll bet you anything that the people who have access from the FOC to go through WRP never were required to go through any "mine safety training" or be certified in mine safety operation!

I would really like to hear the thoughts from any FOC members who may be reading this thread, and find out what their feelings are concerning this access site. My question to them would be this; as a member of the FOC, would you support; 1) The signing of a joint written request to WDFW, requesting WDFW to demand that the Pit owner keep the access road unlocked and open. 2) That the current road be marked by WDFW signs, so that the entire easement road that is currently being used by the general public (the one that runs along the power lines to the Cowlitz River walking easement and parking area) can be clearly identified. 3) That they instruct WDFW enforcement to enforce the easement right.

I believe that if we could get the FOC members to ask their board of directors to do this, this whole mess would come to head and short order!

Are there any FOC members willing to voice their thoughts on this suggestion? If so, I would be more than happy to work with any of you that are willing to do so. Please yet me know ASAP!!

If we can get the FOC to join in, I know that WDFW will have to take action! How about FOC, will you help us out?

Cowlitzfisherman



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Edited by Cowlitzfisherman (08/17/03 12:56 PM)


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Buzzy
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Marty]
      #70689 - 08/17/03 04:09 PM

I ended up driving past it today.. should have stopped but I was hot and tired....Man, does the barrier dam look bad with the low water..



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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Buzzy]
      #70693 - 08/17/03 04:55 PM

Buzzy

Was the gate closed?

Cowlitzfisherman



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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #70746 - 08/17/03 09:12 PM

This is getting rediculous, WDFW isnt going to do jack and we are not going to be able to use this access, a new access road will have to be made, you all arent going to drive through the mine. You can go about this the hard way or the easy way, you all have to realize this so called parking lot and fishing area are not going to be made, but instead you will have to settle for a trail or maybe a new road around the pit to the easemant if your lucky. After this many years Im sure there are laws and do you really think the owner didn`t know what he was doing all along. You have the right to fish there, no doubt, but dont expect everything to happen in a day. You all call him a jerk, but you dont even know him, why dont you talk to him. I thought he was alright, and Im a pretty good judge. I am a miner and have been for years, I was going to run some of his equipment, but didnt. Just talk to the guy. He could probably whip up a real nice access for ya in just a couple of weeks, but Im sure you`ll have to compromise. Whatever happened to good ol, talking, jees.

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Fishmaster]
      #70779 - 08/18/03 06:35 AM

Fishmaster

You say;" WDFW isnt going to do jack and we are not going to be able to use this access, a new access road will have to be made, you all arent going to drive through the mine."

WE ARE USING THE ACCESS right now, and WE ARE DRIVING AROUND THE MINING area right now, and the Sheriff Offices even recognizes that we have a "legal right" to use it! Please don't take this personally, but is it and inherent thing about mining people that they DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE LAWS OF OUR LAND? Did you not read or understand what the Sheriff had stated? The Sheriffs statement says it all; "I explained to him that there is, in fact an easement and that Mr. Reid was within his rights to go through the property to go fishing. Mr. Killian advised that he understood that and stated they would also be contacting the Game Department." So how do you think the Pit owner is going to stop the people from legally using there easement to the river? Who's he going to call to stop you from using it?

Ok, just incase you missed it, I will tell you one more time what the County Sheriffs reports states; "There is a public easement through the Wallace Gravel Pit on Mandy Road down along the Cowlitz River as long as you stay to the left of the gravel pit and skirt along the power lines and that is a public fishing area." What is that makes you think that the owner is above the rule of law?

What was that state law that you were referring to that allows a mining operation to remove a public perpetual easement, did we miss it in your post? Maybe you need to talk to your friend a little bit more and ask him why he didn't sign the alternate offer that WDFW did make and sent to him over 7 years ago. I am sure that he's going to be truthful to you, and tell you all about that one….right? It would be a cake walk for the mine owner to give, or offer WDFW a new easement right outside his pit area since he or the father (the original owner/grantor of the easement ) also owns the entire area adjacent to his pit.

Let's really be honest with this board! The Wallace Gravel Pit will do everything within it's power to stop the public from using the legal bank access that wraps around his entire gravel pit. That's why the WRP is not making or exchanging any land for a new easement!

You stated;" After this many years Im sure there are laws and do you really think the owner didn`t know what he was doing all along" Well if you or the pit owner is so darn sure that there is a law that allows him to get around a legal perpetual easement, I like to hear what it is!

