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River Fishing >> Goverment & Science and Fisheries Management  

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Otto
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Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report
      #99639 - 02/06/04 07:17 PM

NEWS RELEASE
Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
February 6, 2004
Contact: Craig Bartlett, (360) 902-2259

Commission adopts two-year moratorium
on wild steelhead retention statewide

OLYMPIA - The Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission today adopted new sportfishing rules for the 2004-05 season that include a two-year moratorium on retaining any wild steelhead caught in state waters.

The moratorium, adopted on a 5-3 vote, will require anglers to release any steelhead caught from April 1, 2004 to March 31, 2006 that is not marked as a hatchery fish by a missing adipose fin and a healed scar.

Drawing from a list of 463 proposed changes - 336 of them submitted by the public - the commission also adopted new handling requirements for releasing salmon and steelhead that cannot be retained, additional protection for Columbia River sturgeon and fixed starting dates for recreational crab fishing.

Commissioners also declined to take action on several proposals, including one to ban treble hooks in saltwater fisheries and another to prohibit the use of motorized vessels on the Satsop and Wynoochee Rivers.

Commissioner R.P. Van Gytenbeek of Seattle initiated the discussion about requiring the release of wild steelhead by calling for a permanent ban on wild steelhead retention. When that motion failed, the commission considered and rejected the idea of a six-year moratorium before scaling it back to two years.

"In this case, I think a half a loaf is better than no loaf at all," Van Gytenbeek said. "A lot of people in this state are concerned about the decline of our wild steelhead stocks and I think a moratorium gets us started down the right path."

Commission Chair Will Roehl of Bellingham did not share that view, noting that the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) is currently working on a new comprehensive plan for steelhead management, tailored to specific stocks.

"I can't support banning retention of wild steelhead on rivers where stocks are healthy and returns are strong," Roehl said. "I don't think this broad-brush action is warranted, but that appears to be the will of commission."

When releasing steelhead or salmon that cannot be retained under state law, anglers will have to follow new handling procedures approved today by the commission. Measures adopted by the commission prohibit completely removing salmon or steelhead caught in lakes or streams from the water or pulling them into a boat in Puget Sound prior to release.

To provide greater protection for Columbia River sturgeon, the commission extended the closed area below Bonneville Dam approximately two miles downstream to Marker 85 from May 1 to July 31. All sturgeon fishing - whether from a boat or from the bank - will be prohibited in the expanded closure area, where the fish tend to congregate.

In addition, the annual harvest of sturgeon for personal use was reduced from 10 fish to five statewide, and sturgeon seasons recently developed in conjunction with Oregon were adopted as permanent rules for the 2004-05 season.

Recreational crabbers, meanwhile, can expect greater certainty in the timing of their seasons in the coming year. For the first time since 2000, the commission set opening dates for each marine area rather than relying on tests to determine when the crab have finished their molt.

Improved data on molting periods provided by WDFW allowed the commission to set opening dates this year for crab fisheries in all 13 marine areas of Puget Sound and the Washington coast, Roehl said.

"We're pleased that we've reached this point," Roehl said. "Now we have the data we need to protect the resource, while allowing people to plan their vacations."

In other matters the commission:

· Clarified rules prohibiting snagging, making it illegal to hook and retain a fish (other than forage fish) to the rear of its gill plate.
· Adopted a three-month catch-and-release fishery for trout and other gamefish on the Cedar River in King County.
· Adopted permanent regulations banning retention of canary rockfish and prohibited spearfishing for any species of rockfish.
· Set new daily hours (9 .m. to 1 p.m. on days open to shrimp fishing) for designated Puget Sound shrimp districts such as Port Angeles Harbor and Discovery bay. It also extended the Port Townsend Shrimp District north of the Port Townsend ship canal to include Kilisut Harbor.
· Extended the Octopus Hole Conservation Area in Hood Canal to include the adjacent tidelands.
· Set new hours for harvesting clams and oysters on a number of beaches and set new bag limits and seasons for rivers and lakes throughout the state.

These and other measures adopted by the commission will appear in WDFW's 2004-05 Sport Fishing Rules pamphlet.

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Fishingjunky15
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Otto]
      #99641 - 02/06/04 07:25 PM

YEAH!!!!!!!!!!! Looks like WDFW finally listened for once!

--------------------
They say that the man that gets a Ph.D. is the smart one. But I think that the man that learns how to get paid to fish is the smarter one.

Edited by Fishingjunky15 (02/06/04 07:40 PM)


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Eddie
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Fishingjunky15]
      #99643 - 02/06/04 07:34 PM

Great news - made my night!!!!

--------------------
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RP McMurphy - One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.


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cupo
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Eddie]
      #99649 - 02/06/04 08:17 PM

I like it. It's nice to see some conservative measures. Now that sport anglers are required to release natives it will give us some high ground to stand on when pointing the finger at other user groups who keep them.

--------------------
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Plunker
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: cupo]
      #99652 - 02/06/04 09:06 PM


This is the most biased and idiotic decision the commission has ever made.

It is resource allocation based upon political favoritism and has no basis in conservation reality. There is nothing to indicate that over harvest has caused the current declines of the inland steelhead stocks. Those rivers where no harvest and in some cases no fishing is allowed have equally reflected the current steelhead cycles.

The coastal stocks have been showing a trend towards increasing numbers despite somewhat extreme harvest pressure.

They have lied and blindsided us with their public statement that the total ban on steelhead harvest would not be considered this rule cycle.

Washington and Idaho are now the only two places in the Pacific Northwest with a total prohibition on wild steelhead harvest including stocks with adult returns as much as twice that required for spawning escapement.

Thanks to the scumbags in the Wild Steelhead Coalition I will never again purchase another fishing license in this state!

I'm outa here - Plunk

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Why are wild fish made of meat?


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spoontosser
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Plunker]
      #99678 - 02/07/04 05:04 AM

Great news!


Edited by spoontosser (02/07/04 05:05 AM)


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POS Clerk
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: spoontosser]
      #99686 - 02/07/04 06:26 AM

Plunker

Oregon also is generally a wild release State with only a few exceptions where wild steelhead harvest is extreemly limited... 1 per day / 5 per year and most of those were implimented only after harvest was stopped and the wild numbers improved. Until this year it was only allowed in two rivers in the whole state.
Now that our wild numbers have improved so much we are slowly adding more streams to harvest


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H2H
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: POS Clerk]
      #99697 - 02/07/04 08:54 AM

Plunker,
This is great news for the steelhead!
You should look at the numbers before you talk numbers!
Brian
AKA Homer2handed

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Brian






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MartyAdministrator
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: H2H]
      #99700 - 02/07/04 10:12 AM

On the surface this sounds like good news... We will see how sharp the blade is on the other side of the sword.

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Marty

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Chromeo
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Marty]
      #99704 - 02/07/04 10:45 AM



Chromeo

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BP
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Chromeo]
      #99709 - 02/07/04 11:10 AM

Phone: 360-902-2267
commission@dfw.wa.gov

http://wdfw.wa.gov/com/comintro.htm

Commission members are hand picked by the Governor.

Commission Members:

------------------------------------------------------------ --

Will Roehl, Chair ~ Voted Against proposal

Will Roehl was first appointed to the Commission in July 1997 and was reappointed to a six-year term in January 2003. Roehl served as vice chair from January 2001 until he was elected chair in January 2003. He is an attorney with a commercial practice in Bellingham. He and a brother own a customs brokerage business that facilitates importation/ exportation of chemical, petroleum, fish and forest products. He is co-owner of a business based in Eugene, Oregon. He attended Whitman College (B.A. Economics) and the University of Puget Sound School of Law. He held elective office in Whatcom County, including service on a 1978 Board of Freeholders and 11 years as a member of the Whatcom Co. Council. He has served on boards of numerous non-profit organizations and devoted time to various civic efforts. He is committed to restoring Washington's salmon runs while avoiding conflicts between commercial and recreational fishers. Roehl and his wife Kelli Linville live in Bellingham. (Roehl's current term expires in December 2008.)

Ron Ozment, Vice-Chair ~ Voted Against proposal

Ron Ozment was appointed to the Commission in September 2001 to serve a six-year term and was elected vice chair in January 2003. He is a dairy producer and cattle breeder who owns and operates the 200-acre Riviera Jersey Farm north of Cathlamet. Ozment served as Wahkiakum County Commissioner from 1989 through 2000 and, while holding that office, was the County's representative on the Lower Columbia Fish Recovery Board, the Water Resource Inventory Areas 25/26 Board, the Southwest Clean Air Agency, and the Cowlitz/ Wahkiakum Council of Governments. He also is a former member and chair of the Wahkiakum County Planning Commission and a former member of the U.S. Agricultural Stabilization and Conservation Committee and the U.S. Farm Home Administration's (now the Rural Development Administration) Agricultural and Housing Loan Eligibility Committee serving Wahkiakum, Cowlitz, Clark, and Skamania counties. Ozment and his wife Anne live in Cathlamet. They have three children and six grandchildren. (Ozment's current term expires in December 2006.)

Russ Cahill ~ Voted For proposal

Russ Cahill was appointed to the Commission in April 1998 to fill a five-year vacancy and in December 1999 he was reassigned to fill a one-year vacancy. He was reappointed to a six-year term in September 2001. He served as vice chairman from January 1999 until he was elected chair in January 2001 for a two year term. He retired in 1997 after 40 years of work, mostly in the fields of natural resources, parks, and law enforcement. He has been a trustee and board chairman of the Washington Nature Conservancy and a trustee of the National Parks and Conservation Association. He has served on the boards of several Washington State and local conservation organizations. An avid fisherman, hiker, and bird watcher, he has walked, cross-country skied, and paddled over most of the state. Cahill and his wife Narda Pierce live in Olympia. He has three children and four grandchildren. (Cahill's current term expires in December 2006.)

