CHINOOK73
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http://www.komonews.com/news/26254529.html
Tragedy, I feel for all involved. Takes me back to one of the "Ten Commandments" of hunter safety, Know your target and what is beyond!
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B.R.D. Victim
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Dogfish
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I am sorry this happened.
I also need to apologize for comments made about an effort being led by Representative Brian Blake. He is working to protect my boy's rights to continue hunting, and I overreacted based on a poorly written article. Brian took the time to call me today and I appreciate that.
My apologies.
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"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"
Be like Big Stick!
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Mojo
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Actually I have no probelm regulating the age that kids get to hunt without supervision. I feel anyone under 14 (or even 16 for that matter) should have an adult hunting with them. I too was a 14 year old that passed hunters ed and loved to go in the field, but I was not allowed to hunt on my own till I was 16. I was shot in 1983 by a 13 year old that was hunting by himself. If he had some supervision it probably would have never happened.
I also firmly believe that any kid that has sufficient adult supervision should be allowed to hunt.
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Tight Lines,
Mojo
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Dogfish
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From what I've read about his bill, there is no provision for supervised hunting. No hunting whatsoever under a certain age. If it is changed to allow supervised hunting, I am fine with that, but that is not what I have read.
We are on the same page there, and my boys are always with me when they are hunting, plus only one of them hunts at any given time. Two boys, one gun.
I'm sorry you were shot. Been "scoped" a few times, which is why I switched to muzzleloader for deer. Any hunting accident is preventable, and one that causes death or serious injury is a tragedy indeed.
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"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"
Be like Big Stick!
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cupo
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If they want to set a reasonable minimum age to hunt WITHOUT AN ADULT then I have no problem with that. If they want a minimum age just to get a license, then I have a problem.
The boy involved in the Sauk Mtn incident was 14. If they're gonna try and make it so 14yo's can't even get a license, that's just stupid. Now, making it so that a 14yo can't hunt without an adult wouldn't be unreasonable.
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This can't be healthy. All this fishing is really messing with my head.
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Mojo
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The article states...
"But in the wake of last weekend's fatal shooting of a hiker by a 14-year-old boy in Skagit Co unty, the Democratic gun advocate from Aberdeen says he plans to introduce legislation restricting the age of hunters who go hunting without adult supervision."
And later it also states...
"I was young once and at 9 years old, I thought I should be able to hunt by myself, but I was wrong. My father was a gun safety instructor. And he was adamant that as much as I wanted to deer hunt at 9, 10 and 11, I was not going to carry a rifle and hunt with him until I was 12. …
"And then even at 12, in hindsight, just having a 12-year-old take off on their bikes deer hunting is a little soon."
I read that as regulating unsupervised hunting. Maybe I missed something. I'm thinking that article needs clarification...
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Tight Lines,
Mojo
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BorntoFish
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 I beleive that youngsters at a reasonable age should be allowed to hunt with adult supervision. I believe that would eliminate some potential bad judgement. Then again, it would be interesting to know the figures on adult versus youth caused hunting accidents. No doubt more adult caused, and to some degree because they outnumber young hunters in the field....but none the less, bad judgement isn't limited to the youngsters.
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Gooose
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Andy do you remember your original post about some people Ass-uming? Sorry but bullchit...your lads would have the same experiences if this legislation is passed....hunting under your immediate and direct supervision until they are of an age and experience to hunt by themselves.
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"Seen worse".....
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Dogfish
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Please see my apology on my first post on this subject. I appreciate Brian taking teh time to call me this morning.
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"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"
Be like Big Stick!
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Mojo
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Good deal. Sounds like this is actually a decent deal for all involved. glad he called you and explained things. I've never heard of a politician that was as resposive to the constituants. Let's keep him in office shall we? 
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Tight Lines,
Mojo
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Gooose
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He called me first thing this morning at home and my cell looking for Andy's phone #. Any legislation he introduces will be heading off the the demands by the urban legislators to take away the hunting rights of your children. There's a few people on this board who are well aware that his office door is always open to discuss fishing and hunting. Hoping he runs for Gov in about 8 years.......after that we'll look at running him for President. 
