Black_Ghost
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Its time to buy some more, have been using on a limited basis the Rio Fluor Flex Plus any body have any other preferences I should consider before the big purchase is made ?
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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fredaevans
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Well the 'leader' stuff is pricie as all get out. Too catch fishermen?
I've been tieing up straight F/C leaders for some time now useing straight F/C line (the butt section is still 25-30# maxima main line)to build leaders, and it's worked out well. You can buy a couple hundred yards of 'line' for the price of a small spool of 'leader material.'
Fish don't seem to know the difference. Also amazing just how strong 8# tippet made from this stuff really is. Decked/released a king a couple of days ago that would have clocked in at just under 25#.
fae
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Fred A. Evans
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Marty
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Fred what brand are you using? The regular spools are normally a fluouro coated line.
And how are your knots holding up?
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Marty
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Steelheader69
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I've found that with FC you must REALLY lubricate the knots. You have to heavily spit on them before you cinch them down. I don't use it alot, but found that the slightest heat will ruin the holding power.
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Project Healing Waters
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cupo
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Most people hate it, but I use 8lb Vanish when the water is really clear. I've had 0 problems with it breaking on steelhead, humpies, or silvers.
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This can't be healthy. All this fishing is really messing with my head.
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BobK
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Here in the Great Lakes, we often fish in below freezing (sometimes below zero) weather. Vanish (Berkley's brand) is universally hated - it has no knot strength in cold temperatures (at least that is the experience here!)
Jerry is right - you do need to wet the knots well, and pull 'em tight with a jerk. Friction is high with fluoro, and it takes a good technique.
But the advantages in abrasion resistance, faster sink rate and less visibility pays dividends in fish. That's why I use it.
BobK 
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Black_Ghost
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Yes I know all about the FC knot problems lost about 6 steelies last year due to poor knots I think thats why I am not sold on it. But maybe it was my knot tying, I always wet them well but maybe I am using the wrong knots.
What knots is every one using to:
1: Link FC to butt section of maxima
2. To the fly
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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BobK
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Knots I use for tippets:
For tippet to leader:
Either blood knot (6 turns of each) or "triple surgeon" knot (sometimes, "quad" or more depending on lb. test.).
For tippet to fly: Clinch, improved clinch, or uni knot. (Six turns minimum!)
Wet 'em well. Pull tight with a "jerk".
I swear by fluoro now. But remember THIS:
I always TEST the knot for strength - just put the hook in a line guide on the butt section of your rod, and PULL it - In a surprising number of times when the leader slips and the hook becomes untied, even on a "perfectly" tied knot! (This is true of NYLON, too!) I have made a habit of this for years - amazing how many times knots are not as perfect as we think, even though we are careful tying 'em!
BobK
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Black_Ghost
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I used triple or quad surgeons for tippet to leader - FC.
Improved clinch, trilene or duncan loop to fly. (Not doing 6 turns though, 4-5 usually)
Thanks will start practiving my fluor knots BEFORE I AM ON THE RIVER.
Also starting to hear not good things about Sea Guar fluor, guess I will stick with Rio Fluor Flex Plus unless some one has an alternative. All my fly shop has is the Rio at this time anyway. Will be stopping there on Friday PM before football game to purchase some.
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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Marty
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I am using the sea guar flouro on leaders in a limited basis. Interesting point on the "jerk" to tighten.. impulse the knot?
I do always make sure its wet before clinching but hadn't heard to Jerk the knot. Improved clinch knot user here.
Oh did I mention I hate vanish  ... couldn't get any reliablity out of it on my knots. Cupo what knots you using?
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Marty
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Ash
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I've been using 4lb vanish for tippet material for a couple months, I really like it. I use Polomar and Turle knots though...
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2 Forks is Confusing, 3 Forks makes for Excitment
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Ash
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sorry forgot to mention, if you look inside the Vanish box Berkley recomends the "Trilene Knot" for use with their FC lines... It looks like a double clinch to me.
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2 Forks is Confusing, 3 Forks makes for Excitment
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Steelheader69
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I've only used the Cabela's brand. Was sent a free spool of their brand when it first came out. Came with an order I had. Worked great for summerruns when water was clear. But had to work on the friction when closing knots.
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TEAM JACKSON BALDWIN
Project Healing Waters
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fredaevans
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for leaders is Silver Thread. Don't know who the manufacture is of the line but it's tough as nails. I'm 99% as spey rod user so I'll use a 25-30# butt section of Maxima main line for this section, the rest is scaled down to the tippet size of the F/C main line.
