brettheviking
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I've run across something while reading about fishing twice now and it has made me stop and think each time
"I thought it was pagan because in any civilized country fishing with salmon roe was outlawed a hundred years ago."
Alec Jackson
from Trey Combs "Steelhead Fly Fishing"
"...if the general public chooses to insist upon using salmon roe, then it must not expect to have decent fishing of any sort for many more years."
Roderick L. Haig-Brown, "The Western Angler"
These are both opinions from fly fisherman, and I'm sure it's easy for some, if not most, to say that they're being elitist snobs, but is there something to be said when a technique is to "too" effective? A gill net is pretty effective, but I think it's safe to say that everyone on this site wants them banned because our fish runs are dying in front of us. It's so easy to point the finger at the commercials and their nets and not think about all the newest "deadly" techniques we use to catch our limits. I do realize that the sport fishing harvest is a fraction of what commercials take in, but we are a part of it.
Another point I ponder is the division of the resource and I'm sure that there are more opinions about this than there are fish. I can't remember where I read it, but I came across an article about management in Russia that talked about commercial harvest at the mouths of the rivers and how that made selective harvest a guaranteed process. It seemed to work great for the Native Americans for what, 6000 years? That should be the goal. It seems obvious that there are too many nets going after the fish.
What I understand of the Gary Loomis/CCA line is that we started our hatchery program to keep the commercials afloat. Just another subsidy for Corporate America. Can anyone show me where they've put something back into the resource to promote it's survival. As a sport fisherman these aren't the partners I want to watch my back. Now I might piss some folks off here, but give me a chance. As I said befor, and it is a guess at how long, but the Native American fishing system worked for thousands of years, until we showed up, that is. The Tribes are also active, and in some cases leading the way in hatchery programs. Look at the Quinault and the amount of thirty-pound steelhead their getting. They sound like better partners in fisheries management to me. To the chase what I'm saying is something like "the tribes get 50%, sports get 50%", to hell with the commercials!" The tribes are pretty much a commersial outfit now, let's let them make some real money for a change. They set up weirs or fish wheels at the mouths of the rivers and take their cut right off the top. Or how about if we give them the hatcheries? Eggs and fish in one fell swoop, nice and neat. The price of fish is sure to go up in the stores, but who ever said that there was enough fish in the rivers to feed everyone anyways? I don't remember that in the constitution, do you? It would be a quantum leap forward in the fight to keep salmon and steelhead in our rivers.
Fish in the oceans is another thing, but I know we have a huge supply of cold war era torpedoes and some excellent submarines...
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Gooose
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You should study up on the realities of tribal management of salmon resources shared by multiple tribes and fishing upon mixed stocks. They don't get along with each other any more than they do with the nontribal managers. Sorry but only in a Utopian world would it work.
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brettheviking
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Utopian as in the way it used to be? Seems like there used to be a lot more fish...
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Gooose
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So what you are saying is that the person whom doesn't fish but wants to have salmon for dinner should pay more for their fish so you can have more fish? That should work well in the description of a public initiative ballot. 
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FireFish
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"Quote The Tribes are also active, and in some cases leading the way in hatchery programs. Look at the Quinault and the amount of thirty-pound steelhead their getting. They sound like better partners in fisheries management to me. To the chase what I'm saying is something like "the tribes get 50%, sports get 50%", to hell with the commercials!" Quote"
Brett, before you jump on the Support the Tribes in their success, you need to take a good long look at which Tribes and what systems they enhance and which systems they harvest. The Quins do have very productive hatcheries on the penninsula for both Salmon and Steelhead. They also have complete control of some of those sections of certain rivers that they supply fish too.
Now take a good look in the Grays Harbor Basin and show me one thing the Quinns do other than Harvest and Over Harvest, as has been demonsrtated for years. It is not a friendly working relationship between the Co-managers in that basin. The State supplies all the fish in the hatcherys, the native runs are in trouble and the Tribes continue to Harvest as they have done year after year. Another point of interest, they are not the only Tribe in a given fishery who takes an abundance of fish. There is no 50% / 50%. That does not exist...
FireFish Out... 
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brettheviking
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Where I was going is the absolute removal of all nets, period. Commercial/tribal harvest at one weir or fish wheel per river, period. Offering the tribes the position of being the only source of commercial fish with close monitoring by Fish and Wildlife. Are we so sure they would turn down that much money? They seem to be pretty careful with the casinos. 50/50.