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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Mojo
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President Blake has a ring to it... But I was thinking you not him... 
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Tight Lines,
Mojo
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Quillback
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Now it's national news - hmmm I wonder who caused the family disagreement.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26171830/
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I'd rather be fishing
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Lead_Bouncer
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According to recent radio news, skagit county is considering charges. Kid could spend up to a year in Juvie.
stupid DA
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join, volunteer, win
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cupo
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He's being charged with 1st degree manslaughter and can do up to 9 months in juvie.
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This can't be healthy. All this fishing is really messing with my head.
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Mojo
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No Leadbouncer, stupid kid. He killed someone. No excuse, he should be held accountable for his actions.
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Tight Lines,
Mojo
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Tony1831
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Mojo is sounding as if he's running for office too.
Holding a youth responsible for his actions, how barbaric! Next they will have to get jobs, ARGH! the attrocities...
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Luke_the_Drifter
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What would "hunting with" someone be defined as? All of us hunters know that you generally split up to hunt different areas when on foot. Or in the brushy westside you split up to run animals to one another that you otherwise wouldn't see to get a shot at hunting by yourself. Would that mean the young hunter must remain in sight of the adult? Within "grabbing distance" perhaps? Would the young hunter be required to ask permission to shoot from his guardian?
I really don't think a law would have made any difference in this situation. How in the hell do you mistake a blonde, light complected woman for a goddamn black bear?
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"Curiosity is natural to the soul of man and interesting objects have a powerful influence on our affections."---Daniel Boone
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BorntoFish
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Quote:
Luke_the_Drifter said:
How in the hell do you mistake a blonde, light complected woman for a goddamn black bear?
Must have figured her for a "blonde" color phase bruin....
And if I recall correctly from one of the reports, she was apparently wearing bright clothes, or something to that effect, so she obviously was an escaped circus bear. 
I'm not trying to dismiss or make light of the thoughtless tragedy that the victim's friends and family suffer in this loss. Just underscoring Mojo's statement about how stupid this act was.
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Dogfish
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It was drizzling at the time, so visibility was somewhat limited. She was putting away her bright blue coat. No mention was made to her other garments. Easy to armchair quarter back it. The media has not provided all of the facts, only portions of it. Were her garments under the blue jacket black or brown? Don't know, but the media doesn't provide that data.
Ever not hit exactly where you intended to shoot? I have, in the past, but now I usually hit within an inch of my intended impact zone. In my early years hunting, I have been as far as 12 inches off on a moving animal. 26 big game animals later I am usually spot on, moving or not. I don't think the teenager was trying for a head shot at 120 yards with limited visability.
I made Hunter pass up a 32 yard shot on a 350+ bear this year because it wasn't right. Log was in the way for a clean shot at vitals. Hunter was sitting in a chair, rifle resting on a bipod. I wish I had been there coaching this boy.
It still pisses me off that one accident in 25 years (non-hunting victim) causes a rewrite of any law. Consider how many hikers and mountain climbers have died in the past two years in Washington to the number of hunters. 10 to 1, or better. You don't see people clammoring for any laws regarding hikers and mountain climbers be changed. Ass hattery at its finest. How many teens die each year due to drunk driving in this state? I have contempt for most politicians, but there are a few good ones, like Brian. (Sh!t, come to think of it, I'm a politician)
If I had my way, people who lived in cities with more than 15,000 would need a permit to leave the city.
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"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"
Be like Big Stick!
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Luke_the_Drifter
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CRACKER!!!
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Quote:
Dogfish said:
If I had my way, people who lived in cities with more than 15,000 would need a permit to leave the city.
That's a great quote. The stupidity of city folk never ceases to amaze me. They see something on TV and think, "I can do that!" They learn nothing of what they need to know, buy up a truckload of expensive gear, head out into the woods and think they are the reincarnation of Daniel Boone.
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"Curiosity is natural to the soul of man and interesting objects have a powerful influence on our affections."---Daniel Boone
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fishhog
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It boggles my mind how one accident gets our elected idiots on the band wagon to rewrite laws and giving them a name like "Tracy's Law" or something to that effect.