Keith Jackson, a e mail correspondent on another board and an out door mag. writer, sent me several spools of the stuff to try. Zero complaits (sp?) on it's performance. Have also sent out a doz. or more of my leaders of this material and same results.
To connect the leader sections I use a triple surg. knot. Key here is if the knot comes out looking like a 'ball,' you've screwed up the connection. Cut it out and do it again. The knot should end up looking like a 'blood knot'to assure you've 'done it right.'
fae
Should have added: A large percentage of the 'very good'flyrodders down here use maxima main line for their leader material(s). They may use a 'regular' tippet material for the last connection, but the stiffer 'main line'material allows for a better roll out of the leader.
"Oh did I mention I hate vanish?'" Seen the same statement in/on Board print on several occations; the product doesn't appear to have a large following.
fae
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Fred A. Evans
Edited by fredaevans (10/01/03 10:01 PM)
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Marty
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Thanks fred.. I ordered the cabelas flouro and they sent seaguar.. I suspect thats whos making the flouro for them. Haven't tried the Silver thread, but will keep it in mind on the next go round.
Did I mention I am headed to the skeena system 
--------------------
Marty
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oldman
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A Since this thread is about Florocarbon leaders I though that I would ask this question. I just got hooked up with a Spey Rod,Reel,and Line. And what I'm trying to learn is what is used for leaders coming from the butt that is tied to the end of the line. I know about trout leaders but when fishing with a spey rod are they different.
Jim
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fredaevans
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typically use Maxima main line from top to tippet. Two basic reasons: can't get any less expensive, and (the real reason) is it's stiff even down to 6-8 # material.
The stiffness is necessary to transfer the energy from the cast out/down to the fly. Limp leader material will fold up like wet newspaper on you. If you're 'dry lining' you'll probably have at least a 12-18 foot long leader, the softer material will 'float back' and wrap itself around the line.
Stiffer main line (Maxima, anyway)doesn't have this tendency. Should add, the Silver Thread leaders I use are good out to about 15 foot, then you begin to have problems .. especially if you're useing a two fly set up.
fae
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Fred A. Evans
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oldman
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Well since I'm new to it I don't think thay I'm going to use two flies as trying to launch one is hard enough. Oh, I'm also going to have a lesson or two to get me going in the right direction. But thank you for the help. So do you build a tapered leader or just run it in sections.
I have a friend that Spey fishes and I notice that his fly leader seems to do that,pile up at the business end.
Jim
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fredaevans
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leaders. Most have 12" of this 16" of that and are a royal pain in the butt to tie. I stick to a "kiss" program. Each section of the leader (5) will be approx. 3 foot long for leaders 'tipping out' at 10#. Measurments are very specific here .... :>) .... I just pull out a run of line from the middle of my chest to the tip of the fingers ... 3' give or take an inch. End leader is about 15 foot long. Want an 18 foot leader ... ADD A SECTION!!, want a 12 foot leader, cut the runs down to 2.5 foot each.
For leaders of 6-8 pounds I will go to 6 sections so the taper is a little more dramatic. Each run here will be closer to 18 inches to 24 inches long. Sections are connected together with a triple surg. (aka water) knot.
fae
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Fred A. Evans
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BobK
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Good advice, Fred! I hate the directions, use 8 inches of this, 8 inches of this.... I think only technical idiots write and follow those. Fred's right - make longer sections, heavier and stiffer at the top (thicker) section, but more supple in the tippet. These turn over beautifully.
Generally, the darn "knotless tapered" leaders that you buy are one piece, constantly tapering from end to end. The whole thing is of the same stiffness. That's why most of us tie 'em ourselves (plus the fact that we are "cheap", or as Hal would say, "economically prudent".)
BobK
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Black_Ghost
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KISS my MO also for leaders. But Fred I am very surprised at the length of leaders you are using. I am normally no more than 7-8 feet in length and when the water is highly stained down to 3-4 feet. That with my heavy sink tip and heavily weighted nymph or streamer gets down fairly quick but I am not fishing really deep holes mostly runs no more 6-10 feet deep many times 4-6 feet deep.
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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williegunn
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king
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I tend to agree what is the point of sinking your line down 20 ft if the fly is floating 15 ft above it on a great long leader.