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Gooose
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So you intend to prohibit importation of salmon caught out of state? 
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Gooose
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Sorry but that would be a violation of Federal commerce laws.
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Gooose
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So all that you have left is offering the tribes 50% of the fish.
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brettheviking
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No. I would like to ban any exporting of eggs out of Washington.
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Gooose
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No way to ban tribes from doing it. The state sells surplus eggs from hatcheries to outfits like Pautzkes that produce all of those jars of single eggs so popular for trout fishing. Do you believe that the state should be raising even more hatchery fish?
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AuntyM
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My turn!
We, the sportfishers, SHOULD be partnering with tribes that are interested in improving habitat and hatchery operations for the benefit of both. Not a bad idea, but it should not be some sort of mandate. Rather, it should be based on best available practices and a willingness to work together for the common good.
If you don't check your greed at the door, don't bother coming to the party.
Oh, and as far as the eggs are concerned, No eggs from a listed fish should be sold and that should be FEDERAL LAW dammit!
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FireFish
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Why does it often take a womans perspective to make sense of it all.... 
FireFish Out...
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FireFish
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Brett, I'm all for selective harvest. The more of our Tribes that would be willing to jump aboard sooner then later, the better for all. Gooose is right, it would take a combined effort of State and Tribes and this thing could move forward. If we can get the greed out of the equation, and the "what's in it for me attitude" and put the survival of the Native Fish first, we'll be heading in the right direction. Hatcheries to support our Sporties and Tribal Commercial needs, and Selective harvest to protect our Wild Strains…
FireFish Out...
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FireFish
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Fish traps and or wheels are a good method, seem to be a tough sell for anyone to jump on right away. There's a really good article in fall issue of Salmon Steelhead Journal, that shows the success the Colville Tribe is having, and has had for the past two years, in test fisheries with Purse Seine netting. It describes the ability to selectivly remove Native Fish from the catch. The impressive part about it, it the extremely low, low mortality rate. If those number hold true, then they are heading in the right direction. The tough sell here to other Tribes, much more work involved to get your fish numbers, cost are higher and up front cost to convert to this type of operation. But, it's an example in the right direction and Norm Dicks expierenced it first hand, so the State is aware....
FireFish Out...
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AuntyM
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As the Squaxin Tribe quitely conducts their fisheries right under our noses and hardly anyone notices. They're beach seining more than gillnetting these days, and (gasp) they have figured out WHERE to fish to avoid bycatch species.
They suspended a chum fishery to protect Kennedy Creek chums, even though it's "expected" to make escapement. They claim they think it might be better to let lots more than escpaement make it back to spawn. Can you IMAGINE the co-manager, WA doing such an absurd thing?
I call that "taking responsibility" and that kind of thing must be made public. It may not be a huge sacrifice for their fishers, but it's still important and they deserve an atta boy IMO.
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Quote:
brettheviking said:
I can't remember where I read it, but I came across an article about management in Russia that talked about commercial harvest at the mouths of the rivers and how that made selective harvest a guaranteed process. It seemed to work great for the Native Americans for what, 6000 years? That should be the goal. It seems obvious that there are too many nets going after the fish.
What I understand of the Gary Loomis/CCA line is that we started our hatchery program to keep the commercials afloat. Just another subsidy for Corporate America. Can anyone show me where they've put something back into the resource to promote it's survival. As a sport fisherman these aren't the partners I want to watch my back. Now I might piss some folks off here, but give me a chance. Bored on a Sunday night, but the 'Hawks won!
Youre wrong twice. Tribes have been fishing saltwater in addition to the rivers. They are not the model approach we are looking for. They are just as greedy about Todays catch as the nontribal. All you have to do is talk to a tribal cop.
Based on your comment about Loomis, Id say the only comment you read and believed was either Boater, or Freespool. (Freespool actually thinks 99% of our rivers are not fished by the Tribes.) Im also betting, you did not read it here.
You have been sucked into the boater vacuum tube of "The tribes can fullfil the demands for commercial harvest"
The tribes could not come close to filling the US market for fish, let alone the world market of fish. Perhaps you think that local food sources are only sold local. Well you would be wrong. There is a asian market near 180/41st and 84 in kent. They have live fish, swimming in tanks from several foreign countries. Many more dead.