You go on to say;" You all call him a jerk, but you dont even know him, why dont you talk to him." Well I'll bet you that I have known the guy who made the original agreement longer than you have! I have known him (daddy) for over 16 years, maybe you have known his kid (the guy who is running daddy's pit) now longer.

Finally, you said;" He could probably whip up a real nice access for ya in just a couple of weeks, but Im sure you`ll have to compromise." Well, he could have done that three years back, or accepted the WDFW counter offer in 1997 when WDFW made him the counter to exchange easements rights, couldn't of he? He's got my phone number and could call me anytime to help resolve this access problem. I am just one person he hates to deal with because I have done my research, I live here and know them, and he knows that he can't BS me about one thing about his pit or the easement.

That's why three years ago he offered me a key to the pit if I would just drop the issue. Is that the way that all miners do there business deals?

You tell him that we will work with him if he makes and honest effort at giving us an easement directly outside is working pit area. We don't want a piece of crap, a mile or so below our legal easement. There is no reason why the pit owner can not give WDFW a new easement 2-3 hundred yards down river from the existing legal easement that he had stolen from the state. That's the very least that he can do to correct HIS wrong doings! It would also be fair!

Cowlitzfisherman


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Edited by Cowlitzfisherman (08/18/03 06:41 AM)


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Fishmaster]
      #70784 - 08/18/03 08:25 AM

Quote:

You have the right to fish there, no doubt, but dont expect everything to happen in a day.




cfm i find it hard to beleave you didn't tell us you have only been working on this one day. man you sure seem to be able to put alot of info. together in a day. seem like more then some one wanted to read.

keep up the good work.

i still think a pittilla would be good.

peace pete

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Index Hooker]
      #70802 - 08/18/03 10:03 AM

All I can say is that its a good thing I dont have anything to do at work today or I would have never made it through this entire post. I wont be spending that much time reading after I get home from work. I'll be on the river!!!

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Neurosis]
      #70853 - 08/18/03 01:52 PM

I just received a phone call from the new WDFW Westside Regional Lands Management Coordinator!

He asked me to bring him up to speed on what was going on at the Wallace Gravel Pit Site. I told him the general story that I have posted here. He appears to be very fair and is willing to work our some the issues that we have discussed here. He will be visiting the site sometime later this week and meeting with the pit owner.

It will very interesting to see what the pit owner may propose as a resolution to resolve this 30 year problem. I want to thank all of you for your impute and suggestion concerning this issue. It appears that WDFW has heard some of the "rumblings' " from our board and are now willing to get involved again. Good work people!!!

I will keep you all informed as I learn any new information. Remember "in numbers we stand strong, individually we are weak and will fall!

PS; would someone please tell Fishmaster that what we are doing is now starting to show some results!!


Cowlitzfisherman


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #70892 - 08/18/03 05:38 PM

Good work CFM, I look forward to hearing what happns after the WDFW guy pays his visit.

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Quillback]
      #70905 - 08/18/03 06:22 PM

Drove out there Saturday night to check it out. The gate was closed, but not locked. Looked around but didnt have enought time to fish.

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: prhm]
      #70938 - 08/19/03 04:03 AM

I'll let the FM know he is at Hoodsport with the sled and his Father in law today.. took my crab rings too I better get some crab out of this



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Cowlitzfisherman
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Buzzy]
      #70949 - 08/19/03 05:49 AM

prhm

Thanks for the report!

It sounds like the owner has gotten the word from someone who reads or posts on this board. He did the same thing last time for about a month until it cooled down and then started locking up the gate again shortly afterwards. It sounds like he got the word that one of WDFW top boys may be "dropping by" real soon. It will take continue pressure from us until WDFW can get the easement posted. Glad to see that a few of you can find the time to swing by and keep this guy honest.

Thanks,

Cowlitzfisherman


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #70957 - 08/19/03 07:12 AM

That is very good news. I hope I can fish there someday. Don't get past woodland very often.

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Cowlitzfisherman
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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: rtlees]
      #70960 - 08/19/03 07:47 AM

I thought that I would show you a few pics of the gate lock itself and the gate when the lock pin is in place. These pictures prove that the Pit owner is locking the gate! He has played the game before and he has told WDFW that the gate has just been closed and not locked! The picture says otherwise. The picture of the lock is taken from the ground looking up inside the round steel inclosed lock box. I had tried to pull the lock pin out, but this was as high as it would go.