I use Fred's type set up for " greased line" work but when fishing a tip I have about 3ft of 15 lb maxima loped to the end of the fly line.
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Malcolm
<")////<
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Black_Ghost
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Malcolm,
How do they get so detailed salmon and sea trout reports over there in the local papers telling who caught what and on what type of fly etc. See link below.
Are there newspaper reporters covering the salmon and sea trout fishing.
Nothing like this detail over here in the states on fishing results. I could just see them interviewing me on my days catch let alone Fred or BobK. Definitely would not want my tired looking face in any newspapers after hard days steelheading.
LOL
BG
http://icnewcastle.icnetwork.co.uk/0200sport/7000digest/content_objectid=13472150_method=full_siteid=50081_headline=-Angling--Bywell-salmon-catches-on-rise-name_page.html
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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williegunn
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king
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There was a gentleman who wrote the angling repoerts as a part time job, whenever he heard of a good catch/ large fish. he penned an article and was paid Ł0.01 a word or some such. It was amazing what he could come up with week after week. He would wander up to you when you were fishing and ask if anything was happening, a casual mention that Bob or Jim had one suddenly became a ten pound artiicle for him. Everyone was happy, the newspaper sold papers, the writer got his beer money, the angler his week of fame. Win win.
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Malcolm
<")////<
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williegunn
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king
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What amazes me is how someone in the great lakes finds them
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Malcolm
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Black_Ghost
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I have my world wide fly fishing news search strings almost perfected. Remember "Information itself is power' - Francis Bacon - 1600."
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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williegunn
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king
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Was Francis Bacon still alive at 4 o clock?
Willie Gunn 19:45
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Malcolm
<")////<
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Steelheader69
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LOL Malcolm. Hmmmmm, think he was well decayed by 4 pm here.
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BobK
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Actually, searching the 'net for obscure news items is Hal's way of 'Killing time" at work..... and he gets PAID while doing it.
Then he has the unmitigated gall to criticize us poor retired folk!
Too much spare time....Way, way too much spare time......
BobK 
Edited by BobK (10/03/03 02:09 PM)
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oldman
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Who has too much spare time I don't. All my time is taken up from fishing. If I had any more spare time I could sit in from of this stupid screen and type more words into it.
One old grouch 
Jim
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BobK
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I was referring to Hal - here he is, supposed to be working, and he spends his time searching the news articles
for "obscure" news stories about fishing. (Boy, good thing he didn't work for me! I expected my people to work!)
Then he criticizes us "retired old farts" for having it so good - we can go fishing, (chase women, hunt, or tie flies, etc.) "any time we want"! 
BobK
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fredaevans
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The upper Rogue allows you to dry line fish the majority of the year as it's dam controlled about 30 miles upstream from Medford, OR. First significant 'feeder stream'comes in about a mile down stream.
So even if the river were to be 'blown out' during the winter, not often, there is always this stretch that will be running clear water. (If it's not we're in BIG TROUBLE!)
With sink tips, as noted by Malcom above, I'll run a shot of 24-36 inches behind the sink tip. Shorter for unwted. flys, longer for a wted. fly.
fae
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Fred A. Evans
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fredaevans
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The long leaders are for dry line work, which you can do almost year round on the Rogue. The upper river is dam controlled, with the first feeder stream coming in about a mile below.
This section will be running clear, even if everything else were to be blown out. (If this should not be the case, we've got a BIG PROBLEM here in the valley!!!)
Leader for tip work will be 24-36 inches long. Short for unwted. flys, longer for wted flys.
fae
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Fred A. Evans
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BobK
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Sure did, Fred. Got sidetracked by that article that Hal submitted. Sorry 'bout that.
Here on the Great Lakes Tribs (Lake Ontario, anyway), a sink tip would be overkill for the relatively shallow streams. I guess in the midwest, they have deeper streams.
For the most part, with relatively few exceptions, a floating line serves well, and you can always switch to a weighted fly for the few deeper pools/runs. As for me, I simply use standard beadhead flies most of the time. Therefore, I generally use a leader roughly as long as the rod, or a little shorter. For my 11'3" "single hand" spey rod, I generally make 'em up 4 ft. of 25# test, 3 ft. of 20# test, 2 ft. of 15# test, and 2 ft. or so of tippet of the size fish and water conditions dictate.
