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River Fishing >> Goverment & Science and Fisheries Management  

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SciGuy
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WTF!!!
      #150626 - 12/01/04 05:47 AM

How worried do we need to be about this?

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin...p;date=20041201

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Eddie
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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: SciGuy]
      #150631 - 12/01/04 06:41 AM

I have been worried about this since the morning of Nov. 3rd. It seems like GW won't be happy until he rapes every bit of habitat. After all, to him, fishing means bass and they can live in practically anything.

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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: Eddie]
      #150644 - 12/01/04 07:31 AM

Even the Bass guys think George is screwing up. B.A.S.S. is one of the biggest "save the habitat" groups out there and he is supposed to be a Life member. I think his adult fishing days were all for TV exposure. George's ideas don't have the support of any fishing or hunting organization as far as I know.

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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: Eddie]
      #150646 - 12/01/04 07:48 AM

Sounds like more employment for lawyers as the enviros are getting their lawsuits ready.

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AuntyM
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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: Quillback]
      #150649 - 12/01/04 07:50 AM

But GW will protect your gun rights! (and hopefully ya'll believe in Santa and the Easter bunny too.)

Sportsmen made a big mistake backing GW.

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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: AuntyM]
      #150657 - 12/01/04 08:56 AM

Actually, this makes sense, and comes down to this.

"Instead of designating all reaches potentially accessible to troubled fish, as the agency had done in 2000, it focused only on areas where the fish were known to exist."

Yes, it would be great to have salmon/steelhead everywhere they used to be, but just limiting access to those areas doesn't guarantee that the fish will ever reestablish. This is a much better approach than the blanket knee jerk policy of the past.

Also, the new rules make this requirement also.

"Yesterday's action came in response to a series of court decisions that said the federal government must consider the economic cost of designating critical habitat.

The National Marine Fisheries Service did not do so in 2000 when it designated tens of thousands of miles as critical for California and Northwest salmon species, based on rough estimates of salmon populations in 150 watersheds. So it agreed to revisit the financial issues.

Yesterday, Bob Lohn, Northwest regional administrator for the fisheries service, said salmon-habitat designations in the Northwest cost the economy about $223 million. "

We shouldn't destroy the economy just in case it might help. This part makes sense to me, too even though I don't believe in the Easter bunny!

Finally, the changes don't prevent a particular state from enacting more restrictive rules.

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AuntyM
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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: jimh]
      #150671 - 12/01/04 10:32 AM

Hahahaha! Good one Jim. Whatever state rules are in place now, they won't be strengthened, they will be under attack by Governor Real Estate money Rossi.

At least we'll know who is to blame when there are no wild steelhead and salmon left. The right and the gillnetters.

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Quillback
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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: jimh]
      #150672 - 12/01/04 10:37 AM

My concern is upstream reaches that aren't accessible to fish for whatever reason, or wetlands that may not contain fish but drain to rivers, and the downstream effect development may have on the rivers that do contain fish. I'm not happy with a policy that allows development without regard to downstream effects.

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jimh
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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: Quillback]
      #150700 - 12/01/04 01:02 PM

Well, I guess if the left voted for Gregoire instead of Ron Simms, Donald Duck, and Gary Locke the Governor race would be different, but alas, I guess they were trying to prove some point instead of protecting the environment.

The article doesn't speak about development without downstream effects.

All rules made on behalf of the environmental rules aren't necessarily good or even fair. Talk to the people affected by the King County CAO to know more!

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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: jimh]
      #150707 - 12/01/04 01:27 PM

Aunty, leave the Real Estate business out of this When I become rich and famous I might run for Gov. too.

To blame one entire political group for anything is wrong.

Protecting these areas has not seemed to increase fish population as much as everyone thought so why continue?

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Quillback
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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: buxndux]
      #150716 - 12/01/04 01:44 PM

My answer to that is that as Hunters and fishermen it benefits us all to have habitat that supports fish and game, any laws that favor development at the expense of fish and wildlfe are not good for our hunting and fishing futures.

Of course from an economic perspective, development creates jobs and helps keep us all happily employed.

So the best we can hope for is a compromise that allows reasonable development but protects wildlife habitat as much as possible.

In my opinion the Bush administration is favoring development interests over wildlife interests.

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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: Quillback]
      #150735 - 12/01/04 02:17 PM

Quote:

When I become rich and famous I might run for Gov. too.