Like they say, a picture is sometimes worth a million words!!






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Edited by Cowlitzfisherman (08/19/03 10:42 AM)


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #71297 - 08/21/03 03:17 PM

Here's a response that I recieved from WDFW from one of many emails I sent concerning this issue.

Your email has been referred to me for investigation and possible action. You are absolutely correct - the Department of Fish and Wildlife has a legal easement that allows the public access across the Wallace property to the Cowlitz River.

This issue was reported to me earlier in the week by another gentleman that was denied access and I have scheduled a visit to the site next week.

I will provide you an update following my investigation.

Terry Legg
Westside Lands Supervisor

Let's hope they can get something permanent worked out!

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Drifterat]
      #71302 - 08/21/03 04:57 PM

sweet,maybe now if i can find this place,this sat. i'm a gonna go fishin down there, and show my support also..
rg out

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Drifterat]
      #71304 - 08/21/03 05:04 PM

trailrat

That is the same person from WDFW that had called me. Tomorrow is Friday, and he should have had time by now to "drop by" and see what the pit was like. I wanted to meet with him before he had "dropped by", but he apparently did not choose to do so as of yet. It will be very interesting to see what he has found at the site.

I did give him a few "hints" to look for before he went there, and we will see just how sharp this guy really is. I will tell you what those "hints" were after I hear from MR. Legg!

Thanks again for taking the time to stay on top of this issue. The more the merier!!


Cowlitzfisherman


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #71365 - 08/22/03 03:55 AM

CFM

I find myself wondering if this information might not also apply.. It is from the River Access Rights page I posted about on another thread... I posted the whole paragraph so you could read it in full...

"quote"
22. What about getting to and from the river?

Normally there is no right to cross private land to get to or from a river (except perhaps in extreme cases as mentioned above.) For example, there is no right to walk across a farmer's field to get from a public highway to a river.

However, the state has a duty to maintain public access routes to rivers under certain conditions, as part of its public trust duties. Courts have found it unlawful for a state to close off an existing public access route when there are not other public access routes nearby.

A common problem involves highway bridges over rivers. The river, if navigable for title purposes, is public land up to the ordinary high water mark, and the highway is public out to the edge of its right-of-way. Usually there is enough space to legally park next to the highway near the bridge. But the adjacent landowner may build an impassable fence up to the bridge abutments and post "No Trespassing" signs on the fence, so people can't get from the highway down to the river. This is unlawful; there is a right of passage from the highway to the river. Courts have ruled that when one public route meets or crosses another, there is a right to proceed between the two.


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Buzzy]
      #71370 - 08/22/03 06:17 AM

Buzzy

What you have said is true in cases where the state does not already have a "legal" description of a easement that was written specially for the purpose of entry across private lands. But in this case, all those other river laws are really moot because the state does have a legal perpetual easement to cross over private lands.

This case is almost laughable why WDFW has not yet enforced the easement rights that are recorded and registered. The easement was there before the pit owner "engulfed it" and that is a fact. The pit owner can try to cloud the issue by now claiming that the easement is endangering the safety of his mining operations.

But the simple facts remain the same. The easement was first, and then came the mining operation, which "illegally blocked the public use and enjoyment" of the easement.

The pit owner argues that the easement is not valid because he claims that WDFW didn't meet all of it commitments of the "agreement" .The pit owner claims that WDFW said that they would install a mercury vapor light at the parking area. The "agreement" does not say that at all. The owner now wants toilets installed. The "agreement" does not say that at all. The owner claims that the "agreement" calls for WDFW to install a 4000 foot sheep wire fence on one side of the easement. The "agreement" states that that the State will "Complete all other necessary development features as monies are programmed. These shall include the fencing of one side of the access road with a sheep type fencing".

One would certainly think that this case would not be a hard one to for the State to win!

1) The agreement is the only binding document between the parties.
2) The agreement says nothing about any lights being installed
3) The agreement says noting about toilets being installed
4) The agreement specifically states that all other development are only to be developed as monies are programmed to do so, with NO TIME LIMITS attached!
5) Finally, the Pit owner has removed any opportunity for WDFW to fence the easement because it is underwater.