BobK
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Steelheader69
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LOL Bob. Yeah, I found out the hard way about fishing the GL's. My exwife worked for Northwest Airlines. So we literally flew for free (that myth about paying only taxes isn't true, we paid WELL below that). So visited my relatives in MN alot, and friends in MI and OH (her's in MI, mine in OH). So did as much fishing as I could when we went there. Well, my first experience I've told Hal about, and have posted on a few boards.
We headed over to visit for the first time. I'd never fished the GL's, so asked what to bring (this was prior internet). He said to bring all the flies I use for steelhead. Well, showed up with a box full of flies ranging from a size 2-2/0 dressed pretty full for winter fishing. Had my 9wt with tips mostly. I showed up in horror looking at his gear, and him laughing at mine. He was shocked I caught fish on it here (I mostly fish the Nooch, Hoh, and Duc for winterruns),so I used bigger flies. He had nothing but egg patterns and the likes. Plus was using a 7wt if memory serves me right. Still had a good time, but my flyboxes sat unused. LOL.
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BobK
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You should have tried them, Jerry. Steelhead are steelhead, and I often use "flesh flies" (and BIG ones, but the law limits me to a 1/2 inch hook gap) in the winter with success, and I'm going to start experimenting with speys and others in larger sizes. It just might work (it should), and I'm going to give it a fair shake. (BTW, even Hal managed to pick up some salmon on Snake patterns this year.)
BobK
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oldman
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Have a question for Fred. What size dry flies do you use with a spey? When I use my single hander I go down to a 18. I don't think you can go that small with a spey rod. I have some problems with a 18 as I have trouble trying to insert my leader into the Little Bity eye.
Jim
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Steelheader69
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Jim, you can go as small as you like. Just have to taper down your leader. Only thing, if you have a heavier weight spey, you'll be overgunning. Remember, it's harder to cast a big fly on a smaller weight rod then it is to cast a smaller fly on a larger weight rod. Just taper down your leader and you'll be fine. I know when I did trout fish, I used one of my summerrun 7wts to cast small nymphs. Worked fine. Sure Fred can give you all the details.
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BobK
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Hey, Jim -
You only have eye trouble tying 'em on? Hell, I can't even see 'em on the water anymore, especially the 18s! (It's tough to get old!)
BobK
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Black_Ghost
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Bobk Quote:
"I was referring to Hal - here he is, supposed to be working, and he spends his time searching the news articles
for "obscure" news stories about fishing. (Boy, good thing he didn't work for me! I expected my people to work!)"
I have automated news searches that automatically scan over 4500 international newspapers once daily for key business and fly fishing key words. All hits come up in one email per subject to me daily from which I choose what I want to read.
Really not a big time investment for me.
"Knowledge itself is Power"
Thats how I find the local news on fly fishing subjects.
Best to be in the know then not.
BG
P.S. Hey Bobk got your new NY fishing license I see they expire on October 1st each year ? Thats from an Oneonta News fly fishing article from a day ago. Check it out.
--------------------
"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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oldman
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dual red striper
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Just a question. It's just that if I was going to go small I would use a single hander for small flies. I don't think there is an advantage to using small flies on such a big stick.
I have recently invested in a big stick and before I go out and make a ass out of myself I will try and get in some lessons. But I don't thing that I will used it for dries,no matter how big they are.
This is just an opinion from a old man and not to be taken seriously
Jim 
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BobK
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Hey, Jim, I agree. In fact, I try to keep small flies for fairly close-in fishing, so I can keep better track of the dry flies, or line tip if nymphing. I like to keep 'em to 30 or maybe 40 feet tops, and fish 'em upstream. Amazing how close you can get to fish when moving upstream carefully! Long casts just seem to be overkill, at least in my humble opinion.
BobK
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fredaevans
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you use ... etc.
Most of my 'dry fly's' are actually 'skatters' done on size 4 to 6 hooks. The second varient are done (bless you Jim Jones as he ties them for us) are what are called "Bood Tubes." Actually tube flys where the leader is inserted about 1/4 below the top of the tube. Float like a cork, etc.
With skaters, the important thing is to tie on your leader then do a 'half hitch' well below the eye of the fly so it's riding on the water well 'head up.'
Hit the worldwide fly fishing form board and do a search under 'boob tube' and you'll tet photo's, etc., on the tie. As easy as you can get, and darned effective. Life is good with a river full of fish.
fae
--------------------
Fred A. Evans
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Black_Ghost
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Dry flies whats that ? LOL
Hardly every get a chance to use them here for steelies.