I had you in mind when I was considering voting for him. I'm willing to bet you care way more about the environment than he does though! In fact, thats really the kind of Governor we needed but will never get. A conservative environmentalist.

I don't think it's a stretch at all to blame one group. Ya'll that voted for GW allowed this to happen. It's not like there were no indicators. I'm sure you won't lose any sleep over it too.

To most of the GW apologists, a hatchery fish is just as good as a wild one.

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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: AuntyM]
      #150751 - 12/01/04 03:03 PM

THIS IS SAD DAY!!!

With news like this!

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GoooseModerator
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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: H2H]
      #150899 - 12/01/04 10:51 PM

The sky's falling....the sky's falling!

A few things won't change even if thst policy is implemented.

1. Washington State Hydraulic Code

2. SEPA aka State Environmental Protection Act

3. Shorelines Management Act

4. Forest Practices Act

5. Washington also has it's own ESA.

6. Growth Management Act

7. Resource extractive activities on Forest Service and BLM lands in this state are pretty much controlled by congressional legislation. The president can make policy but ultimately it's in the hands of this states congressional delegation as to what actually happens on federal lands. Hmmmmm Dicks, Murray and Cantwell are from which party?

8. ad nauseum I could come up with a few more. All of the protections are still there....always have been.....the will to make sure they are enforced hasn't been there no matter who's in charge.

Oh btw the sky is falling!

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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: Gooose]
      #150919 - 12/02/04 03:19 AM

See, Gooose confirms, the sky is falling.

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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: AuntyM]
      #151284 - 12/03/04 10:55 AM

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht...9_salmon02.html

Administration's salmon approach has been tried — and failed
By David R. Montgomery
Special to The Times

AS the Pacific Northwest debates the Bush administration's recent proposal to count hatchery fish alongside wild fish in applying the Endangered Species Act — and its new plan to cut back critical-areas protections — it is worth considering the historical track record of such strategies in bolstering salmon runs.

If those laboring to restore wild salmon in the Northwest look to the past, they will find an important lesson — salmon-management efforts that put too much faith in hatcheries, and too little effort into habitat restoration, have failed time and time again.

In the mid-1800s, an experimental salmon hatchery on the River Tay began trying to rebuild Scotland's salmon. William Brown argued that by rearing salmon in a hatchery and protecting young fish from natural predators, he would greatly increase the return of adult fish. For Brown, hatcheries provided an easy answer to the problem that overfishing reduced the number of fish to be caught: Just make more fish.

Because the Bush administration's new approach to salmon management seems to adopt Brown's vision, it is worth asking how well that vision has worked in the past.

During the wave of initial enthusiasm for salmon breeding, the British government established its first hatchery in 1868. Additional hatcheries soon spread across the British Isles, rearing salmon fry and then releasing them into streams and rivers. Although hopes were high that hatcheries would restock barren English rivers, the results were disappointing. British enthusiasm for reliance upon hatcheries soon faded as those hopes proved illusory for all but the few rivers where the natural habitat remained intact and productive.

Across the Atlantic, the first American salmon hatchery produced an impressive 70,000 eggs in 1870 to begin restocking Maine's rivers. Four years later, at the peak of the stocking program, more than 3 million eggs were shipped all over New England.

Initially, hatchery operations were seen as a key element in a broad program to rebuild the region's decimated salmon runs. But while the hatcheries were built, provisions for maintaining fish passage over dams, protecting habitat and preventing overfishing were implemented haphazardly, if at all. By the turn of the century, New England's once-thriving salmon runs were pretty much history.

Failure of early hatchery programs raised some serious concerns for fishery officials. In his official report for 1895, the U.S. commissioner of fish and fisheries, Marshall McDonald, concluded that reliance on hatcheries to sustain salmon production was unwise unless coupled with habitat protection and limitations on fishing intensity.

But this warning did little to dampen the enthusiasm for "salmon factories," which kept growing as salmon populations kept falling.

In the Northwest, the hatchery at Bonneville Dam became the central facility of a network of hatcheries throughout the Columbia River Basin. Still, the millions of fry released into the Columbia every year added little to the total number of fish caught in the commercial fishery that the hatcheries were supposed to enhance. Evidence for a beneficial impact of hatcheries remained elusive.

In the 1930s, John Cobb, dean of the College of Fisheries at the University of Washington, cautioned that overoptimism in the ability of hatcheries to maintain salmon runs in the face of ongoing habitat loss would eventually destroy the fishery.