If I was an attorney, this case would appear to be a "cakewalk" to win. The pit owner's only possible argument would be the fencing issue, and since he was the one who was responsible for removing the area that was eventually to be fenced, how could he make such an argument? He himself was the one who had prevented WDFW to install the fence once the funds were programmed to do so.

To me, these are the issues that I would take this guy to court on! Everything else is just smoke to cover up the issues that are stated in the contract agreement. There is no question that his mining operations are interfering with the public "enjoyment rights" that are contained in the easements, and not vise versa. It will be interesting to see what the outcome of the meeting will bring.



Cowlitzfisherman


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #71466 - 08/22/03 02:58 PM

I did quite a bit of research today on the 'easement" issue and I thought that you might like to read some of my findings. Here are some issues that I believe apply to the Wallace gravel Pit easement.

"After an easement is created, questions often arise concerning its location, dimensions, and scope. These questions must be resolved on a case-by-case basis and are impacted by the method of the easement's creation. Questions involving matters clearly covered by the written document, or the prior use, or necessity that created the easement may be resolved relatively easily. Frequently, however, the written document, prior use, or necessity does not clearly resolve the question. Written documents creating easements are often vague or incomplete and inferences from prior use or necessity are imprecise. In these cases, the parties' intent is uncertain and must be construed by the courts."

"As a general rule, an easement holder has a right to do "whatever is reasonably convenient or necessary in order to enjoy fully the purposes for which the easement was granted" as long as he or she does not unduly burden the servient land. Conversely, the owner of the servient land may make any use of that land that does not unduly interfere with the easement holder's use of the easement. What constitutes an undue burden depends upon the facts of each individual situation. For instance, an increase in traffic over an easement giving access to a beach resort may not necessarily constitute an undue burden. But, the traffic resulting from changing a dominant estate from private use to a commercial business might constitute an additional burden on the servient estate. Reasonable use of an easement is not fixed at a particular point in time. The concept of reasonableness includes a consideration of changes in the surrounding area and technological developments. For instance, courts have allowed an easement holder to convert a railroad right of way to a recreational trail, cut trees within an access easement, and replace a low-pressure gas pipeline with high-pressure equipment.

If a court determines that the servient estate is unduly burdened by an unreasonable use of the easement, the servient estate holder has several remedies. These include injunctions to restrict the dominant owner to an appropriate enjoyment of the easement, monetary damages when the easement holder exceeds the scope of his or her rights and improperly injures the servient estate, and in some instances extinguishment of the easement. Likewise, remedies exist for interference by the servient owner. Interference with an easement is a form of trespass and courts frequently enjoin the obstruction of an easement and may order the removal of encroaching structures at the servient owner's expense. If interference with an easement causes diminution in the value of the dominant estate, courts may also award compensatory damages to the easement holder.

Courts generally assume easements are created to last forever unless otherwise indicated in the document creating the easement. Despite this, an individual granting an easement should avoid any potential legal or interpretive problem by expressly providing that the easement is permanent and utilizing appropriate words of inheritance. Although permanent easements are the norm, they can be terminated in numerous ways. For instance, an easement may be created for a limited or conditional duration. When the time passes or the condition occurs, the easement ends. Easements of limited duration are commonly used to provide temporary access to a dominant estate pending the completion of construction work. An easement may also be terminated when an individual owning the dominant estate purchases the servient estate, or when the holder of an easement releases his or her right in the easement to the owner of the servient estate. This release must be in writing. Abandonment of an easement can also extinguish it, but as a general rule, mere nonuse of an easement does constitute abandonment. Under some circumstances, misuse or the sale of a servient estate may terminate an easement. Finally, condemnation of an easement by a public authority or condemnation of the servient estate for a purpose that conflicts with the easement terminates an existing easement.

Conclusion

Easements give an easement holder the right to use or to prevent the use of property he or she does not own or possess. This places the easement holder and possessor of the servient estate in the unique position of simultaneously utilizing the same piece of land. The prevalence of easements and their nonpossessory nature creates a unique set of issues in drafting, interpretation and implementation. It is therefore, important to have a basic understanding of the manner in which they are created, their scope, transferability, and methods of termination. Whether an individual, business, or government entity wishes to create an easement, purchase property burdened by an easement or determine the nature of a property interest, experienced legal counsel should be consulted."