Charging the kid for manslaughter is ludicris. It's an accident nothing more. It one of those sad part of life deals. Sending the kid to juvie will not bring her back!!!
I for one would not let my son or daughter hunt alone at 14, but that's just me.
Would I feel differently if it had happened to my family member? I can honestly say NO!!!
In my mnd, the kid has to live with it the rest of his life and that to me is punishment enough in itself.
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Stay thirsty my friends
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chinook
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why are people hiking in a hunting area during hunting season? no orange vest?
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cupo
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A better question would be, why were people hunting on one of the most popular hiking trails in the county? I've hunted the lower parts of Sauk Mtn and the back side of Sauk Mtn, but I'd never hunt the upper trail just because it's so popular with hikers.
Also, don't be so sure that she wasn't wearing some orange.
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This can't be healthy. All this fishing is really messing with my head.
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Trouthead
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Nookie, the woods are open to the public, not hunters only. The Tribes hunt all year,(legal or not, it still happens) should we close the woods? Do all hikers know it's hunting season? Do all hunters know that it's still hiking season?The situation is that the kid took a shot when he was not sure of the target. Bad judgement for sure.
Why population of 15,000 Andy? Why not 500? I've seen quality hunters from L.A. (large population) and some stupid logger type hunters from Carbonado (tiny population). The place they live doesn’t create the stupidity.
If you want to see gun fights, go into a mushroom picking area in the mountains above Green Water. Scary.
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Trouthead
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Mojo
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Bottom line, the kid pulled the trigger and the woman is dead. If I accidentally fired a round in my living room while cleaning an "unloaded" gun, and the bullet killed my neighbor, I would be tried for manslaughter. I would be guilty. Accidents are preventable. If visibility was bad du to drizzle and fog, he should not have taken the shot. If he did not have a clear back drop he should not have taken the shot. You NEVER shoot at sky-lined animals. If you miss, or shoot through you have no idea where the bullet will fall. You never shoot at animals when you can't see what is behind them. Sorry, but I'm starting to believe there are a lot more irresponsible hunters out there than I once beleived. Every year I hear more and more about stories like this. It scares the hell out of me.
As for the comment on closing hunting areas to the non-hunting public , everywhere in Idaho is a hunting area. Most of it is public land (either state, U.S. Forest Service, or BLM). I've seen mountain bikers and hikers in many places while hunting. You can't close all public lands to the public. Any attempt would surely piss off the majority of the population that does not hunt, and add fire to the anti's that are working to do away with our right ot hunt.
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Dogfish
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I am with Cupo on his choice of hunting areas. Bad move number one, followed up by a series of choices that lead up to the event.
I picked 15,000 so Aberdeen would be included. Every October, after saying hi to someone the first question here is, "Did you get your deer yet?" It was also a bit tongue in cheek, but not all the way. McCleary has 1,555 people in it.
Remember that software guy from SanFran who tried to drive over the mountains in Oregon to the coast, got stuck in snow, ran his engine out of gas keeping warm when there was a forest full of dead fall to make fires from, then disabled his vehicle even more by burning the tires for warmth? At least he saved the environment by not harming a precious tree. Then, instead of hiking out on the road, he sets off cross country and dies of exposure about the time his family was rescued. People in the cities think nature is a Disney flick, and do not prepare for the bad stuff that can and will happen. Just my opinion.
There are so many REI Rangers out there who buy cool crap at REI or Cabelas and think they are ready to go. They also don't check into whether or not it is hunting season before they venture out. In small towns, more folks than not know when each season is. I would say 90% of my clients, affluent business owners, hunt and fish. The same could be said for most small towns, but certainly not Seattle, Olympia, Tacoma, Everett, Lacey, and so on. I know it is hunting season every day when I head to Seattle, so I carry my .40 S&W HK USP with me to deter the wildlife. It all boils down to personal responsibility for your personal safety, but nobody wants to own up to that.
I don't excuse any action on part of the kids, but the lather that some of these folks are working themselves up into is ridiculous.