Now, as we stand at the beginning of the 21st century, the Bush administration's policy seems tailored to lead us backward. The controversial and counterintuitive policy — which has been criticized by the administration's own panel of preeminent scientists — could extend protections to hatchery fish while denying protections to runs of legitimately endangered wild salmon.

By using large numbers of hatchery fish to mask the real problems of environmental degradation in the streams, the policy could open the door to continuing harmful practices. In other words, we seem poised to repeat the experience of England and New England.
Put simply, history shows little, if any, evidence that hatchery-based fisheries can be sustained over the long run in the face of habitat degradation.

Perhaps the most dangerous aspect of the historic reliance on hatchery production to sustain salmon populations is that the system has created the illusion that hatcheries can make up for the environmental degradation and overfishing that led to declining salmon runs in the first place.
This illusion deceived the public and policymakers into believing that we can sustain production of a valuable, renewable and culturally important resource while simultaneously degrading the environment and the conditions upon which that production depends.

David R. Montgomery is a professor in the Department of Earth and Space Sciences at the University of Washington and author of "King of Fish: The Thousand-Year Run of Salmon" (Westview Press, 2003).
Copyright © 2004 The Seattle Times Company

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GoooseModerator
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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: H2H]
      #151360 - 12/03/04 05:34 PM

Hmmmmm we're spending somewhere around 750 million dollars a year on salmon restoration.....most of which is for habitat restoration. I do believe that's putting more than just a little effort into habitat. Of course a good portion of those dollars aren't spent on the actual habitat resoration but are going to consulting scientists and engineers for the groups doing the restoration.

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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: Gooose]
      #151361 - 12/03/04 05:37 PM

Then there are the socalled salmon habitat restoration projects that are somewhat questionable as to what they are generating as far as increased numbers of listed salmon.

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diana
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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: Gooose]
      #151410 - 12/03/04 07:42 PM

Sixty thousand of your tax dollars were spent on the culvert of Bagley Creek, where it goes under the road on my property. This was for salmon habitat restoration. That was 9 years ago. Not a single salmon has been up the stream since the expenditure. Or years prior to it, I'm sure.
I have talked to the DOT, who installed the culvert, and to our local stream-watchers, and they all say that the aquatic insect population is too low to justify the expense of populating it with fish.
Hmmmm...and didn't we know this BEFORE we spent 60,000 of our TAX DOLLARS???
I think it's high time for the public to take umbrage over how our money is spent. I feel that we have the foxes guarding our henhouse, and nobody has to own up to anyone for the wastage.

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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: diana]
      #151459 - 12/03/04 10:35 PM

Phase I of the lower Dosewallips restoration was a 150,000 grant....the socalled restoration was the removal of an old 2 foot high dike about 200 yards long in the extreme high intertidal saltmarsh that has been there for about 30 years. The dike itself had been breached many years ago. Predates conbsiderably any collapse of the listed chinook or summer chum in Hood Canal. Took a couple days using minimum wage labor provided by some kids in the WCC program to remove it. Wonder what their wages came to out of that 150,000. Salmon restored? Well there's no benefit for summer chum spawning or nearshore use that I can see as the fry quickly travel out of the area when they hit the salt. Chinook.....pretty much extinct in the Dosewallips....they need to plant some if they want that species to benefit.

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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: Gooose]
      #151464 - 12/03/04 10:49 PM

This one really gives me faith in habitat restoration endeavors. There are 2 proposals for the final solution to habitat restoration on the Dosewallips. The 1st will cost about 30 million bucks. It involves putting Highway 101 on pilings after they remove the raised causeways it is currently on in the socalled 100 year floodplain. They would also remove some diking along that portion of the river so it can meander back and forth. Problem is that it hasn't meandered in the past 100 years....its got high a couple times but even predike it sure didn't meander. The other more final option is to buy out the entire town of Brinnon and relocate the whole works including the highway up into the hills. About 60 million for that one. Yups these plans exist in the DOT planning section. Course again if they want nooks in the Dose they are gonna have to plant some. Summer chums seem to be ignoring what has been done so far as they came back about 8,000 strong in the Dose this year. Yah mon habitat sure isn't getting the attention it needs.

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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: Gooose]
      #151470 - 12/03/04 11:02 PM

Take the last example and apply it to the Hamma Hamma, Duckabush, Big Beef Creek and Lilliwaup. All of them have similar proposed plans sitting there. The preliminary studies have been done by the consultants. Looks like a couple 100 million more for habitat. Course the salmonid pops in the canal were doing just fine for decades after Highway was built but for some reason it must be the cause of the problem according to the habitat guru's. Hmmm maybe another solution wouldn't pay someones salaries?