It appears to me, that our (WDFW) public access easement meets all of the above requirements because the "agreement" which is part of the registered easement, which specifically spells out all of these requirements!

Finally, these are some of the tools that WDFW and other state agencies can use to enforce the easement if it needs to go to the courts:

RCW 78.44.200
Immediate danger -- Emergency notice and order to rectify deficiencies – Emergency order to suspend surface mining.

When the department finds that a permit holder is conducting surface mining in any manner not authorized by:
(1) This chapter;
(2) The rules adopted by the department;
(3) The approved reclamation plan; or
(4) The reclamation permit;
and that activity has created a situation involving an immediate danger to the public health, safety, welfare, or environment requiring immediate action, the department may issue an emergency notice and order to rectify deficiencies, and/or an emergency order to suspend surface mining. These orders shall be effective when entered. The department may take such action as is necessary to prevent or avoid the danger to the public health, safety, welfare, or environment that justifies use of emergency adjudication. The department shall give such notice as is practicable to the permit holder or miner who is required to comply with the order. The order shall comply with the requirements of the administrative procedure act.
Regulations of surface mining operations administered by other state and local agencies shall be preempted by this section to the extent that the time schedule and procedures necessary to rectify the emergency situation, as determined by the department, conflict with such local regulation"

I see that the Washington's "Surface Mining Reclamation Permit Check List" requires that the mining operator under #27; must "list all easements shown"! Now If I can find this information, why can't the WDFW attorneys?


RCW 78.44.250
Fines -- Civil penalties -- Damage recovery.
Each order of the department may impose a fine or fines in the event that a miner or permit holder fails to obey the order of the department. When a miner or permit holder fails to comply with an order of the department, the miner or permit holder shall be subject to a civil penalty in an amount not more than ten thousand dollars for each violation plus interest based upon a schedule of fines set forth by the department in rule. Procedures for imposing a penalty and setting the amount of the penalty shall be as provided in RCW 90.48.144. Each day on which a miner or permit holder continues to disobey any order of the department shall constitute a separate violation. If the penalty and interest is not paid to the department after it becomes due and payable, the attorney general, upon the request of the department, may bring an action in the name of the state of Washington to recover the penalty, interest, mitigation for environmental damages, and associated legal fees. Decisions of the department are subject to review by the pollution control hearings board.

All fines, interest, penalties, and other damage recovery costs from mines regulated by the department shall be credited to the surface mining reclamation account."

It certainly appears that the tools are there for WDFW, if they just choose to use them!


Cowlitzfisherman


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #72068 - 08/26/03 04:22 AM

I think I may have figured out who CFM is..

When you retired did you have a 21 ft Wooldridge that was painted a nice pretty black and you sold it to a big red headed kid?

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Buzzy]
      #72070 - 08/26/03 04:34 AM

LOL! A bunch of us met CFM this summer. He doesn't hide his identity, do ya Bob?

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: AuntyM]
      #72080 - 08/26/03 05:19 AM

I have just been trying to figure out who he is, since I am sure I have met him before

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Buzzy]
      #72085 - 08/26/03 06:12 AM

Your right about that Aunty!!

Buzzy

Just ask the Wallace's who I am or Tacoma Power, or WDFW, or anyone in Toledo

I once owned a 18 ½ foot Woolridge (10 years ago) but never had a 21 ft Wooldridg. When I retired, I was using the same boat that I am using now and that is a 20 foot Willie Predator. I also play with my 14 wooldrige from time to time.

It seems like everybody either knows me… or of me! I don't really know if that is good thing or a bad thing!

I never try to cover up who I am, or how I feel about our fish and the Cowlitz. I was never one for posting pictures of myself, so that is why you probably don't know who I am. I am easy to recognize….just look for the older guy with all the gray hair and gray beard. I have even posted my full name and the name of the fish group that I had founded undewr my profile. Maybe some day will meet on the Cowlitz and shoot the breeze.

I know if the Wallace Pit ower could do it, he would have my picture hanging on the post offices walls



Cowlitzfisherman


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #72478 - 08/28/03 04:35 PM

What's going on here????

On 8-21-03 a member called "traitrat" posted that he had talked to a guy from WDFW named Terry Legg. I posted this back to him on this board;

"trailrat

That is the same person from WDFW that had called me. Tomorrow is Friday, and he should have had time by now to "drop by" and see what the pit was like. I wanted to meet with him before he had "dropped by", but he apparently did not choose to do so as of yet. It will be very interesting to see what he has found at the site.