John A. Hunter IV ~ Trying to find voting record for John.

John was appointed to the Commission in July 2003 to serve a six-year term. John brings both private industry and public service experience to the Commission. In the private sector, John’s BA in Economics and Business led to a thirty plus year career in sales/marketing and distribution management focused on the post harvest needs of the tree fruit industry in the Pacific Northwest. During his past fifteen years public service involvement, John has served as Councilman and Mayor of the City of Cashmere, and as Chelan County Commissioner. John has served as a volunteer and on the board of directors of numerous private and public entities involved with improving our social, economic, and environmental living conditions in Washington. John is committed to a balanced approach in the maintenance and enhancement of our natural resources for the enjoyment and appreciation of all Washingtonians. John and his wife, Renee, have an empty nest as their two children and two foster daughters now make their homes in various locations within Washington State. (Hunter’s current term expires in December 2008.)

Lisa Pelly ~ Voted For Proposal

Lisa Pelly was appointed to the Commission in January 1994 to serve a five-year term. She served as vice chair from January 1996 to January 1997. She served as chair from January 1997 to January 1999, the first woman to serve in that position. She was reappointed to a six-year term in February 1999. A lifelong resident of Washington, she has a deep and passionate commitment to the state and the protection of its natural resources. She serves on the board of directors for Washington Conservation Voters, Farming and the Environment and the Washington Wildlife and Recreation Coalition and is the founder and past president of the Northwest Women Flyfishers. She enjoys spending time outdoors, hiking and fishing. Pelly lives on Bainbridge Island. (Pelly's current term expires in December 2004).

Fred Shiosaki ~ Trying to find voting record for Fred.

Fred Shiosaki was appointed to the Commission in February 1999 to serve a six-year term. He was a member of the all Japanese-American 442nd Infantry Regiment. He graduated from Gonzaga University in Chemistry and attended the University of Washington Graduate School. After working as the Spokane City Chemist, he set up the Spokane County Air Pollution Control Authority and served as its Director and Control Officer for 11 years. In 1978, he was hired to manage the Environmental Affairs
Department for the Washington Water Power Company and retired from there in 1989. For more than eight years he was a member of the Washington Ecological Commission and served as its chair for seven years. His professional applications have been the Air Pollution Control Association and the Northwest Electric Light and Power Association. He is a member of the Exchange Club of Downtown Spokane, Trout Unlimited, Disabled American Veterans, and the Inland Empire Fly Fishing Club. He has been a flyfisher for more than 30 years and is involved in his clubs' educational and conservation programs. In the recent past, he trained springer spaniels and hunted birds. Shiosaki and his wife Lily live in Spokane. They have a son, Michael and daughter, Nancy. (Shiosaki's current term expires in December 2004.)

Bob Tuck ~ Voted For Proposal

Bob Tuck was appointed to the Commission in April 1998 to fill a two-year vacancy and reappointed to a six-year term in September 2001. He is a private consultant, providing technical and program assistance on a variety of fisheries, habitat, and water activities and projects in Washington and Oregon. He also provides technical coordination and assistance for an environmental education program involving numerous school districts in Central Washington. Tuck and his wife Lynn live in Selah. (Tuck's current term expires in December 2006.)

R.P. "Van" Van Gytenbeek ~ Voted For Proposal

Van Van Gytenbeek was appointed to the Commission in February 1999 to serve a six- year term. He is the publisher of Fly Fishing in Salt Waters magazine in Seattle. He has more than 30 years of management experience in the private sector, is a retired artillery captain, and has authored two books on trout and streamside conservation. He is the former executive director of Trout Unlimited and has held various board or board memberships in a number of recreational organizations, including the International Fly Fishers Federation, American Museum of Fly Fishing, the American League of Anglers, and the Trout and Salmon Foundation. Van Gytenbeek and his wife Elizabeth live in Seattle. They have three children and one grandchild. (Van Gytenbeek's current term expires in December 2004.)



Mandatory statewide catch and release of wild steelhead never went through the rule change process, sport fisherman were blind sided. Following is the 2004 rule change proposals:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/regs/proposals/2004proposals.pdf

This rule change was essentially snuck in, the public never had the opportunity to review or address the rule change.

This is a feel good policy that has no scientific data to back it up. The rule change unfairly targets sport fisherman while continuing to allow tribal and commercial fisherman to kill wild steelhead statewide.

A number of sport fishing groups were working to push this through and support this policy. I have identified two groups so far.

· Wild Steelhead Coalition

· Trout Unlimited

I urge everyone to speak up regarding this issue and work towards getting this rule change overturned.


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Bossman
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Chromeo]
      #99710 - 02/07/04 11:12 AM

Too bad about the Satsop/Wynoochee ban. It would have been a good step toward legislating a little common sense. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

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Musicman
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Bossman]
      #99713 - 02/07/04 11:34 AM

I agree with Marty, let's time will tell if this was a good thing!

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micropterus101
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Musicman]
      #99716 - 02/07/04 11:42 AM

Hmmm? I think not. Depends on foregone opportunity thing.

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MartyAdministrator
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: micropterus101]
      #99717 - 02/07/04 11:57 AM

I am not happy with how it was backdoored into the commission and yes I am very concerned with foregone opportunity. This was done without assurances from the tribes they won't harvest "the excess".
But on another note the fishing has declined and protectionism is a good thing. But is this the correct legal and political choice. Personally I don't think it is for the Forks area rivers. Using blanket management is a huge leap of faith.

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BP
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Marty]
      #99718 - 02/07/04 12:08 PM

Yea Marty I was shocked to hear about this yesterday. I too am for protecting our wild fish, but this is not the way to do it.

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AuntyM
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #99719 - 02/07/04 12:27 PM

Really Bruce? Well, why don't you explain to this board how it SHOULD be done? Please share with us what you and your organization is doing to help recover wild steelhead?

Quite possibly, this was done to placate the groups who've been pressuring the commission. If that's what it takes to get positive changes, so be it. WSC is not a group of wacko extremists. These are ordinary fishermen (and NOT just elitist fly guys) worrying about 20 years of decline and trying to prevent it.

WSC, I salute you.



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BP
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: AuntyM]
      #99721 - 02/07/04 12:37 PM

How about this:

In combination with the mandatory statewide release of wild steelhead, we also shut down all steelhead hatcheries? Everyone knows that hatchery steelhead compete with wild fish right? We could also just close the rivers completely to fishing, that would definatly help right? Why stop at the statewide release? Sport fisherman should just quit fishing, then the fish would certainly rebound right? Think again, sport fishing is NOT the problem here!


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RICH G
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: AuntyM]
      #99722 - 02/07/04 12:39 PM

You said it Aunty,

I have been a member of the WSC since the beginning. I have not gone to the meeting's or gone to other imoportant events mostly because I have lived way out in the sticks and now almost in Idaho, but believe me for that I feel guilty. I do feel good I support a group that has helped to get this action and believe me, I will be more involved when I get back to that side of the mountians.


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Eddie
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: RICH G]
      #99724 - 02/07/04 12:47 PM

OK, just got back from some fishing, didn't catch any, native or hatchery so I guess I haven't offended anyone here. Let me see if I can respond to a variety of posts here.

In looking at the declining resource of anadromous fish there is no magic bullet I believe. There are the 4 H's however.

Hydro - This one is pretty obvious on the Columbia, Snake, Skagit, Cowlitz and even some smaller rivers like the Green, Pilchuck, Skookumchuck, etc. There certainly does not seem to be the political will to tackle this issue head on and quite frankly I'm not totally convinced that the price of removal is justified. But, there is no question that Dams have had a terrible impact on the resource.

Hatcheries - Mainly in place for two reasons - Mitigation for loss of spawning habitat due to Hydro/other factors and mitigation for over harvest. This is an area that I believe we can find some common ground on, there are hatchery programs (Long Live the Kings come to mind) that do not carry the negative impact on wild fish that other hatcheries do. I think we can work on this one.

Habitat - In my mind, the biggest obstacle to recovery. We have removed habitat through dams, we have spoiled habitat through development. With this issue we run right smack dab into the face of private property rights. This is the one that will require the most education and probably be the most expensive if we can solve it.

Which brings us to the 4th H - Harvest. As Richard Nixon used to say, "Let me perfectly clear about this". I believe that the tribal harvest of steelhead serves virtually no useful purpose to the tribes, and certainly has a terrible and negative impact on the resource. I believe that sports harvest of wild steelhead serves virtually no useful purpose to the sportfishing community and certainly has a terrible and negative impact on the resource. For the next two years, if we as individuals and as a community obey the regulation, we have 1/2 of the equation in hand. Now is time to go after the other 1/2. Foregone opportunity?? As GW says, Bring it on - I would love to see the courts rule on this so that it won't continue as the bogeyman that we make it out to be. If the courts rule that foregone opportunity is a legitimate concept, so be it - we have to deal with it. If the courts throw out the idea, then we can go forward without the threat. My comments about tribal fishing have always been offered from the viewpoint that if we point fingers only at the tribes without acknowledging our portion of the responsibility, we have no credibility. That's why it disturbs me so when I see BP write that the sportfishing community is not the problem. See above, the sportsfishing community is not the problem but we are part of the problem. As long as we don't acknowledge that, we bring nothing to the negotiation table except hypocrisy and we will never get anything done. As long as folks don't punch their cards properly, any contention that the tribal fishery reports are bogus boomerang back on us. It's so easy to blame everyone else - its really about personal responsibility isn't it?