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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: Gooose]
      #151477 - 12/03/04 11:26 PM

Course acknowledging such realities doesn't help a professor sell his books to the public.

Hatchery practices in the PNW may have a sordid history but it doesn't justify what is being called habitat restoration in this state. Read up on the Tennesee Valley Authority, the Army Corps of Engineers, Congress and Pork Barrel project funding if you really want an idea of where our tax dollars are being spent on salmon restoration. Granted there are some projects that are worthy but if anyone took a good look they would be in the minority.

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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: Gooose]
      #151670 - 12/04/04 06:02 PM

Gooose

You’re good!

I have found that any time the Army Corp gets involved the price of the project is 3 X what a local contractor would charge for the same job and takes 3 X longer to do. I’m not even talking about the permit process!

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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: H2H]
      #151676 - 12/04/04 06:20 PM

For every one of Gooose's examples, there are probably 5 that were beneficial. Not all of these habitat projects have huge dollar signs either. Volunteers all over the region are getting important work done and posts like Gooose's belittle that work.

Don't tell the site owner removing Elwa Dam is a waste of taxpayer money. He's been looking forward to it for some time.

The removal of the dam on Goldsborough Creek. The culvert replacements on Chico Way and several residential streets. Culvert replacements along Clear Creek. In fact, the FAILURE to replace a culvert on Big Beef Creek caused the water to go around the culvert, taking out a huge section of road. Culvert replacement isn't ALWAYS about salmon passage.

It isn't the law that's at fault. It's the pork and the lack of citizen oversite.

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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: AuntyM]
      #151725 - 12/04/04 07:48 PM

I won't disagree Aunty that there are quite a few worthwhile projects being done out there. Goldsborough was one of them. Elwha Dams will be another. I've seen some really good needed work done on some of the small streams on the Kitsap peninsula. More does need to be done. You may have missed my point....but it looks like Homer got it. His post of that article implied that hatcheries are being looked at as the only solution while little effort is being put in to habitat. Habitat is very much on the frontline of restoration if one simply looks at the 750 million dollars per year being thrown at it. WDFW's hatchery budget doesn't even come close to that number. I offered some examples where the rush to restore habitat has run amuck. I'd rather see those dollars spent on something useful such as schools or support for seniors or children in need. Sorry but it isn't my fault that those good projects are associated with the useless ones.

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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: Gooose]
      #151737 - 12/04/04 08:13 PM

Quote:

Sorry but it isn't my fault that those good projects are associated with the useless ones.





Your one post was narrow minded and begged to be redirected. I "got" more from it than H2H did because I know you better.

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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: AuntyM]
      #151741 - 12/04/04 08:32 PM

Nah it was intended for it's reality shock effect.....I get redirected afterwards.

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Re: WTF!!! new [Re: Gooose]
      #151744 - 12/04/04 08:36 PM

The trouble is, because you are a moderator, some folks will balk at redirecting you. Keep that in mind, would ya? This shouldn't be your bully pulpit. Lucky for you, I am not afraid of moderators.

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H2H
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Speak boy Speak new [Re: AuntyM]
      #151906 - 12/05/04 04:48 PM

Yeah Aunty M,

Gooose is like a wet puppy just wants some attention some time.

Gooose

I was hoping that some of the money (that gets wasted) would go to my fishing adventures?


--------------------
Brian






Edited by Homer2handed (12/05/04 04:54 PM)


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GoooseModerator
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Re: Speak boy Speak new [Re: H2H]
      #151912 - 12/05/04 04:57 PM



--------------------
"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain

Spam Kills x 8



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H2H
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Re: Speak boy Speak new [Re: Gooose]
      #151920 - 12/05/04 05:09 PM

Had too!

--------------------
Brian






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AuntyM
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Re: Speak boy Speak new [Re: H2H]
      #151989 - 12/05/04 07:24 PM

Nothing worse than being sent on a wild gooose chase.

--------------------
http://www.ccapnw.org

Deficit neutral, the new "big lie"

"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008


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GoooseModerator
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Re: Speak boy Speak new [Re: AuntyM]
      #152053 - 12/05/04 09:35 PM

Pluckers!

--------------------
"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain

Spam Kills x 8



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