boater
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http://www.nwriverpartners.org/documents/USRepDickspromoteswildsalmonstock-TheOlympian-8-22-07.pdf
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Gooose
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Only effective way to achieve this goal is to increase hatchery fish catch while at the same time not exceeding current ESA protections. Sounds simple? Nope....and sportfishers are not going to like how this is going to happen one bit.
Selective fisheries are the only way to achieve this goal. Well there is one other method but it isn't going to happen.
Closing down salmon hatcheries just isn't going to be on the table. If any hatchery production is decreased or eliminated it will be steelhead.
Facts to deal with is that sportfishers are rarely going to be able to harvest the majority of any hatchery run and especially those that have no means of separation from wild spawners. The only way to harvest the excess fish and maintain ESA protections that we have now is by new selective commercial methods. Bye bye gill nets but we aren't going to see commercial harvest declines.
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boater
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Gooose said:
....and sportfishers are not going to like how this is going to happen one bit.
i know i wont but i think that soon we will have a big group of pissed off sport fisherman who were just to stupid to see this comming.
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Gooose
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and the realistic alternatives that you would suggest?
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Hairlipangler
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Quote:
Gooose said:
and the realistic alternatives that you would suggest?
Broodstock hatcheries.
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Gooose
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Hairlip that's a change in hatcheries that Dicks is pushing for in his letter. It still won't eliminate or reduce commercial fishing. I had to laugh at the letters reference to use of out of basin stocks for hatcheries. Most of the Puget Sound Fall Chinook wild runs are the close kin of the fish pumped out annually by the Green River-Soos Creek hatchery. Any brood stock program on those rivers with those wild fish will be raising the feral progeny of that program.
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Hairlipangler
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My bad, pre-coffee. Didn't read the link.
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Gooose
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Good to see you posting again. 
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Todd R
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"Recent studies — and scientists in the Hatchery Scientific Review Group — say that wild salmon should not spawn with hatchery fish, and wild fish should be used as the source of eggs and milt for hatchery fish, Dicks said."
Neither recent studies, nor the HSRG, say this.
Recent studies back up all the past studies that broodstock programs just produce more hatchery fish that also ought not be spawning in the wild, so the important aspect of "hatchery fish not spawning in the wild" is not the source of the fish, but instead is the location they are planted.
Any collection facilities used to remove them from the rivers before they spawn are the same ones that would remove segregated hatchery stocks from the river before they spawn.
Broodstock programs may be useful as last ditch efforts for nearly extinct runs, but mainly mine the eggs from the wild population to create a better grade of hatchery fish, but they are still hatchery fish, nonetheless.
Fish on...
Todd
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boater
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Gooose said:
and the realistic alternatives that you would suggest?
i`d like to see non-tribal commercial fishing banned on the columbia main stem and kept in select area`s
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Hairlipangler
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There are examples of both successful and failed brood stock hatcheries. When a study can tell me why one fails and one doesn't, then and only then should any study be considered more factual than another. IMO, until that answer is available, either conclusion is only an unverified theory.
IMO, the studies against successful brood stock hatcheries simply outnumber studies done by brood stock advocates. I believe it's because there are many more opinions involved wanting to vilify hatcheries within the professional rank and file. Wild fish advocates mostly.
Also my opinion, whatever the reason for a lack of brood stock success, will be largely due to whatever influence we as brooders have or do. So far all anyone's proved is that you can do it wrong.
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boater
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Hairlipangler said:
I believe it's because there are many more opinions involved wanting to vilify hatcheries within the professional rank and file. Wild fish advocates mostly.
i think that if hatcherys were good and broodstock programs actualy worked the wild fish groups would be all for it, dont you ?
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Mojo
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Quote:
boater said:
Quote:
Gooose said:
and the realistic alternatives that you would suggest?
i`d like to see non-tribal commercial fishing banned on the columbia main stem and kept in select area`s
I'm with you Brother!!!
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boater
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Quote:
Mojo said:
Quote:
boater said:
Quote:
Gooose said:
and the realistic alternatives that you would suggest?
i`d like to see non-tribal commercial fishing banned on the columbia main stem and kept in select area`s
I'm with you Brother!!!
i also think they the esa take that they had used before they got banned should be givin to sportfishing, the tribes catch enough fish for the non-fishing public and i dont feel abit greedy in saying that, this state is turning into a sport "meat fishing" joke, the grand plan looks to be turn every fishery in the state into a selective fishery and anglers will come out of the wood work, i personaly tow my boat to westport, ilwaco and neah bay for a chance to catch a big chinook, if i lose that i plain aint going, whats the point ?
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Gooose
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So you are saying that we should choose an alternative that will not be able to reduce the numbers of hatchery salmon reaching the wild fish spawning grounds? Poor river conditions for sport fishing would even see an increase in the numbers of hatchery fish going uncaught under your alternative.
