Mojo
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Here you go Brett. I'll chime in shortly. 
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Castingpearls
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So, Goose.....
You can't have both?
Edit to rephrase the question:
When you say we can't have both, do you mean we can't manage for both hatchery and wild fish in the same system?
Or do you mean we can't have both period?
Edited by Castingpearls (11/16/09 02:29 PM)
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AuntyM
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Gooose said "The problem inherent with these issues such as hatchery vs wild is that the Pharisee's in charge are trying to maintain the facade that we can have both. Start your new thread and I'll dicuss that."
We can, in fact, have both. It would require NOAA F rewrite the rules for ESA listed fish though.
Rivers/streams with good habitat and adequate natural/wild spawners would not have hatchery production. Those that don't get declared as such and hatcheries are OK. Only way it makes sense.
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Castingpearls
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So if there is evidence that even a very small number of wild fish are present in a river, there should not be any hatchery production?
What determines "adequate"?
Not disagreeing with that but just trying to understand.
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jimh
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I think we choose some rivers that are Wild rivers and some that aren't. There will always be Wild fish that are transient and/or are in the "wrong" river. If you said only the Wild fish matter, there are no hatchery fish in any rivers.
Meanwhile, the Wild fish still get caught offshore and by incidental by catch. I think the netters don't care if the fish are Wild or not.
In the animal realm, Wild animals have been released to recover their range. I can't see any reason why hatcheries couldn't use Wild stock.
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Castingpearls
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Quote:
jimh said:
I think we choose some rivers that are Wild rivers and some that aren't. There will always be Wild fish that are transient and/or are in the "wrong" river. If you said only the Wild fish matter, there are no hatchery fish in any rivers.
So do we just forget about those wild fish because there is a productive hatchery on a given river? That's my question, who gets to determine whether a river should be managed for recovery of wild fish or should be a designated "hatchery" river?
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alanmikkelsen
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The problem that I have with this whole issue is that people are trying to simplify it. Take the Clearwater river in Idaho, for example. There is a large hatchery run, although much smaller this year, since a hatchery mistake killed a million or so fry a couple years ago. There is also a pretty good wild run, witnessed by the fact that wild fish are currently making up anywhere from 50% to 80% of the hookups. Having said that, fishing is really slow because of the non-returning hatchery fry of two years ago. So, should the Clearwater have a hatchery? It's obviously producing wild fish. However, Dworshak Dam blocked off hundreds of miles of prime spawning habitat, so the hatchery makes up for that. There is simply no way to practically take Dworshak hatchery offline and expect to have any sort of a recreational fishery. My two cents.
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Mojo
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Alan, add to the mix the fact that there are native, genetically pure fish spawning in the Selway, and many genetically polluted wild fish in the Lochsa and South Fork of the Clearwater. There are still pure native steelhead in several other smaller tribs of the Clearwater system. How do we separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.
Does this mean we shut down the Columbia because pure wild fish transit it to get to their natal streams?
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Edited by Mojo (11/16/09 05:48 PM)
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jimh
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Right now, nobody is deciding. I'm fine with you deciding as long as the number of rivers is something greater than zero.
For instance, I'd be fine with Sky being the wild one and Snoqualmie being the hatchery one or vice versa.
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Lead_Bouncer
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That would have to a very large run, to accommodate the crowds on one river. The raging and Tolt no longer get planted, if I heard correctly. Snoqualmie summer runs have been discontinued. It was fun for some, but the fish went all the way to the falls and hung out around the power house. Not easy to collect.
Ive been up high on the Tolt, its a great little river. I think it use to have a wild run on it.
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brettheviking
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So far it seems fair to say that we want both and need to figure out the best way to declare which rivers are native only and which are hatchery fed. Dam location seems like a big red flag-type indicator for that. Start off with the smallers systems that have one dam. How about a radical expansion of the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act? That might get rivers with marginal native runs the habitat protection they need to become solid native fish producers. And free birth control for gillnetters.
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Gooose
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"Meanwhile, the Wild fish still get caught offshore and by incidental by catch. I think the netters don't care if the fish are Wild or not."
Jim it seems that a considerable number of hook and line fishers don't care either.
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jimh
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Probably Gooose.
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Gooose
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So how does a river with a maximum natural production of 1000 wild Chinook spawners continue to have a viable run if those fish have to survive amongst the fisheries upon hatchery and other fish.
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Gooose
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Castin I really do not believe that say in a watershed that has several small stocks of wild fish along with a larger hatchery presence that the wild fish stocks can ever be maintained as viable populations. This can be expanded to say that those smaller wild stocks are not viable amongst a large ecosystem dominated by hatchery presence. Hood Canal would be an example of this. There are many others. You can have one or the other but not both.
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AuntyM
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Quote:
Gooose said:
So how does a river with a maximum natural production of 1000 wild Chinook spawners continue to have a viable run if those fish have to survive amongst the fisheries upon hatchery and other fish.