The restaurant in New York wanted to buy steelhead from the OP tribes until Todd and some other guys convinced him and his seafood supplier not to buy them.
Fish Farms in BC already have a large market share, that one poster, Curt, said was larger than the gillnet fleet.(in a certain area)
Over the weekend I found out about these guys.
http://www.ewb-usa.org/donate.php?gclid=CPbs25yt_50CFRlcagodph42oQ
One of their members was on UWTV. He spoke about a water pump project, but he also cited some stats.
90 million children are not just underfed, they are nearly starving.
Over the next 20 years, the developing world population will increase by about 2 billion people. Lets say I misread, 2Billion. Lets says it 2 million people. Find me a local fishery on any continent, and I will bet, there is overharvest of at least one commercial sold fish.
I dont have the time it would take to search out how much fish is consumed throughout the world. One way or another, people who farm and harvest fish, will continue to do so and continue to grow. HOW we meet the demand is more important, to saving our fisheries, because our fisheries are part of the global food market and its going to get much bigger. Many people in India dont even eat two meals a day. In africa, there is a peanut butter like substance made from a bean or nut, that is saving babies from starvation.
Selective harvest is a ncessary tool to save wild fish. But it wont feed the world salmon market.
I met a guy from Wild Fish Conservancy last week. He liked where my idea about segregated commercial harvest and production is used to increase the food supply. He also wants to look at raising salmon in land based farms. Their BC office is getting involved with the problems in the Salmon farms due to the various problems they create. Sea lice and fish waste.
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brettheviking
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The model I'm suggesting isn't being utilized today, so saying I'm wrong because of modern practices misses my point entirely.
The Loomis comment was from Loomis at a PSA Meeting in Olympia.
That the tribes can't meet global harvest demands is no great surprise when you realize that our rivers can't meet global demands either.
Farmed fish is a doomed proposition from the start. Salmon are carnivores and present operations to supply food to fish farms are wiping out ecosystems around the Pacific Rim. It's the "clean coal" of the food world.
Salmon Management is being made way more complicated than it needs to be. Mostly because lawyers, CEO's, and politicians are making bank on not fixing it. You want a fact: salmon runs flourished until whites started managing them. Want another fact: if the Satsop was 100 times bigger, it wouldn't begin to feed India. All the farms across America would have a better chance to do that, and I would rather spend the money on the agriculture system that made this country what it is.
Isn't the number we've spent on salmon recovery over one billion? How many small time gill-netters could we have bought and sent to college for retraining? All of them? Why does the "Allied National Sodomizing Fish Stick Company" whose main office is a P.O. Box in Aruba have the God-given right to fish for salmon until they're gone? And when they're gone we can go to Long John Silvers and get the "new" Shad Basket 'cause there's millions of them.
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Gooose
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"The model I'm suggesting isn't being utilized today, so saying I'm wrong because of modern practices misses my point entirely."
What is our point other than that you don't like nets? Good point. What is the model you are suggesting as so far you seem to be all over the place. First you mention giving the treaty tribes a monopoly on the commercial market for salmon in our state then you switch to wanting to ban export of eggs. Please be concise.
"You want a fact: salmon runs flourished until whites started managing them."
Fact is they have widely fluctuated in numbers over thousands of years absent of the white mans influence. There were numerous years where the the tribes upstream of the Celio Falls on the mighty Columbia had to migrate elsewhere to find enough food to survive because the runs did not flourish for them those years. Even on our coast tribal histories present evidence of starvation due to fluctuations. The perception of flourishing natural resources in a constant state of abundance fails to grasp much about how animal populations and ecosystems function over time.
"Farmed fish is a doomed proposition from the start. Salmon are carnivores and present operations to supply food to fish farms are wiping out ecosystems around the Pacific Rim. It's the "clean coal" of the food world."
Really? Actually there are feed formulations that are derived from soy that only require the addition of a small amount of animal based protein to provide the necessary amino acids. Doomed? No they are not but they will be subject to changes in how they are conducted and what impacts they have yes. You really do need to read more than the "popular" propaganda printed for the masses....from both sides. BTW there will be a commercial hatchery and nursery operation for Black cod aka sablefish starting within the next couple of months in Hood Canal. The industry is expanding, diversifying and evolving.