I believe that we need to find a way of mitigating the impact of the tribal fisheries on the wild fish. Salmo had an idea on PP a while back of harvesting the fish from holding ponds at the dams - that kind of creativity is refreshing. Personally, I would love to see fish wheels/traps come back into use for the tribal harvest as the impact on the wild fish is much less. Can we buy the fishing rights from the tribes? This is America - seemingly everything is for sale so it might be possible. What I know will not work is to try and rewrite the Court decisions that have affirmed Boldt. That really is a non starter. I know that blaming the tribes without accepting our responsibility and working on the other impacts is also a non starter. However, creative, passionate minds came up with many brilliant human achievements - I believe we can do this too. With this decision, I think we can come to the table with credibility and negotiate with our heads high.

--------------------
"You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman!"

RP McMurphy - One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.


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BP
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Eddie]
      #99729 - 02/07/04 01:11 PM

I give up...

Good luck in your battles fighting the tribes and commercials. My steelhead gear is officially retired and I will join you in your efforts to save our wild fish by supporting a total ban on sportfishing for steelhead and closing our hatcheries.


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #99732 - 02/07/04 01:37 PM

Right On!!!! Hopefully we can begin to put pressure on the tribes to stop harvesting. I wounder what it would cost the state?

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MartyAdministrator
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: FishrofMn]
      #99734 - 02/07/04 02:19 PM

why should the tribes stop harvesting? Our bios and the tribes say there escapements are going up on the op rivers. We don't have a leg to stand on according to the courts and now we will see how the tribe participates in good faith.

Alls this did is increase there netting days and for one who has fished behind them .... This is not a good thing!!

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Marty]
      #99740 - 02/07/04 03:17 PM

If anyone thinks that the tribes or commercials will quit harvesting they are on drugs.

Save our fish! Quit fishing and close the hatcheries! It's the only way.. Sport fisherman took in the rear and some of them are smiling about it. Unreal..


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Marty]
      #99741 - 02/07/04 03:17 PM

I would like to think that for most of us the thrill of fishing or steelheading is catching the fish, not killing it. How many fish do we need to stack in our freezers or smokers anyway. It is tough to accept broad brush aggressive steps , however it may prove that this action was just what we needed. We can still go out and freeze our hinies off in pursuit of that sweet ring of our line as it rips off of our reels . Just let them live another day and perhaps help the fisherey grow.

Just my thoughts,

Paul


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: baldfish]
      #99744 - 02/07/04 03:57 PM

To all you guys who are saying your going stop fishing because of this. Get a LIFE!
This is for the STEELHEAD!

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: H2H]
      #99748 - 02/07/04 04:25 PM

Initially, the tribes WON'T stop harvesting wild steelhead. I doubt they will attempt to use the foregone opportunity. If they want to test the issue, I think it will be an unpleasant surprise for them. WDFW won't be the whipping boy on this issue. This fight will probably be fought by the enviro groups who stand a much better chance at winning. When you combine their efforts with sport groups wanting the conservation of their allocation, you may have a force to reckon with. Tribes will find it harder to cry "starving and poor" when most, if not all have casino's etc... Plus, the economic gain of those fish is slight. Almost negligible. The times they are changing. I hope at least one tribe recognizes that and surprises us!

As Dave Vedder pointed out someplace else... Steelhead fishing has improved dramatically in places that instituted C&R like BC. Golly, they seem to be attracting an awful lot of folks from our state to their incredible fishing!

This is just the beginning of the hard work. Habitat and water quality issues, hatchery REFORM (closure my butt) etc still need our attention.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: AuntyM]
      #99763 - 02/07/04 06:02 PM

Aunty,

THe Quileute Tribe is already practicing Forgone Opportunity. THey increased fishing from a quota to a scedule after the upper tribs went CnR 8 years ago or so. They are fishing 4.5 now which is really 5 as steelhead dont make the run at night anyways so missing a night isnt really loosing anything. They keep this scedule untill the end of march then its 3.5 days a week wich is really 4 untill the end of april or so. After the first week of January there arnt really and wild fish anymore accept for the small numbers of Snider fish that come back.

There is no way we could loose any more than we are on the Quileute System.


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: RICH G]
      #99764 - 02/07/04 06:09 PM

Rich,

An agreed to allocation does NOT mean it is literally foregone opportunity. It's the label some have applied to your above scenario, but this has NOT been tested in the courts. I respect Todd's legal opinion and I am fairly certain he doesn't think this is an issue AT ALL. That would mean to me that he has examined this from just about any angle. I also think he is NOT the only one who has put his focus on this in the legal context. I feel confident WSC has a plan and I am equally confident that WSC is trying to keep steelhead fishing around for many years. You guys are pretty hard core fishermen!

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BP
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: AuntyM]
      #99767 - 02/07/04 06:22 PM

I'd like to see their grand plan.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: AuntyM]
      #99768 - 02/07/04 06:29 PM

Aunty,

Evevn though it may not be forgone opportunity such an agreed allocation serves the same purpose to them as it has. We havent harvested our allocation on the Quileute system for a good while so the tribe and the state have agreed on what we have now.

I believe we should eventually get those fish back due to what has happened now. If we do not want to utilize our alocation for harvest and instead for maximum CnR opportunity how can we get that if a percentage of our alocation has already been taken because the trend has shown we dont utilize it for harvest. It has to get past the nets in order for us to have an opportunity to utilize it as we have chosen. As of now the system is managed for harvest so it dosent matter if we get an opportunity to harvest our entire allocation because the trend has shown we dont ever come close with the effort put forth. If we dont harvest our allocation because it is agianst the law how can the entire system me managed for harvest. In theory it cant so the tribe cant take more than its allocation so as to give us maximum opportunity for CnR of our allocation.


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #99769 - 02/07/04 06:45 PM

Perhaps if you join Bruce, and attend their meetings they'll share it with you.

The press would be all over this if sport fishermen give up wild steelhead retention as a conservation effort and tribes took those wild fish. It would get at least as much attention as Makah's and whales.

Pretty hard to keep playing that "stewards of conservation" commercial once the conservation minded public hears about it.

How many customers at the casinos would some tribes lose? Do you REALLY think they want to fight this fight with us? I don't think so. The sky may be falling (Skykomish River) but the other sky (blue) isn't.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: AuntyM]
      #99771 - 02/07/04 06:54 PM

I think within a couple of years attitudes like Bruces will be a part of the past and we will be on a new road for wild steelhead and salmon management.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: RICH G]
      #99774 - 02/07/04 07:08 PM

Oh,
one more thing I woulndt epect the tribes are gonna be very happy about this whole CnR thing. They are not gonna come out and say it but they are gonna start to get a little worried.

From personal experience and conversations I know for a fact most tribal fisherman from the tribe I know are very opposed to CnR sport fishing. Many of them justify what they do due to the fact that they believe we do the same thing. You figure it out in your own mind.


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BP
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: RICH G]
      #99779 - 02/07/04 07:29 PM

Rich, my attitude has already changed. I fully support a total ban on steelhead fishing statewide and closure of all steelhead hatcheries. I will personally have zero impact on our wild steelhead populations. Think I'm kidding?

So Aunty I guess the only way to see the grand plan it is join the ranks?


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #99781 - 02/07/04 07:46 PM

Aunty when did the hoh and quilayute tribe get casinos?

I still don't see where we gain from this on the hoh and quilayute systems which this new rule is focused on since most other systems in the state are already closed to keeping wild fish. I like to think of myself as a hardcore fisherman too.

OK I will bite... whats the next leap of faith? and please tell me why it will work to the fishes/sportsman favor.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #99795 - 02/07/04 11:19 PM

The comparison to BC is not valid. There are too many other differing factors to make an accurate comparison. For one, their department of fisheries (I know it's not called that, but I couldn't remember its name) actually places the interests of sport fishing above commercial and tribal. Another thing is that their local government has for more control over tribal netting than ours does. Yes, BC has much better fishing than we do in almost every fishery but to lay credit with C&R without even mentioning the other factors that are much more significant is deceptive to say the least.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: JacobF]
      #99809 - 02/08/04 06:20 AM

Marty,

A small minority of tribes don't have casino's. In the equation, I don't think it matters. What matters is that most of the tribes that do, won't want the bad press from NOT being conservation minded. Wasn't it the Quileutes that were pressured into removing their nets two winters ago? If it worked with them.....

What I hope this new rule will do is to put the focus on steelhead as a game fish and not a food fish, for everyone.
I don't have any inside info. My focus (and what little influence I have) for the next step is towards educating retailers to purchase only hatchery fish from the tribes.

In the short term, sport fishermen likely won't see any benefit. Long term, an improved world class fishery that should be better than BC's.

Dead fish don't spawn. I think the bio's have been wrong about carrying capacity all along. I think allowing more wild fish to spawn and die to seed the streams will show that increase in carrying capacity.

I hope groups like WSC continue to pressure WDFW on the harvest numbers they keep agreeing to.

The key is.... can this be done while still planting hatchery fish? I think it can. I think there is anecdotal evidence that a decrease in hatchery plants leads to a higher survival rate of both hatchery AND wild fish. Although, the Quinaults seem to be able to pull it off.