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boater
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seasons could be structured to catch alot of these fish on the coast.
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Gooose
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How so? The ocean fishery would be limited exclusively to the charter fleet and those few who own ocean worthy boats. The fisheries from Willapa northward would be fishing upon increasingly more mixed stocks as you go up the coast to Westport Lapush and Neah Bay. Saltwater mortality rates are higher than for in river released fish. ESA impact rate would be higher with that alternative.
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Lead_Bouncer
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Why is the mortality rate higher in the salt? Predators?
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Todd R
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Saltwater salmon aren't very hardy...they don't handle being handled well, and loss of scales and slime is far more pronounced in saltwater fish...
A program on the Skagit River where they were gathering broodstock for Chinook in the hatchery found that they couldn't net them up when they were fresh in the lower river as a high percentage of them died long before becoming useful in the hatchery...but once they had been in the river for a week or so and the scales "set", they were able to actually gillnet them, bring them to the hatchery, and let them swim around in the cement raceways until ripe...with very little mortality.
Some estimates on releasing coho caught on bait in the salt put the mortality rate at as high as 50%...same with shakers.
Fish on...
Todd
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Lead_Bouncer
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Yikes.
Thankyou T.R.
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boater
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Quote:
Gooose said:
How so? The ocean fishery would be limited exclusively to the charter fleet and those few who own ocean worthy boats. The fisheries from Willapa northward would be fishing upon increasingly more mixed stocks as you go up the coast to Westport Lapush and Neah Bay. Saltwater mortality rates are higher than for in river released fish. ESA impact rate would be higher with that alternative.
ok, what would you do ?
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Gooose
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Remove the lower Snake River dams. Increase wild spawner access to historical spawning grounds above all artificial fish passage barriers. Work on habitat restoration that will have immediate and real measurable effects rather than theoretical. Modernize the CR hatchery system. Require more selective methods than tangle nets and manage the time and place of harvest to effectively harvest more hatchery fish while staying within current ESA protections. Make sturgeon a gamefish and eliminate the commercial fishery for them.
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boater
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Quote:
Gooose said:
Remove the lower Snake River dams. Increase wild spawner access to historical spawning grounds above all artificial fish passage barriers. Work on habitat restoration that will have immediate and real measurable effects rather than theoretical. Modernize the CR hatchery system. Require more selective methods than tangle nets and manage the time and place of harvest to effectively harvest more hatchery fish while staying within current ESA protections. Make sturgeon a gamefish and eliminate the commercial fishery for them.
i agree in taking the spot light off of harvest but i still feel we should gain some fish from the non-tribals, as far as the snake river dams go, the most interesting thing about that is who doesnt want them removed.
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AuntyM
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i agree in taking the spot light off of harvest but i still feel we should gain some fish from the non-tribals, as far as the snake river dams go, the most interesting thing about that is who doesnt want them removed.
I don't think you phrased that the way you meant it. Do you mean you want more of the impact allocation for sporties, or more hatchery fish? Because BOTH sides are not that efficient at catching hatchery fish, but using the current methods, sporties are more efficient in catching their share just because our mortality rate is less than gillnets.
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boater
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I don't think you phrased that the way you meant it. Do you mean you want more of the impact allocation for sporties, or more hatchery fish?
the only way to get more fish these days is with more esa take
Edited by boater (07/27/08 07:40 PM)
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AuntyM
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Yeah, duh. But you can't get one without the other, so try thinking in those terms instead of being bass-ackwards next time.
And I'd rather NOT have more "take" or fish in the lower river. I'd rather let more of that impact be used on the eastside and make THEM figure out how to keep all those hatchery fish off spawning beds. If that means going to eastern WA or Idaho to catch fish, I'm SURE the droolers will welcome Caveman and I.
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boater
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Quote:
AuntyM said:
And I'd rather NOT have more "take" or fish in the lower river.
why do you bother to go to spring chinook allowcation meetings then ?, the whole meeting is based around begging to kill more esa listed fish, i also this year recall several cca members begging to kill more esa listed fish, what kind of conservation groups begs to kill these poor fish ?, they are turning into a quota group just like several of the other groups, a conservation group doesnt go to a meeting and want to kill more esa listed fish they should want to kill less esa listed fish, i know, i know, there is no official cca policy on this 
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AuntyM
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Currently, we're performing the task of removing those evil hatchery fish more efficiently than gillnetters do. Unless you want to dispute a highly respected WDFW commissioner/fish genetcist/biologist, I'd say you have NO argument with the current state of affairs.
We do so with far less bycatch on other species as well, like wild steelhead and sturgeon.
Once there is a method in place to effectively prevent those hatchery fish from reaching spawning beds, sport fish removal is scientifically PROVEN to be the more efficient method.
Next lame argument?
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