"Isn't the number we've spent on salmon recovery over one billion? How many small time gill-netters could we have bought and sent to college for retraining?" Excellent point. I've often wondered the same thing. Wouldn't change the issues for the wild salmon much but it would certainly resolve part of the allocation squabble. There's a few dams that need to go away for any significant changes for wild salmonids. BTW the annual expense is running around 1 billion per year if the costs associated with dams are included.
No the tribes are not going to feed the entire world and no the Satsop is never going to do it either even if it was a million times bigger. We agree. You also failed to understand the point made in regards to fisheries as a food resource. Hmmmm which brings up a valid question in return. Which is more important in the big picture? Entertainment or food?
Loomis is a charismatic successful business man and the genesis of the CCA in the PNW. Superb effort to finally organize a portion of sport fishers in a group so they can have a voice in the fisheries arena. Beyond that I am not too sure of his personal grasp of salmonid issues. He is certainly right about the need for selective fishery methods
as part of the future of fish harvest and conservation. Sure wish he could bring himself to recognize publicly that yes there are several dams that need to come out if there is to be fish for the future.
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Gooose
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"What I understand of the Gary Loomis/CCA line is that we started our hatchery program to keep the commercials afloat."
There's a book you should read titled "Making Salmon." The original reason for the first hatcheries on the west coast was to make even more salmon. In other words take an apparently very abundant resource and make it much larger.
Our first steelhead hatcheries were also created for that purpose. BTW our license fees don't fully cover the costs of operating those so they are subsidized. At one time and for a very long time in the late 1800's through the mid 1900's commercial salmon harvest was the "Boeing" of our state's economy as was timber harvest. Salmon harvest paid the bills for running this state as did timber harvest. Keep the commercials afloat? Interesting twist there on history.
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AuntyM
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Quote:
Fact is they have widely fluctuated in numbers over thousands of years absent of the white mans influence. There were numerous years where the the tribes upstream of the Celio Falls on the mighty Columbia had to migrate elsewhere to find enough food to survive because the runs did not flourish for them those years. Even on our coast tribal histories present evidence of starvation due to fluctuations. The perception of flourishing natural resources in a constant state of abundance fails to grasp much about how animal populations and ecosystems function over time.
But you didn't read THAT in any management paper. You can only get that kind of info from studying tribal history/stories and things like the Lewis and Clark Journals. Most of this type of information is readily available these days.
Coastal tribes traded fish with inland tribes as far away as Montana for game and articles not available in their areas, and it was going on for ages and ages. Stuff like Buffalo hides were found on the Oregon Coast... Inland tribes had to rely on their dogs and even horses traded from plains tribes as a food source in years where salmon weren't so abundant. Hunting big game wasn't nearly as easy as people think.
Pre white settlers salmon abundance is a sham.
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brettheviking
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My point is basically that a total revision needs to happen because I believe the resource is headed for absolute collapse if we don't change harvest amounts and habitat degradation. I'm sorry I haven't solved the whole problem in ten posts, but I'll keep at it. You keep correcting me and we'll have this finished in no time.
So if it sounded like at first I wanted one thing and then another let me clarify. I WANT BOTH, and a lot more. Didn't mean to be "switchy" there. The way I see it is the resource has been treated like an ATM account for too long and the egg market is just one aspect that needs to be addressed. On the Hood Canal last summer my dad watched proccessing boats buying fish, gutting them for the eggs, and then running the carcasses through what could be described best as a chipper back into the canal. I want that to stop. I want to be sure that any fish that is killed goes into the food supply and I think the easiest way to do that is by restricting the commercial harvest to one place on each river that is easy to monitor, such as a fish wheel or weir.
No, it's not just the commercials that are to blame. Dams, agriculture, timber, mining, consumers and more should all share in this. The commercials are just sort of the ugly poster child for fisheries abuse. There are examples from all over the world of over-fishing species into collapse. I do not trust them to change on their own here and now. Yes, they did build the Pacific N. Wet, and the political machines they built then are still driving decisions now.