If Dave Vedder is correct, we will see a drop in steelhead fishing, at least on those systems that are currently open to wild retention. That ought to be SOME benefit to you. We know you won't have to compete with Plunker or Bruce now.

Jacob,

The comparison to BC is most certainly valid. They have a good 25 year head start. Oregon has also seen more improvement than Washington has for both C&R AND hatchery fishing. Other species have also recovered after C&R regulations, and you know it. WHO is being deceptive?

Lastly, and this IS a big factor, is price at market. At some point, it isn't worth the fuel to set the nets. We need to get to that point.

I don't want to "take" from the tribes without them seeing something for their efforts. The feds and the state have to figure out how to compensate the tribes that institute conservation measures. Sooner or later, those resources will be of little value to them. Those tribes that get ahead of the game will be the smart ones. When we have offshore net pen steelhead selling for .50 a pound, it will spell doom for gillnets.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: AuntyM]
      #99811 - 02/08/04 06:34 AM

Aunty,

.50 a pound is what every other tribe has got for wild steelhed for the last few years. The Quinaults get more because they have their own market and sell a higher quality product.


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: RICH G]
      #99812 - 02/08/04 06:46 AM

"We know you won't have to compete with Plunker or Bruce now."

You never had to compete for wild fish with me before Rich, I've never killed one. How about you? Is it your real goal to get more Anglers off the river? That certainly helps promote our sport doesn't it.


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RICH G
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #99814 - 02/08/04 07:07 AM

I never said anything BP?

I never said I wanted to get anglers off of the river.

Yep I have killed a few wild fish. My first steelhead 0n Feb 15th 1985, from the upper Bogachiel I was 9 years old. I killed two more after that the same year. Im 27 years old now and havent killed one in a very long time.

We killed three that day up on the upper Bogie. My dad asked me if I wanted to let them go and I said no. My dad had been practicing mostly CnR since the mid 70's after they started to see the quality of the fishery go down the tubes after the Boldt Decision.

He was also fishing the Hood Canal tribs before and after the Boldt Decision. He watched them colapse almost over night. He said it was kind of hard for them to not exterminate the entire run when it started out fragile even before the start of the netting. The netts were in 7 days a week sometimes completely plugging off the river mouths. It didnt take long.


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: RICH G]
      #99817 - 02/08/04 07:27 AM

Regarding the issue of C&R on B.C. rivers. I can’t quote complete statistics, but I can tell you about the Gold River. Back in the day when legendary guides like George Riley and eight or ten others were guiding on the Gold and killing an average of four fish per guide, per day the runs went in the tank. George loves to tell about a guides meeting where they were bemoaning the fact the fishing was getting so poor. He said it was light a light bulb going off in his head when he began doing the math on how many fish the quides were killing. He s estimated eight guide per day with two clients each were killing 32 fish per day, all wild fish as there are no hatchery supplements on the Gold. He then estimated that they fished an average of 100 days per year. Wow 3,200 dead wild fish.

When the Gold went C&R the pressure dropped dramatically. But as the fish came back, so did the anglers. By the mid 90's there was considerably more angling pressure than in the late 80's. The reason - C&R brought back the fish.

I realize that every river is different. netting, dams, urban creep, clear cuts, dairy farms, ect all have an impact. But I know that C&R can help bring back the fish. I also know that a dead steelhead never spawns.


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: RICH G]
      #99818 - 02/08/04 07:34 AM

Rich do you think your stand on mandatory statewide C&R helps to promote our sport, encourge anglers to fish and is in our best interest as sport fisherman or do you believe that it will motivate more Anglers to quit fishing? Do you believe that handing over our harvest allocation to the tribes, is in our best interest?

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #99822 - 02/08/04 08:02 AM

"But I know that C&R can help bring back the fish. "

Many rivers in this state are and continue to be managed with C&R regulations. Can you give me an example of a river in this state that is currently on the rebound due to C&R regulations?


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #99825 - 02/08/04 08:16 AM

Quote:

BP said:
mandatory statewide C&R helps to promote our sport, encourge anglers to fish and is in our best interest as sport fisherman




Is it in the best interest of sport fishing? Emphatically YES. It is in the best interest of sport fishing (and the fish) this year, two years from now and 100 years from now. These fish are declining and harvest needs to stop. Every fish released is one more fish that has a chance to spawn. It may take a few years for the catch and kill mentallity to wear off for some people, but when it does we will be wondering why we killed them in the first place. Looking back at fish pictures do you remember how each one was cooked or do you remember the day of fishing?? I remember they all tasted like fish.. On the other hand, I can tell you what the weather was like, who I was fishing with, how the fish fought, etc etc etc.

Quote:

or do you believe that it will motivate more Anglers to quit fishing?




Any angler that quits fishing because he cant kill a fish is selfish and greedy. He is probably not a good steward of the resource if all he thinks about is killing what he catches. When I fish it is about being outdoors with family and friends enjoying mother nature and what she has to offer.

Quote:

Do you believe that handing over our harvest allocation to the tribes, is in our best interest?




Lets just get this clear... We have not handed anything over to the tribe and nothing you say will convince me otherwise. If, in fact, the WDFW gives the tribe a larger harvest because of this, they will be faced with the wrath of a few thousand steelheaders. (including AuntyM... I wouldn't want to mess with her if I was them )



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BP
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Mad_Catter]
      #99829 - 02/08/04 08:42 AM

If sport fishing harvest is so much of a problem as you say, then you should quit fishing for them. Deny it all you want C&R fishing kills fish. Now the only fisherman that will be killing fish are C&R anglers and fisherman using nets. In a way I am kind of happy about this ruling, it will most certainly prove you wrong. Once again I ask you to give me an example of a river in this state that is currently managed with C&R regulations that is on the rebound?

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #99830 - 02/08/04 08:51 AM

I will show you rivers that CnR has helped if you show me one river it has hurt...

Better get out the crystal ball for this one!

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Mad_Catter]
      #99831 - 02/08/04 08:58 AM

LOL ~ nice. You can't come up with one river that is currently on the rebound due to sport fishing C&R regulations.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Mad_Catter]
      #99832 - 02/08/04 09:03 AM

BP,
Just because many of our rivers are CnR dosent mean they are being managed for CnR. Salmon and steelhead in this state are managed for harvest, CnR for sport fishers in this state has been a tool to assist runs to recover so harvest can begin agian or allow another group to maintain thier harvest.

CnR has never been used as a primary management for any system in this state. The primary goal has never been to ensure quality CnR fisheries. The primary goal has always been harvest, CnR has only been used as a tool to ensure or recover harvest opportunity.

What CnR does as a management priority is start the change for many things. If CnR is the priority then our steelhead cannot be managed for harvest. If we do not manage for harvest MSY/MSH is obsolete and useless for our goal.

Currently both tribal and sport fisheries are managed for harvest. Tribil fisheries will no doubt continue to be managed for harvest but with sport fishers having a different goal for thier allocation their portion cannot be managed for harvest. With both allocations being managed the same way theory says Forgone Ppportunity can come in to play. If management is changed on one end and the goal is not harvest but maximum CnR opportunity how can the other group take away their opportunity to utilize their allocation the way they have chosen. The decision that ste up allocation in the first place says each group has the right at 50% and that is its intention. It didnt figure for one group changing its mind on how it wants to utilize its 50%. Could be a way to re-open the boldt decision. Maybe so it can evolve, not saying re-open to take away from another group but it needs to be cleared up.

Edited by RICH G (02/08/04 09:04 AM)


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #99833 - 02/08/04 09:05 AM

I guess you didn't read my post very well... show me a river it has hurt and I'll show you some its helped.



Dont forget that harvest is not the only factor that is contributing to the decline of native runs. But it is one factor that we can control.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Mad_Catter]
      #99834 - 02/08/04 09:29 AM

LOL again... I never said C&R hurts, however it still kills fish, not fishing at all doesn't hurt either and that approach doesn't kill fish. Are you willing to quit killing wild steelhead? What I am saying is that I'm not convinced that this ruling will HELP the recovery our wild fish stocks. I simply see no evendence of that, if I were convinced that it would, I would most certianly be all for it.

Rich, thank you for your respectful response's, we are more in agreement that you may think. I just don't believe that what you predict will actually happen, if it does I will be one happy camper. However I also believe that the goals of some and maybe even yourself is to put an end to sport fishing harvest for all species of wild fish forever regardless of how healthy our fish stocks are. I do not share that feeling or idea.


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #99835 - 02/08/04 09:54 AM

BP,
that is not my intention at all.

If we would have had 5 wild steelhead harvest max a year, 30 years ago and the Boldt Decision would have never passed, and we hadnt degraded the habitat so badly there would not even be an issue with the continued conservative harvest of wild salmon and steelhead. I am sure I would even be killing a couple wild steelhead a year when I felt the need.

Problem is all of these factors do exist as well as others and have caused the wild steelhead populations to evolve into what they have. And with the way things are I would not even considder harvesting wild steelhead and have stopped harvesting wild salmon.


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #99838 - 02/08/04 09:57 AM

Quote:

BP said:
What I am saying is that I'm not convinced that this ruling will HELP the recovery our wild fish stocks. I simply see no evendence of that, if I were convinced that it would, I would most certianly be all for it.




Just out of curiosity, What evidence will it take for you to be convinced that it will help?


On a side note:
According to the WDFW steelhead reports, almost 7000 wild fish were harvested. Given the same numbers of fish caught post CnR and a mortality of 10%, you now have 6300 more fish making it to the spawning beds. That is good for the fish!