Type in "hunter shoots hiker" in most search engines and you'll find one instance in 2008, another in 2005, and another in 2002. Most articles will be on this young boy.
For fun, type in "climber dies", "killed by falling rock" or "hiker dies" and you will see hundreds of different stories. A number of these guys are killed by falling rocks dislodged by other hikers, but there is no push to outlaw falling or dislodged rocks (saracsticly put).
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"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"
Be like Big Stick!
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Mojo
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Andy you make sense. I'll tell you that Hunter kills Hunter stories are a dime a dozen. They carry as much weight (or more) in my mind as Hiker killed by hunter stories. The problem I have is the mentality that hunting accidents just happen, and it is a risk you take. I believe any hunting accident is preventable, and anyone that is responsible for a hunting accident should be tried. Negligence should be prosecuted.
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Tight Lines,
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Dogfish
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Mojo, you and I agree on the prosecution. Somebody died and there needs to be an investigation and a display of all of the facts, which is something that has not occurred yet in the media. They only release bits and pieces, and I had to piece together my understanding of the event through reading many different news reports.
My argument is that we need for the investigation to be done prior to coming up with some knee jerk reaction bill that takes away the rights of individuals who do not have a voice. It is always a take away. Seldom do we ever get rights back once they are gone.
If he ends up being acquitted or pleads to a lesser charge, then at least he went through the process and the system.
There have been 9 hunter on hunter deaths in Washington in the past 10 years, so compared to the number of deaths related to other outdoor activities, it is relatively safe. The sad part is that all of these deaths were preventable, even the subject at hand.
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"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"
Be like Big Stick!
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Trouthead
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I was taught how to hunt by my Dad who seemed to learn it from the same school as Andy. I also attended Hunters Safty classes. I didn't carry a gun for years until Dad thought I was ready. Even then I didn't get to go by myself for several more years. Proper teaching from responsible parents will prevent most accidents. I don't see how another law is going to do any good.
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Trouthead
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Quillback
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It does amaze me how quickly it moved into the legislative phase, before any investigation.
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I'd rather be fishing
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winterchrome
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Quote:
Dogfish said: REI Ranger
Thats funny.
As for the speed of legislation moving, I've seen some horrible knee jerk bills and some decent ones as well. You all remember the Bestiality legislation from a few years ago? There were some news stories that said it was simply knee jerk, we don't need another law, but then what do you know, two cases within the year are tried under the new law. All in Pierce County, but that's another story.
The news surrounding this shooting story has been confusing. At first you get the impression it is a blanket restriction, then it is restriction with adults involved. My question is if a new law is created can a kid not go shoot bullfrogs or crows or rabbits etc...alone? In the open space of Eastern Washington, I was shooting small game, on my own, when I was 9 as many of you likely did as well. Me and my .22 were pals. I hope whatever is drafted takes into account the whole of Washington, and not just Western Washington. Also seeing Senator Jeannie Kohl Wells on the Senate side involved makes my suspicion level rise exponentially. She would just as soon remove the gun from your hands, your families hands, and basically every person in this state... Downtown Seattle Dem takes issue...
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It has always been my private conviction that any man who pits his intelligence against a fish and loses has it coming. ~John Steinbeck
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Gooose
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The reason Representative Blake is moving so fast to propose legislation is to preempt any legislation by the anti-gun/anti-hunting politicians. It let's people like that know that they are not going to use this single sad incident to further their political agendas. It delivers a clear message that their legislation is dead on arrival. To not propose legislation simply making the law what it was for decades....young hunters will be required to be accompanied by an adult while hunting.... would let their agenda gain momentum. To believe that not doing so now is a good idea is naive. I grew up as a hunter under that law and had no issues with it....it was a reasonable law back then and I believe it is a reasonable law to reinstate. Winterchrome if you were doing that before the age 16 back in the early 1990's or before it was a violation of the states hunting laws.
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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BobK
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As a 74 year old observer, I have seen a lot in my lifetime.