As for the farming, if they can come up with a substitute that puts a complete end to the rape that's going on as we speak, that's great. That hasn't happened; I'll give you "yet". With out going through my whole hippy logic about the real cost of eating meat, we would be better off to eat the soy beans, instead of feeding them to the food we really want to eat. Unless of course you don't care about the worlds starving populations. But I think you do care (do you really think that I'm more moved by entertainment than hunger? A strong implication toward someone you don't know). I also think there are people who have been up to their necks in the bureaucracy of fish management for so long that they fail to see the forest through the trees. I listened to a guy that went on and on about the progress at last years "North of Falcon" (pretty sure that was the name) meeting. I don't see the progress, I see falling returns.
Loomis has a completely different tack on "Making Salmon". Hatcheries were offered in the mitigation proccess to the commercial industry for the reduction of fish from the dams. Dam goes in, fish die, hatchery goes in, commercials get to fish for what we pay for. That book was a focal point in his presentation. You might want to listen to him sometime.
And finally, how many runs of salmon went extinct before the whites came. ZERO.
How many now? How many are close? How many were there on the Elwha? Above Grand Coulee? Were the sixty-pounders on the Lewis a unique strain. Can't tell, they're gone. Small pox was a bigger problem for tribes than fluctuating returns.
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Gooose
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"Loomis has a completely different tack on "Making Salmon". Hatcheries were offered in the mitigation proccess to the commercial industry for the reduction of fish from the dams. Dam goes in, fish die, hatchery goes in, commercials get to fish for what we pay for. That book was a focal point in his presentation. You might want to listen to him sometime."
Brett I am not into Evangelical preachings nor intellectual dishonesty. From that book which came 1st? A bunch of hatcheries or a bunch of dams? If you read the book then you know the answer.
Tell you what...you keep at it. In some ways I agree with you. Good luck. 
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Gooose
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"And finally, how many runs of salmon went extinct before the whites came. ZERO."
There's really no way to verify that one way or the other. What is being better understood today is that Native Americans in the PNW did have some drastic effects on their ecosystem. Did they cause extinctions of salmon runs? There's simply no way to tell. Were they capable of doing so? Yes they were. Is there evidence of native American cultures having drastic effects on fish and wildlife populations? Yes there is. As an introduction to the necessary background information necessary to enter into that discussion I suggest a book titled "1491." Further more detailed information will be provided as the discussion progress'.
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Heck there's a popular theory that early native Americans caused the demise, or contributed to the demise, of Mammoths and other large mammals 12,000 or so years ago by over hunting. (I'm not saying I agree with these theories, but until proven otherwise, it's a possibility).
And what about those glaciers? Talk about mass extinction of PNW salmon and steelhead! But they came back..
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Quote:
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Heck there's a popular theory that early native Americans caused the demise, or contributed to the demise, of Mammoths and other large mammals 12,000 or so years ago by over hunting. (I'm not saying I agree with these theories, but until proven otherwise, it's a possibility).
And what about those glaciers? Talk about mass extinction of PNW salmon and steelhead! But they came back..
It's generally a bad idea to stampede entire herds of animals over a cliff and then only harvest a small fraction of the dead animals. No shortage of archeological evidence that supports the claim either.
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Quote:
Quillback said:
Heck there's a popular theory that early native Americans caused the demise, or contributed to the demise, of Mammoths and other large mammals 12,000 or so years ago by over hunting. (I'm not saying I agree with these theories, but until proven otherwise, it's a possibility).
And what about those glaciers? Talk about mass extinction of PNW salmon and steelhead! But they came back..
It's generally a bad idea to stampede entire herds of animals over a cliff and then only harvest a small fraction of the dead animals. No shortage of archeological evidence that supports the claim either.
We stampede entire fish runs over cliffs all the time. Have you driven along the Columbia and lower Snake Rivers lately? (Aw c'mon, you knew I was gonna go there... )
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AuntyM
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Mojo, I didnt build the dams. I don't even stampede over cliffs myself, during group think.
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Quillback
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Speaking of dams, when the ice age dam that formed lake Missoula burst, well you can still see the evidence out there. Talk about habitat destruction, this was the big one as far as that is concerned. It appears to me that there have been several geologic events in the past that must have just about wiped out PNW salmon, but they managed to come back - without human intervention.
http://www.glaciallakemissoula.org/virtualtour/index.html
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Trouthead
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Look at the latest "Reel News". Nice pictures of wasted fish by the 11th. street launch on the Puyallup. All tribal net caught fish. Some tribes might be working for the fish, some sure are not.
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