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: RICH G]
      #99839 - 02/08/04 09:57 AM

If all of our wild fish stocks made a full rebound and the fish were plentiful and could support a sport fishing harvest, would you suport a sport fishing harvest?

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BP
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #99840 - 02/08/04 10:02 AM

"Just out of curiosity, What evidence will it take for you to be convinced that it will help?"

A current example of a river in this state where it has been proven to work would do.

Edited by BP (02/08/04 10:09 AM)


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #99842 - 02/08/04 10:06 AM

This must be one of those loaded questions?

Yeah I would probably support a harvest.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #99843 - 02/08/04 10:07 AM

Yes I would suport a very conservative very limited harvest if runs where back and all contributing factors were stable and I could be conviced.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: RICH G]
      #99848 - 02/08/04 10:58 AM

So you maintain the there are not healthy stocks of steelhead in this state that can support a limited sport fishing harvest?

I'm also still waiting for a response to this:

"Just out of curiosity, What evidence will it take for you to be convinced that it will help?"

A current example of a river in this state where it has been proven to work would do.


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #99849 - 02/08/04 11:00 AM

I don't see this as a good thing. Indians will just use this as an excuse to increase harvest. They are immune from any kind of pressure. As long as consumers buy wild steelhead to eat, the indians hold all the cards! The only answer is to convince the soccer moms that buying and eating any wild salmon or steelhead is politically incorrect. The recent furor over contaminated farm salmon will only increase consumption of wild steelhead/salmon.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: RICH G]
      #99850 - 02/08/04 11:05 AM

Here is a perspective from an outsider. In Minnesota we went to catch and release on all native fish, in about 2004. Before that it was one fish over 30 inches, which is equivilent to a 20 pound fish on the west coast. The results are the fishing has generally decreased since the start of the one fish over 30 inches regulation passed in about 1990. The reason fishing has decreased is the real fisheries problems were never fixed. C&R is not your savior, but a last resort. Do not get me wrong if an area has hatchery fish there is no reason or excuss to keep wild fish, but releasing your wild fish will not save your fish. You must now fight to fix the real problems. We are in Minnesota and it took the virtual collapse of the knife river fishery before the DNR would even start to listen. Good luck it is not an ease battle and I do not know if it is even a fight sport fisherman can win, but we plan to fight to the death over here. Hope you do the same.

Northshore


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BARCHASER]
      #99851 - 02/08/04 11:08 AM

I know where this is going BP.

Not that I dont have a response but Im not going to get into it because my reasons are opinion based on opservations and conversations through my experience but I have no physiical evidence.

Lets just say I dont believe anything or any of the numbers for that matter for are one truely so called "healthy system".


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: RICH G]
      #99853 - 02/08/04 11:18 AM

I am currently working on answering your question piper I had to send for some information on steelhead and salmon catch and release mortality. But from what I have seen it hurts every river. I.e if the limit is one nate the fisherman catches and kills one fish and goes home, but if c&r is ok then even if the mortality is as low as 20% then and he catches 10 the so called elitist has killed more then the meathead and done twice the damage too the resource!

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: northshore_steel]
      #99854 - 02/08/04 11:21 AM

Quote:

They are immune from any kind of pressure.




Only in your mind. As I stated earlier, the Quileutes removed their gillnets 2 winters ago due to an on the river protest that got news coverage. We have barely applied any pressure to affect change.

Let's get one thing straight. This fight isn't over who gets how many fish. Sport fishers will lose that battle. It's totally another matter to fight for the right of wild fish to SPAWN. Capturing the moral high ground is in our best interests if we want wild steelhead to make a serious comeback. I do. Do you?

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #99855 - 02/08/04 11:24 AM

Quote:


So you maintain the there are not healthy stocks of steelhead in this state that can support a limited sport fishing harvest?




I havn't done much research on the issue but rumor has it that the native stock on all the rivers but maybe one or two are on the decline... that is not an indication of healthy stocks.

Quote:


"Just out of curiosity, What evidence will it take for you to be convinced that it will help?"




The fact that more fish will end up on the spawning beds is enough proof for me. At the current rates of catch approximately 6300.


Quote:


A current example of a river in this state where it has been proven to work would do.




Originally posted by Salmo G on the other board... (Salmo, If you want me to remove it just let me know)

Quote:

CNR hasn’t increased any wild steelhead populations. Bzzzt! Wrong. Skagit/Sauk system was closed from 1977 thru 1980 due to depressed wild steelhead. Re-opened to CNR in 1981 while escapement numbers were still low (about 6 to 8,000). From 1981, wild steelhead increased from 6,000 to the high of 16,000 in 1986. Why the low returns during the 1990s and recent years? Mainly reduced ocean survival rates. What does CNR do for wild steelhead? Spawning escapement is higher than if keeping wild steelhead were allowed. Higher escapement is a good thing when either freshwater or marine survival conditions are poor.





Like I said before CnR is not the only solution to restoring wild fish stocks but it is one of the problems that we do have control over.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Mad_Catter]
      #99857 - 02/08/04 11:41 AM

I asked for a current example Mad Catter, your example is many many years old. Different times and factors that can't be compared to current situations. Give me a current example, after all most of our states rivers are already managed under a C&R regulation with no positive results, it shouldn't be that hard to come up with one current example. Also, don't believe for one minute that Salmo G is in favor of this blanket approach to managing our rivers.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #99859 - 02/08/04 11:47 AM

what you are getting at is the chicken and the egg thing...

How do I know that there would not be anyfish left in any of the rivers if it wern't for native release?

Take the Hump for example, It has been native release for a few years. There are still fish returning today. Was it because of native release? Not entirely but I'm sure it probably played a role in maintaining the few fish that come back.

Its the old Chicken and the egg...

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Mad_Catter]
      #99860 - 02/08/04 11:50 AM

The wild steelhead runs on the Hump are still in decline even with C&R rules in place right?

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #99861 - 02/08/04 12:01 PM

I dont know. I havn't looked at those numbers. Most likely they are declining. I guarentee It isn't due to harvest though. (Yes CnR mortality does have an impact, that is a topic for another day).

But look at it this way, at least there are numbers to decline. Once you hit zero thats it. Every fish released is one more possible fish that spawns.

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Edited by Mad_Catter (02/08/04 12:02 PM)


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: micropterus101]
      #99868 - 02/08/04 01:22 PM

Quote:

micropterus101 said:
I.e if the limit is one nate the fisherman catches and kills one fish and goes home, but if c&r is ok then even if the mortality is as low as 20% then and he catches 10 the so called elitist has killed more then the meathead and done twice the damage too the resource!




And where can I go to catch 10 natives each day?

If we are ever going to reduce indian netting, this is one step that has to be taken first. We need to wash the blood off our hands before we point a finger.
Looks like most of the commission members who voted for this are also sport anglers. So am I really to believe that they are making this move as a cop out or as a step toward eliminating fishing?

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: cupo]
      #99869 - 02/08/04 01:31 PM

"And where can I go to catch 10 natives each day?"

Good question. If you were able to CNR 10 nates each day would you?


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #99871 - 02/08/04 01:49 PM

At the very least, this issue has lit a fire under Bruce. Good to see folks get involved. Pro OR con.

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Just to stir it up a little more . . . . new [Re: AuntyM]
      #99878 - 02/08/04 02:50 PM

Couple of random thoughts, but first a few descriptions of my own fishing behavior:

a) I release all wild steelhead, but at least as much out of habit/ law (i.e., I fish CnR rivers mostly) as anything else

b) I don't believe that there should be one set of rules for steelhead and another for a species of Pacific salmon facing similar environmental conditions. Steelhead are not somehow intrinsically more valuable than salmon . . . excepting, perhaps, those rare systems with a high rate of repeat spawners.

c) I strongly believe that properly handled, at least 95% of released winter steelhead survive provided that single barbless hooks are used. I use only single barbless hooks.

d) I accept that CnR kills steelhead, probably 3%-8%. When I fly 8,000 miles to fish for steelhead I do not voluntarily quit if it's a hot bite that day. I keep fishing. Some of the fish I catch and release die. That's reality.

Now, a few observations:

1. We sport fishermen are a brotherhood that need all the members we can muster. That includes meat fishermen. It includes bait fishermen. It includes lure fishermen, Teeny nymph fishermen and even dry line, dry fly fishermen and spoon fishermen. (Everyone gets to look down on someone, right?) So watch very closely what happens to license sales (esp. in steelhead strongholds) in the next couple of years. Fishermen need political clout, and declining fishing license sales are a leading indicator of diminished clout.

Is pandering to the few reason enough to permit native retention in places where it otherwise shouldn't occur? No, but please realize that there is a negative consequence (politically and economically) to a blanket CnR policy statewide.

2. The lack of transparency of the policy making process is unsettling. While there's dancing in the streets this time around, the precedent has been set for items not on the agenda (and with no prior public commentary period) to be addressed and acted upon. This is going to bite us in the hindquarters in the future if left unchecked.

3. It makes no more sense to me to mandate blanket statewide CnR of native steelhead than to have a blanket statewide native retention rule. It's a very blunt policy instrument. We need scalpels, not axes.

4. Don't be surprised if "foregone opportunity" gets tested in the courts -- and the tribes win. I'm not a lawyer and I certainly am no judicial mind reader. (But neither are most of the people expressing an opinion on this thread, either.) When two sets of lawyers argue before another lawyer (esp. a federal judge), strange things can happen.