You can't prove to me that "age", "safety", "wisdom", "judgement" and "responsibility" and "common sense" are somehow interrelated. I have known very young kids who I would trust to handle firearms by themselves safely, and yet known a lot adults of ALL ages that I wouldn't trust even close to a firearm!!
You can't legislate "responsibility" any more than you can legislate "morality"!! Even though the politicians seem to think so!
BobK
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Gooose
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Bob you are very much correct. But what politicians should do is legislate to keep absolute stupidity from being legally imposed.....that's the role of a politician who looks out for the "people." The coming absolute stupidity legislation being formulated by certain urban beltway legislators who would make it illegal for anyone under the age of 16 to ever handle a firearm. That is what is happening.
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 7
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Mojo
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I think the preemptive strike is probably best (as in this case) if stupidity is lurking. The problem he'll face is keeping the ignorant politicians he serves with from bastardizing his legislation to fit their agenda. Infortunatley that is a common practice these days...
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farmer
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fingerling
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First off how could both boys make a mistake the 16 year old also comfirmed it was a bear makes me wonder if she walked into the line of fire or if a bear was between her and the shooter .Also I think the state is at fault, Sauk is a very popular trail it should be posted and hikers need to be aware that hunting season is open . As for the blue coat I have a tough time telling the difference between blue and black ( I am a little color blind ) and what was she wearing under the coat ? I think before anyone jumps to any conclusions several facts need to be cleared up .Why did both boys comfirm it was a bear, did anyone check for bear tracks between the shooter and victim or passed the victim , What was she wearing , how far away was her friend
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winterchrome
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I agree a preemptive strike is best...however, just because it was in first and makes sense, doesn't mean the other side/house won't just kill it and run the Seattle libs bill.
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It has always been my private conviction that any man who pits his intelligence against a fish and loses has it coming. ~John Steinbeck
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Dogfish
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She had just put her blue coat away in her pack when she was shot. (per one of the many incomplete news reports) No mention has been made at this point as to the color of her clothes that were under the jacket.
Also, there has not been a clear description of the terrain and brush. We know it was drizzling (per another incomplete news report), and that the distance was 120 yards. Beyond that, we know very little.
I would really like to see a report from WDFW or SCSO that details the events that lead up to the shooting, as well as a photo from the shooters vantage point, a description of the vegetation near the shooter and the victim, a complete description of what exactly she was wearing (not what she had just put away), and who was higher than the other in relative elevation, etc.
I really feel that the media knows something that we don't, and they are sifting through the facts of the case to make it more sensational than it already is. I am not blaming her for the accident, but I feel that there is something missing that the media is not reporting. I have a great deal of mistrust wherever the media and politicians are involved. (no offense meant Brian, but some of your colleagues are grandstanding motherf'ers.)
I truly feel sorrow for the victim , her family, and the shooter and his family. There certainly was no winner in this case. Everyone lost.
I have shown my boys every article that I could find on this event, and I have told them that is why I am the only one who gives the okay to shoot when we are out in the field. Only me. Once I feel they have had enough experience, and can identify their targets reliably for a safe and humane shot, they'll make that decision on their own.
Is there a way to get a copy of the report?
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"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"
Be like Big Stick!
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winterchrome
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Native Slab
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Reged: 11/15/01
Posts: 1254
Loc: Tumwater
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DF,
Try this.
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frostop
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Chromer
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Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 644
Loc: Athol, Idaho
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This is a sad story no matter how you slice it. It's stories like this and my own experience in the woods that have caused me to primarily bow hunt. To many people have been mistaken for bears, deer and other wildlife, which to me make absolutely no sense and is inexcusable. In this case i believe that no shot should have been taken at all, at 120 yards in a drizzling rain it is difficult to idendify an object, and if you are not positive you don't evan raise your firearm!! As far as the media reports, they always twist things against the firearm especially in that neck of the woods! The investigators report should be the first thing to be published
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"It's all about the battle"
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Sturgeonator
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He who dies with the most toys wins.
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Reged: 02/11/08
Posts: 125
Loc: Idaho
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http://www.predatorxtreme.com/ArticleCon...or-Manslaughter
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It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.
-George Washington
Tight Lines,
Len
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