I did give him a few "hints" to look for before he went there, and we will see just how sharp this guy really is. I will tell you what those "hints" were after I hear from MR. Legg!

Thanks again for taking the time to stay on top of this issue. The more the merier!!

Cowlitzfisherman "


Now, " trailrat" posts has been removed, or I must be missing something! I have not heard back yet from Mr. Legg of WDFW, who I had called and asked for a reply on Wednesday, August 27 about his visit.

Something is beginning to smell a little bit, and I am becoming concerned unless we hear something back from "trailrat" real soon!

Posts just don't disappear without a reason!!

Anyone have any ideas on what is going on here??

Cowlitzfisherman


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #72483 - 08/28/03 05:43 PM

CFM scroll up a bit til ya hit a post by DrifterRat....he is the fisherman formerly know as Trailrat .

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a sec new [Re: Gooose]
      #72542 - 08/29/03 05:28 AM

Thanks gooose!
I did not know that he had changed his name. That explains why I couldn't find his post.

Maybe he has heard back from Legg and can update us on the Wallace pit issue.


Cowlitzfisherman


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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #72766 - 08/30/03 06:00 PM

I just received my copy of the National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System (NPDES) Discharge Monitoring Report (DMR) on Wallace Rock Products from 04/15/95 thru 04/15/03. I did not recieve an actual copy of the permit issued to him, which I will request again.

In looking over the report, he is listing 1 (one) grab sample taken and tested every 30 days. Yet he has only submits a test every 3 months or so.and in some years there are no records at all. In some cases, such as 10/15/95 to 1/15/96 he lists no discharge so he did not perform any sampling. From looking at his test information, it appears as if he is attempting to perform quarterly tests. He states on his DMR form that the PH permit limit is 6.0 to 9.0, which I will find out when I get the permit information.

His information submitted for this year is not a good sample, as the date on the form has been changed and the year left off.. It reads 1-1-0 to 4/15/03 and therefore is not admissable for a report.

If this company is required to perform a test every 30 days he is seriously out of compliance, if he is only required to test every quarter he is still out of compliance.

He lists his sample method as a grab sample,3 units.If taken at just the right time this could seriously skew the sample results. In my opinion at the very least he should be required to submit composite samples over a 24 hour period. Of course we know what opinions are like.

I have his permit number now, and it will be a simple matter to request the full information on his permit.

The years that have no report filed are 1997, 2000,2001, and 2002. There is archived information that I do not have available and will be attempting to get a copy of.

At the very least I do not believe he is meeting the requirements of his NPDES permit sampling timeframe, but it remains to be seen when I do receive a copy of it what he is actually doing..

The permit # is WAG501159 with a discharge number of WAG501159

Cheers

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Re: Huge Cowlitz River Public Access is kept a new [Re: Buzzy]
      #72804 - 08/31/03 08:18 AM

Thanks Buzzy for all your efforts that you have done on this issue. I just received a phone call late Friday afternoon from Mr. Terry Legg. Mr. Legg is the Regional Lands Manager for the entire west side of the state. He was retuning my earlier calls and was giving me an update on the Wallace Gravel Pit.

He really couldn't tell me a whole lot at this time because he is still working on the issue and it is ongoing. He did say that he stopped by the pit last week around 5 PM and that the gate to the easement and pit was locked. He is currently trying to contact the Wallace's by phone but has been has unable to reach them.

He appears to be staying on top of this issue and is spending quite a bit of time doing his home work and research. I will let our board know when he has made a decision on what WDFW will finally do. He appears to be having our best interests at heart and is working on getting our access back. According to Mr. Legg, as it stands right now, the Pit is letting fishermen use the access area during their normal working hours (7:30 am to 5 pm) during the week days, but is still locking the public out by keeping the access gate locked on the weekends.

I will continue to update the board as any new information becomes available. Again, thanks Buzzy for following through on what you had started. I am sure that the pit owner will be getting some "shock waves" back from the DNR when you are finished with your research. Buzzy, for your information and research, the pit was not operating right after the big floods of late 95- early 96. That may or may not explain some the time laps or gaps that you are finding. Feel free to email me at cpr-fish@toledotel.com if you need any more details about this.

Keep up the good work

Cowlitzfisherman


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