5. The extreme conservation groups (dominated by non-fishermen) are anti-fishing. If you're not careful, you'll find that mandatory native CnR is taken as a blanket signal that steelhead are endangered in every watershed. Therefore, the knee-jerk reaction of the non-fishing Greens is to conclude that there shouldn't be any fishing for natives.

6. Commercial netting and habit issues are far more important than non-retention of native fish. So don't let a "victory" in this relatively low impact area lull anyone to sleep. The way the mandatory release policy can be made a big win is for this precedent to be used (somehow) to diminish commercial netting of native steelhead.

7. Don't expect economic arguments alone to sway the tribes. I think some people would net even if the price was $0.25/ pound. If I were a tribal member, I probably would. Why? From a tribal member's perspective, there are two compelling reasons: (a) the tribe got screwed on the treaty and (b) one of the few perks in the treaty is the right to commercially take wild steelhead. So my mindset could well be, "We were forced off our land/ otherwise mistreated many generations ago. While not 'blaming' anyone, that's what happened. So the flip side of the same treaty that denied us property rights/ hunting rights/ whatever is a clause that allows me to net my tribe's home river for steelhead. This is one of the few perks I have as a tribal member. And I'm not inclined to voluntarily quit doing it." (No, I've not spoken with any native Americans on this issue but there are white folks (believe it or not!) in Alaska who feel exactly that way when they net native salmon out of streams and creeks under the subsistence fishery rules (and they don't even have unfair treaties to blame either).

* * * * *

I'm hoping for the best, but am wary to say the least. Good luck, Washington State!

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Re: Just to stir it up a little more . . . . new [Re: Snagly]
      #99879 - 02/08/04 02:55 PM



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Re: Just to stir it up a little more . . . . new [Re: BP]
      #99881 - 02/08/04 03:18 PM

mandatory catch and release can hurt a fishery? some say smoking makes you live longer to.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: JacobF]
      #99915 - 02/08/04 06:39 PM

I'm trying to catch up with a very long thread, so please excuse if this has already been addressed, but some of what is being said about BC is is complete horse-hockey. (I haven't read Dave's comments yet, and I know he knows more about BC fisheries than most locals)

Quote:

JacobF said:
The comparison to BC ....actually places the interests of sport fishing above commercial and tribal.




BUZZ!! Sorry, very wrong, couldn't be further from the truth. Hey, thanks for playing fishing Canadian style, please surrender your license on the way out, and don't forget to pay your 50% + income tax...

Quote:

Another thing is that their local government has for more control over tribal netting than ours does.




WHAT?!?!?!? What local gov't? Are you talking Provincial over Federal? Wrong. Are you talking municipal over provincial? Wrong. Where on earth did you dig up that idea? I don't mean to be nasty, but I grew up in BC and your info is wayyy off.
I hesitate to even comment on the control over the tribal netting. THERE IS NO CONTROL! THERE IS NO ENFORCEMENT!

Quote:

Yes, BC has much better fishing than we do in almost every fishery




You mean some. Some BC fisheries are abysmal, and most of it due to gross mismanagement and/or complete lack of enforcement over First Nations fisheries, both the legal and the illegal.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: northshore_steel]
      #99964 - 02/09/04 04:15 AM

Bp, there are 1,000 of reports showing how C&R has helped freshwater fish. Read any copy of In-Fisherman or Bass Master. You want an example in Washington state, I guess you will have to let it happen before you will see the results. Bass fishing is way more popular then your Steelhead across the country and it's built on C&R.
Why are you so hung up on killing Natives, somebody take your gill net away?

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Trouthead]
      #99981 - 02/09/04 06:20 AM

Trouthead, I can assure you that I've never used a gill net. LOL Your example to bass fishing holds no merit, there is no comparision. Your reply warrents no further input from me.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #100003 - 02/09/04 09:40 AM

Can't argue on the success of the process? The question is C&R only, not specie specific. You say the process will not help, I think your wrong due to many examples of it working but if you don't want to try it, that is your choice until the warden sees you.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Trouthead]
      #100012 - 02/09/04 10:38 AM

The idea of the ruling is great for the fish but lacks the control measures needed from the other resource users and eliminates more of our bargaining power on the way the systems are managed.

A healthy ecosystem doesn't exist from one species.. do we also release all wild salmon in those streams in good faith. If your in favor of this one the answer should be YES or your being hypocritcal.

The state needs to have a micro management system in place for each and every system including subruns and timing of them. Those little feeder creeks are important to fish survival and need the nutrients from all species to complete the ecosystem.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Marty]
      #100015 - 02/09/04 10:45 AM

It was suggested elsewhere the WDFW go after negotiating a match of our impact on wild steelhead. Sure would be nice if that happened, but no... I'm not going to hold my breath.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: AuntyM]
      #100016 - 02/09/04 10:50 AM

Marty I really like what you said. Can I quote you? With credit of course.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #100018 - 02/09/04 11:09 AM

Quote:

The state needs to have a micro management system in place for each and every system including subruns and timing of them.




Marty that would be ideal. But the money isn't there and it's never going to be there.

I also don't see how this weakens WDFW's bargaining position?

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: AuntyM]
      #100021 - 02/09/04 11:28 AM

Aunty are you aware of how the MSY is determined? This is the court mandated way our boldt fisheries are managed. Not all fisheries are under the boldt decision management.
The state doesn't control ALL fishing decisions or quotas. They are negotiated from past deals and court rulings.

Aunty have you ever read the book salmon without rivers? The section on how the fraser river sockeye runs are especially excellent reading on subruns. Our steelhead are the same... it may not be documented by the state but from my personal fishing I guarantee they exist.

WDFW position is now.. we no longer want the harvestable portion of the MSY. Because of this and the way our fishery is managed the tribes may now take those fish. They have NO obligation to let them upstream because their fisheries are at the mouth of the system. With a low impact cnr fishery our escapement needs are extremely low. Is that healthy for the systems?......NO
Studies have been done on the amount of smolts that a system can sustain. To allow more fish (smolts in those systems) the die off rate reduces the MSY for the tribes. Guess what? THEY WILL INCREASE THEIR NET DAYS to compensate for this. You don't have to believe me... I already seen it happen. Of course this doesn't apply to any system that is not under boldt ruling.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Marty]
      #100022 - 02/09/04 11:30 AM

sure bruce

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Marty]
      #100023 - 02/09/04 11:35 AM

I bet Bruce won't share information from his board that his expert member "The Kid" posted.

Marty, you may be right. It would appear though, that the tribes may NOT increase netting at all, based on what their own fisheries is telling them.

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BP
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: AuntyM]
      #100026 - 02/09/04 11:51 AM

Wrong agian Aunty!

http://www.gamefishin.com/gfboard/forum_posts.asp?TID=4870&PN=1

Sorry Marty..

And Thanks.


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: AuntyM]
      #100027 - 02/09/04 11:51 AM

Posted: February-09-2004 at 12:40pm | IP Logged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will Aunty

Gentlemen I have been in the process of gathering facts and data surrounding this action. I must say that at this point all the wailing and gnashing of teeth by those of us (me included) is because of not knowing or understanding the issue in its entirety. I would ask that you give the supporters the benefit of the doubt right now, after all what else can you, (we), do? Even with letters and emails of protest to the commission I doubt seriously if they will change their minds, especially since this is just for a 2-year period.

Here is what I have found out. An in depth survey and study was instituted on all Washington rivers with wild Steelhead returns by an independent group. This was done over a period of years and the resulting conclusions were that ALL streams were in decline with some being in deeper decline than others. The single exception was the Quillayute system. The information was analyzed by that group and the resulting computer models indicated that the complete loss, (extinction), was a possibility in some if not most rivers in the future. What choice does one have when facing this possibility? Could they have suggested omitting the ban on the Quillayute system? Most likely not as it would have placed too much pressure on the last remaining river with a wild kill allowed and it too would have faced the same future.

My inquires of how this came about expressed most of the negative comments addressed here on this board and some from other boards and I was informed that indeed most if not all were expressed from with in the study group. It was also told to me that the decision indeed was not an unanimous one but did carry a large percentage of the majority within the group.

My feelings on this then are this. I believe the data gathered. I believe it is in the best interest of Wild Steelhead to do this because I have always demanded that if you do what's good for the fish, you do what's good for the fisherman.

So with that in mind and with better understanding of the issue I go on record as accepting the ban for now.

I await the findings after two years and will do my best to monitor what happens in the meantime. I intend to also demand that all the late season February, March, April fisheries that target Wild Steelhead be terminated. In other words I will demand that after the predominance of hatchery fish have been harvested or have returned to the hatcheries that the rivers be closed to fishing. I do this because there is no way to protect, preserve and enhance that which you harasses and capture with the so called catch and release fisheries currently allowed.

This changes my position on the issue and I’ll be criticized for doing so. If I have learned anything in 65 years of life it is that once in awhile I’m wrong and that it is not a weakness to admit that and with the proper information and education on an issue I can be persuaded to change my position. When this takes place, I do not do so to please someone or group but do so because the plain facts dictate I do so. Right now this happens to be one of those times. I know it matters little to most on this board what the kid does or accepts and that’s fine, I just had to post my feelings and change of mind for the record.


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: AuntyM]
      #100029 - 02/09/04 11:57 AM

Very few tribes run there fisheries for recreational fishermen. More are realizing the draw of sportfishermen but they don't have any economical benefit to switch. If the tribes had economical benefit to change the way our resources are managed you would see a mindset change.