You and I both know the answer to this dillema, and sport fishers won't like it one bit. If "opportunity" is valued higher than setting aside rivers for wild production, the wild fish lose and are extirpated.
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Gooose
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Yes it is very much a dilemma and it isn't just sportfishers whom won't like it one bit. But it is truth no matter how distasteful. There may be a few wild runs that could remain viable if protected by set asides but not many.
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jimh
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I think its pretty simple, but not a happy ending for all. Like I said, we choose which ones fail instead of letting them all fail which is what's happening now.
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AuntyM
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Quote:
jimh said:
I think its pretty simple, but not a happy ending for all. Like I said, we choose which ones fail instead of letting them all fail which is what's happening now.
+1
And who knows what "other" species will be affected when we have such failures.
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Castingpearls
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Quote:
AuntyM said:
And who knows what "other" species will be affected when we have such failures.
That makes me wonder. What if a river has little or no wild steelhead in it, making it a good candidate for hatchery production. Yet there is a presence of a declining run of wild chinook in the river. Can a river have a large hatchery steelhead presence without negatively effecting the chinook stock?
Or coho?
Or chum?
Or cutthroat?
Or... whatever other fish are in that river?
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AuntyM
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Please see my post to Sass in the fisheries education thread.
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workin4fishin
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Quote:
That makes me wonder. What if a river has little or no wild steelhead in it, making it a good candidate for hatchery production. Yet there is a presence of a declining run of wild chinook in the river. Can a river have a large hatchery steelhead presence without negatively effecting the chinook stock?
Or coho?
Or chum?
Or cutthroat?
Or... whatever other fish are in that river?
YES - Vedder/Chilliwack river system in BC, just to name one almost local river.
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Mojo
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So what about the Hanford Reach? It has a viable, harvestable run of wild, native fall chinook? Do we have to stop fishing for these fish? They seem to be doing quite well even with the massive net and sport fishery they face in the lower river (plus ocean troll fisheries etc.).
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Mojo
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I guess my real question is, what determines whether a run of wild, native fish is actually harvestable? I don't think you could get 3 out of 10 sporties to agree on most rivers, let alone different minded user groups.
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AuntyM
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Two words for us and two for you. Selective fishing and catch and release.
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alanmikkelsen
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I'm a little confused here, Marsha. (Normal state of affairs). Are you saying that downriver fishers can practice selective fishing and upriver fishers can simply do catch and release?
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AuntyM
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I'm not convinced there is such a thing as "harvestable" native or wild fish runs. If they truly are harvestable, they should ONLY be harvested in their home water, and not in BC, AK, or by downriver sporties/commercials/tribes.
Mixed stock, commercial, recreational and tribal take of unmarked chinook, coho or steelhead needs to end IMO. Only low numbers of release mortality will I tolerate.
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Mojo
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I'll buy your argument for most tribs, but in the case of the Hanford Reach fall chinook that would mean shutting down the Columbia River from Buoy 10 to above the confluence with the Snake. I don't think anyone is going to support that, considering that run is self sustaining, if not increasing in numbers. It would also mean shutting down the ocean charter fleet out of Warrenton and Ilwaco and the coast of Washington all summer.
I completely believe that all hatcheries need to 100% fin clip. In the ocean all stocks are mixed. If we are only fin clipping an arbitrary percentage of the hatchery smolts, we might as well not clip any. THEN, we should hold everyone (tribes included) to a wild fish release standard.
Yeah I know it is a fantasy world, but the sceneryu is nice here and the beer is always cold...
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AuntyM
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Quote:
I'll buy your argument for most tribs, but in the case of the Hanford Reach fall chinook that would mean shutting down the Columbia River from Buoy 10 to above the confluence with the Snake. I don't think anyone is going to support that, considering that run is self sustaining, if not increasing in numbers. It would also mean shutting down the ocean charter fleet out of Warrenton and Ilwaco and the coast of Washington all summer.
Where on earth do you get your conclusion that it would shut down the CR??? You MUST not understand what "selective fishing" is? It means EVERYONE below releases unmarked chinook and if there are truly harvestable numbers, they get harvested close to home, NOT downriver.
You just like to pick nits I guess?
You want recovery and sustainability, you have to give something up. That something ought to be ocean harvests by everybody.
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Mojo
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Seriously, what would happen to the Buoy 10 and LCR fall chinook fishery if selective rules were imposed? Less than 30% of the URB run is of hatchery origin. Lots of Tules harvested...
Look I had to dig really deep to find 1 river with a self sustaining harvestable population. It isn't like this is going to be a big problem for a while.
I still think the best thing we can do overall is force all hatcheries to go 100% mark, and manage mixed stocks (the ocean especially) to C&R all unmarked fish. You mak a good point, let the locals harvest them. It'll only make fishing better for the upriver guys. Also it'll bring more money east, which will imporve our local economy.
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