I can think of three that are trying to ebrace recreational fishermen and there pocket books. One on the skeena, the Makah,and the Quinaults. All of those economic are based around land acess to fish tribal lands. They also have commecial fisheries.... but its a start.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: YBNORML]
      #100030 - 02/09/04 12:00 PM

Great. NOW can we get after the nets.... PLEASE?

Marty, that's the one thing that will stop the tribes. There may be very little MSY left and the ESA will take effect. All fishermen may already be screwed and we're just to drunk (addicted) to know it. It's probably not an IF but a WHEN.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: AuntyM]
      #100033 - 02/09/04 12:24 PM

Marty,

As someone who is not born and raised here... I'd have to say, it made no sense to me that tribal members couldn't guide any place they were accustomed to fishing.

I think a moratorium on keeping nates for 2 years is only the first shock.

But then.... I never understood how commercial fishing would be allowed on inland water anyway. Every species that is commercially fished will be pushed to the brink of extinction someday.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: AuntyM]
      #100036 - 02/09/04 12:30 PM

WDFW will not be saying "we don't want our half anymore"...they'll be saying "for the good of the resource, we want our half to have a better chance of spawning and making both halves bigger".

Fish on...

Todd.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Todd R]
      #100045 - 02/09/04 01:57 PM

Hows the thumb Marty? This is my 1st time on this forum, and I'd like to offer some comments and maybe a little different perspective. everyone has their own opinion of this new regulation, and catch and release in general. I'm neither pro or con c&r, but believe that as long as you stay within the boundrys of the regs that it is and should be a matter of personal choice. I release most of the wild fish I catch, but not all. Everyone talks about how this blanket c&r reg is gonna bring back the fish, come-on! this reg only affects a very small number of rivers that have a strong run of native fish the rest of the state was allready under c&r or closure. their was no scientific reasons given for this reg change.Shame on the wdfw for telling the public at large that this proposal would not be looked at this year. Shame on TU and WSU for letting them do it that way. Do the ends really justify the means. As an avid fisherman and conservationist I,m saddened to see our different sportfishing groups stabbing each other in the back. The tribes present a united front, the commercial fishers present an united front, and the mirriad sportfishing groups fight among themselves. Untill all us fishermen can work together with a little more give and take,make decisions based on science instead of politics and passion, or personal agendas, we won't acomplish much of anything. Like I said everyone has their own opinion. United we stand divided we'll argue over the last fish.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: BP]
      #100055 - 02/09/04 03:20 PM

Aunty why does anyone assume that Foregone Opportunity would be tested in court? As I have pointed out in the past and as pointed out by Rich G it has already occurred on the Quillayute. The Quileute tribe made a legal formal request per Federal court guidelines for access to the unharvested(sport) wild winter steelhead and was legally granted those fish by the state under the Foregone Opportunity clause of Boldt. The precedent is already there. Unless there is a violation of Federal law the enviro groups or for that matter any group or even the state agencies have no legal basis under which to challenge the tribes. Relying on public sentiment to sway the tribes actions is just putting on a .

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Gooose]
      #100062 - 02/09/04 03:56 PM

Gooose,

My guess is it won't be tested in the courts.

When it comes to environmental groups, their interpretation of the ESA and federal law is different than yours or mine. If you think they can't find a basis, you're fooling yourself. Anybody can sue anybody these days if they have the money.

I'm also betting the tribes themselves are becoming concerned about continuing low returns, and it would be foolish to harvest those "foregone opportunity" fish. So much of this discussion has assumed the tribal members and their fisheries people are not smart enough to figure out we are all taking too many. I think some of them are more on the ball than many of us. We have some real nimrods at WDFW. Can you say Cindy Lefleur?

Maybe since we took the first step, the tribes won't go overboard.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: AuntyM]
      #100070 - 02/09/04 04:05 PM

Problem is that the issue is not a matter of ESA....that would require someone to petition NOAA Fisheries for a listing and for the Feds to decide to list. A lawsuit in this case could only occur if there was a violation of ESA or the Boldt decision....if there is another avenue for that to happen I'd really like to hear what that might be? It certainly does appear to many that anyone can bring suit for just about any reason but in regards to this issue those avenues just are not there. The Supreme court simply just won't recognize any other forum in which to sue.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Gooose]
      #100087 - 02/09/04 04:59 PM

Gooose,

I got a nice little wild hen out of the Dose about a month ago. Thought you would like to know that.

Anyways I think what has just happened could change everything. Forgone Opportunity is in place under the assumption that both user groups allocations are being managed for harvest, it was set up this way under the Boldt Decision. On the Quileute, sport fishing harvest showed a trend they could not harvest their allocation It only made sense under Forgone Opportunity the tribe could take those fish, they had the right didnt they, and they took advantage of it.

CnR and using it as a management priority be it for opportunity or conservation, it matters not, throws a big kink in the rope as far as what the ruleing intended. The ruleing has nothing in it about anything other than a harvest goal for each group. Each group had to have the opportunity to havest their allocation and if one group didnt the other group could.

Well now things have changed. One group decided they were not interested in harvest any more for their allocation. they were interested in CnR opportunity and conservation of their wild steelhead. Now that their goal has changed their allocation can not be management for harvest, MSH/MSY makes no sense if they wont be harvesting any fish. New management will be needed for the sport fishers allocation probally MSR. Under MSR the intenet of the Boldt Decision wouldnt have changed for the sport allocation as the group still needs to have the opportunity to take advantage of their allocation. The thing that does change is that if Forgone Opportunity is used by the tribes they take away the other groups opportunity and that goes agianst the Boldt Decision.

You see under MSR the fish have to get to the sport anglers for them to take advantage of their allocation, trends of allocation use are meaningless without harvest as far as Forgone Opportunity intent.

Its Quileute Tribe could have to and should have to go back to a quota of their allocation or risk having the Boldt Decision re-opened to elovle or be re-enterperated what Forgone Opportunity means when one group changes the management of its allocation.

I dont know but I would worry If I were them.

Its a theory but it makes sense.

Edited by RICH G (02/09/04 05:07 PM)


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: RICH G]
      #100098 - 02/09/04 05:26 PM

Rich thanks for the info....i haven't even seen one on the local rivers this year.

The problem is that the federal court only recognizes harvest. For our choice not to harvest to be recognized legally would require the Supreme court to allow the Boldt case to be revisited or reopened. As far as I know their ruling was final...I forget the legal term used....but suffice to say when they do that they usually consider the issue before them to be done with unless the petitioners can present evidence of violation of Federal law. I don't see where the state or anyone else for that matter can make a case for such a violation. So legal challenges to foregone opportunity are pretty much a lead balloon unless it can be proven that there is no surplus fish to be harvested....that would require the state to admit such and then pursue the issue before the special masters assigned to the Boldt case by the federal court system.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Gooose]
      #100103 - 02/09/04 05:42 PM

I understand what you are saying, but I dont see the logic.

We shall see what happens, I dont think the public is going to take Forgone Opportunity for an answer or allow it to happen, or continue to allow it to hapen if it begins.

This is an issue that could very well break outside the sport fishing community into the public. The tribes are not going to want to look greedy and bad even if it is their right. They have much more to loose then face. The record on wild steelhead runs are not good and it isnt going to look good for them to take fish that the other group is trying to save.


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: RICH G]
      #100106 - 02/09/04 05:59 PM

Who said the legal system used logic? Where's our local legal beagle Todd? Rich I hope as you do that this will all workout for the best of wild steelies but consider this....do you or anyone else really see the majority of this states voters who live within the I-5 urban beltway as actually rallying enmasse to the cause of wild steelhead? Sorry but I refuse to believe in utopia...just my opinion though.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Gooose]
      #100136 - 02/09/04 10:16 PM

The hoh tribe petitioned for more fish and were granted them.. Have a nice day

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Marty]
      #100145 - 02/09/04 11:33 PM

Where'd you get that info, Marty?

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Todd R]
      #100150 - 02/10/04 01:41 AM

Quote:

Todd R said:
WDFW will not be saying "we don't want our half anymore"...they'll be saying "for the good of the resource, we want our half to have a better chance of spawning and making both halves bigger".

Fish on...

Todd.




wdfw can say all they want till there blue in the face. they regulate our privilage to fish.
They cannot regulate self regulating tribes as set forth in the Boldt decision. Especially while there is still harvestable fish.

Some stuff from the boldt decision. Please understand we have got to get rid of the nets first. This regulation only covers a few rivers. It is not the big victory the purist claim it is for sportsfishermen. The rest have already been C&R yet nothing has changed except that we are loosing more privilages. This was just a victory for people that prefer to Catch & Release and want evrybody else to fish the way they do. As long as there are harvestable fish the indians will have the right to fish for them whether we partake in are privilages or not.

[*403] 32. In order for regulations not to discriminate against treaty Indians, the Department of Fisheries' harvesting plan must provide for an opportunity for treaty Indians to take, at their off-reservation usual and accustomed fishing places, a share of the harvestable fish as set forth in the Final Decision, pages 342-343.

notice it says harvestable fish, not does not distinguish between native or non native.

Regulation of off-reservation Indian treaty fishing by the United States, the State, or the Plaintiff tribes does not preempt the regulation by any of the other two. Jurisdiction of each entity to regulate is unimpaired by the exercise of another entity's regulatory jurisdiction. With respect to matters over which there may be multiple jurisdiction, the extent of exercise or non-exercise of regulatory jurisdiction by the entity having primary interest [**252] in the matter may be relevant to the appropriateness of another entity's exercise of its jurisdiction. Also the exercise of federal or tribal regulatory control may affect the finding of "necessity" which is required for the validity of any state exercise of its police power to preserve the resource .

The state cant show necessity to preserve the resource when they have already showed scientifically there are harvestable amounts of wild steelhead. Even if they could show necessity for wild stocks there is no distinction between native fish and hatchery fish in the Boldt decision!

I am not done yet I just got into the interesting parts! But its getting early in the morning and I gots to go to work later.


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: micropterus101]
      #100151 - 02/10/04 04:05 AM

Hey B.P.--- CNR worked on the NF(I think) Toutle after the eruption. Steelhead recolonized the river and were making a big comeback in a devastated watershed, that is until WDFW started planting hatchery summerruns, then the numbers of wild fish started to decline.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: micropterus101]
      #100153 - 02/10/04 04:26 AM

If for one second, anyone thinks this will benefit the sport fisherman by reducing or limiting tribal fishing, you need to pull your head out of your !#&#!. The only user group this WILL benefit is the tribes.
The state doesn't have a prayer of winning a court battle with the tribes, nor are the tribes going to stop netting because they fill sorry for the fish or the white man. Were have you people been the last 20 plus years.
For all you that pushed this issue, Do you think twice about killing a salmon (native) while of the coast? I think not. A wild fish is a wild fish, so don't preach one thing and do another.
I personally release "most" native steelhead I catch, but if I want one for dinner and its leagle to do so then I don't think twice about bonking one on the head. It was nice to have a choice.
Just my thoughts on the matter, Time to go pull the knife's out of my back.


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: plugger]
      #100160 - 02/10/04 05:31 AM

Quote:

Anticipated low steelhead return leads
to early closure of Green River fisheries

OLYMPIA - State and tribal fisheries managers are closing the Green River to all fishing because of anticipated low returns of both hatchery and wild steelhead.

The river will close to all sport fishing beginning Feb. 16.

Although projected to return at higher levels than last year, this year's wild winter steelhead run is potentially the fifth in a row to come in below the co-managers' escapement goal of 2,000 fish.

"State and tribal fisheries managers have reviewed the steelhead run size data, and we agree that the wild steelhead stock on the Green River needs additional protection," said Phil Anderson, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife special assistant to the director.

The lower Duwamish/Green River was scheduled to close to sport fishing for steelhead Feb. 29, while the middle and upper stretches of the river were scheduled to close March 15. Commercial tribal fisheries were closed on Dec. 22, 2003, more than a month earlier than scheduled, after the in-season update for the hatchery run showed a very low return.





Nope. Don't see any cooperation there! WDFW kept it open a month and a half longer than they probably should have. You don't supposed WDFW and all of us have something to do with this problem.



Criticism of tribes BEFORE they have actually done anything. Typical, and not very conducive to change.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Marty]
      #100177 - 02/10/04 07:10 AM

Quote:

Marty said:
The hoh tribe petitioned for more fish and were granted them.. Have a nice day




Marty when did this happen? Please post or email me any info about this.


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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: AuntyM]
      #100179 - 02/10/04 07:14 AM

Aunty, It's easy to criticize others and not come up with a viable solution. And as far as Will Roehl saying that WDFW was coming up with a Management plan for steelhead, I don't think the wild fish can wait. If it's anything like waiting for their hatchery plan, wild fish will really suffer.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Jerryberry]
      #100180 - 02/10/04 07:25 AM

I agree with you there Bruce.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: AuntyM]
      #100202 - 02/10/04 09:54 AM

Bruce they just want more cause it's blown most of the time.Not alot of pressure.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: YBNORML]
      #100208 - 02/10/04 10:48 AM

The Hoh tribe has nothing to do with this regulation or this thread.

What it looks like they're trying to do (the details are sketchy for me at this point, I'm trying to find out what's up), is net 4-5 days a week on the Hoh River. The run projection there this year anticipates that the Hoh River will again not meet escapement goals.

And they want to fish for them...

Fish on...

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Todd R]
      #100211 - 02/10/04 10:53 AM

Why doesn't it? Exercising foregone opp at its best and the state unwilling to fight them because of fear of losing

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Todd R]
      #100212 - 02/10/04 10:53 AM

Also...

The Hoh is open for sporties to catch and kill wild steelhead, too, and the river is expected to be underescaped, as noted above. There are sportfishermen over there catching and bonking those fish right now...next year if the Hoh's try this we'll have a little more credibility to call BS on it.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Todd R]
      #100213 - 02/10/04 10:54 AM

"And they want to fish for them..."

I think you mean the will fish for them...


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micropterus101
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: AuntyM]
      #100214 - 02/10/04 10:57 AM

Quote:

AuntyM said:
Quote:

Anticipated low steelhead return leads
to early closure of Green River fisheries

OLYMPIA - State and tribal fisheries managers are closing the Green River to all fishing because of anticipated low returns of both hatchery and wild steelhead.

The river will close to all sport fishing beginning Feb. 16.

Although projected to return at higher levels than last year, this year's wild winter steelhead run is potentially the fifth in a row to come in below the co-managers' escapement goal of 2,000 fish.

"State and tribal fisheries managers have reviewed the steelhead run size data, and we agree that the wild steelhead stock on the Green River needs additional protection," said Phil Anderson, Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife special assistant to the director.

The lower Duwamish/Green River was scheduled to close to sport fishing for steelhead Feb. 29, while the middle and upper stretches of the river were scheduled to close March 15. Commercial tribal fisheries were closed on Dec. 22, 2003, more than a month earlier than scheduled, after the in-season update for the hatchery run showed a very low return.





Nope. Don't see any cooperation there! WDFW kept it open a month and a half longer than they probably should have. You don't supposed WDFW and all of us have something to do with this problem.



Criticism of tribes BEFORE they have actually done anything. Typical, and not very conducive to change.




Aunty the indians could not win there in the green because it was scientifically shown the there was not going to be any harvestable fish.The tribe had to concede to the states decision.

The more I read the Boldt decision The more I realize we as sports fishermen are just plain lucky to have the oportunitty to fishing privilages in this state and we should hold on to every privilage.

If there are harvestable fish (fish returning above escapment minimum numbers to support run) the state cannont deny petitions by the tribes for take above 50% if we give up part of the qouta .

50% is a number to make sure the indians get a fair amount of fish. there is nothing that says they cant take more. If the sportsfishers and commercials dont get all of there 50% it is no where to be read in the boldt decision that the indians cant take the extra for themselves as long as there are harvestable fish.

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micropterus101
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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: Marty]
      #100215 - 02/10/04 11:01 AM

Quote:

Marty said:
Why doesn't it? Exercising foregone opp at its best and the state unwilling to fight them because of fear of losing




The state is not afraid of losing, They know they will lose as long as there are harvestable fish.

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Re: Hot off the Press-Todays Commission Report new [Re: micropterus101]
      #100218 - 02/10/04 11:09 AM

I hope its getting clearer that the state doesnt have a leg to stand on. Especially when they cant even count on the sportfishermen to keep there privilages, at least the state could fight for our 50% and slow the tribes down.The state is losing there bargaining power along with are privilages. I know its getting more complicated now but try to think really hard and go read the boldt decision thoroughly!

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micropterus101
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possible solution? new [Re: micropterus101]
      #100622 - 02/13/04 10:49 PM

Ok I have an Idea that might change your perspective on the law change. With a very good suggestion I think everybody here could agree with.


Lets say there are only four rivers that this new reg effects. Those four rivers have been putting out enough fish to have more fish return then what was needed to support the run, those are harvestable fish. Now the sportfishermen have been denied the privilage to those harvestable fish. Therfore the tribes can petition the state for those fish and the state cannot deny that petition because it is a fact that those rivers have harvestable wild steelhead. Those harvestable wild steelhead now become part of the tribes qouta. It doesnt matter how they are caught, the fact that they are dead is what matters. This is why I am so against this law that takes the privilage of non tribal members to keep harvestable wild steelhead away. We have gained absolutely nothing. We have done absolutely nothing to save wild steelhead with this law. Its a big FARCE.

The biggest thing we can do to save wild steelhead right now is to update the scientific data to reflect a higher number of returning fish is needed to support the runs. This will in effect lower statistically the numbers of harvestable fish. The tribes cannot petition the state successfully for fish needed to meet escapement. This would cause a statewide mandatory catch and release season I would agree with.

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Re: possible solution? new [Re: micropterus101]
      #100624 - 02/14/04 12:26 AM


Do you really think the tribes would agree to raise the escapement goals?

The state doesn't arbitrarily set the goals and dictate them to the tribes. The tribes have an equal say in this decision.

The management is accomplished "in common with" the tribes.

The tribes recently pressured the state into lowering the escapement goal for Skagit steelhead from 10,300 to 6,000 to provide larger harvestable numbers.

--------------------
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Re: possible solution? new [Re: Plunker]
      #100635 - 02/14/04 05:21 AM

I agree totally with what Plunker just stated above. Personally, I would like to see this state turn the entire fisheries program over to the Tribes to manage. As it is run now, we have to beg, borrow or steal $120,000. just to get a lake Washington season for sport sockeye fishing this year? We always listen to all of these funding problems. Come on!!
If we let the Tribes manage our fisheries it wouldn't be that way. When funding was requested for a fish enhancement program, I think the state would respond immediately with whatever was requested. I don't see this State even attempting to keep the sport fishing community funded as it is managed currently. Bill


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