BG
--------------------
"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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BobK
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Hal - you SHOULD try 'em - for summer runs (Skamania). They DO hit 'em - patterns like the "moose turd" draw strikes - not as many as drifting a big stone fly, but it's spectacular - and waiting a second or two to set the hook drives your nerves ragged.
BobK
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Black_Ghost
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The probabality of me raising a skammania to a dry fly "Is slim and none, and slim just left town"
"Fuggedabotitt" as the Goodfellows say.
I may be stupid but I am not dumb, my limited hours each year on the river pursuing steelhead on the fly will remain focused swinging flies with sink tips 1-3 feet from the bottom, where they are 80%+ of the time.
You must go down to them to have a higher probability of success the last 23 years of GLs steelheading have shown me.
I know the scenario and place I can probably get a skammania to rise, but again this year I was thwarted to pursuing, as the fish were not there.
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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BobK
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Some guys just don't like a challenge!
Some of us enjoy and relish a good challenge. REAL men do, anyway!
BobK
Edited by BobK (10/08/03 10:22 AM)
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Black_Ghost
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There is enough suffering and pain in steelhead fly fishing, adding dry flys to the mix is whole other level of pain and suffering.
I have never seen anyone fishing drys for steelhead in the GLs and no one I have met on the river has ever stated to me they have caught them on drys. I have seen people posit such in internet forumns but any one can talk who knows if they ever accomplished what they say.
I know the situation to apply the technique but many factors have to be right to have some probability for success.
Theres no guides that I know saying they will guide you using drys and guarantee any success.
Heres what really told me this a very low probability for GLs steelhead. Dave Richey of Michigan one of the first Michigan steelheading guides in the 70s who is now the Outdoor writer for a Detroit newspaper. Stated in an article a year or two ago he has never even raised a GLs steelhead to a fly in 30 years of fishing. When guiding he was on the water probably 200+ days. So if he could not do it in all those years there is nothing that convinces me that I will have any success given my much limited fishing time per year.
Am I thinking clearly as a normal prudent steelhead fly fisherman I ask you ?
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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oldman
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Well then he hasn't fished in the Northwest. I've caught two on dries and I keep trying for more. It can be done,but you need to be in the right place at the right time.
Now do you just fish for them in the winter or do you have access to them all year around.
There ain't nothing like a big fish smashing a fly on the surface.
Jim
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BobK
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Obviously, Hal doesn't know how to "wake" a fly. No, Hal, it's not normal dry-fly fishing. You have to SWING a dry fly, and if you look at a "moose turd", you will see the essential ingredients - mainly, a floating section (deerhair or similar "tail") above and extending past the hook eye.
No, don't plan on catching a lot of fish - but once you experience the sight the sight of a monster slab of chrome smashing a floater, you are HOOKED. No, you don't catch near as many as subsurface, and it only works when the water warms up (that means summer here on the Great Lakes). But man, the thrills are worth it.
Some guys just don't like a challenge, I guess. Just ask Matt Supinski if it can be done, if you don't believe me.
BobK
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oldman
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Well he's still young so what do you expect out of a youngster. Wait until he get on a few more years and then he will see the light.
Jim
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Black_Ghost
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OK, How many people here have raised a steelhead to a dry fly ? Not caught one, just raised one.
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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oldman
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Me,Me,Me. And it also a lot of fun this way.  
Jim
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Steelheader69
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I have. Raised and caught one on the dry.
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TEAM JACKSON BALDWIN
Project Healing Waters
CampChef Prostaffer
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Black_Ghost
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Two PNW fellows, there will be none from the GLs.
Thats why I want to fish out there to accomplish this one thing catch one on a dry !
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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BobK
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Hal - is Lake Ontario one of the Great Lakes? And isn't the Salmon R. one of the tribs? Guess what - Salmon R. Skamania
DO take "waked" floating flies, and I have caught 'em. And MORE THAN ONE! Don't ask how many - I don't keep count! Just often enough so I don't get disappointed.
But there is a trick - you have to be very "slow on the trigger". DON'T set the hook too soon - delay it a little (like maybe a full 2 seconds) to give 'em time to turn. (Seems like 2 lifetimes, not seconds)!
Anyway, yes, they can be caught. Fran Verdoliva (who is the DEC guy in charge of the Atlantic Salmon program) loves the method for "Salmo Salar" and Skamies. Thrilling, to say the least. You don't catch MANY, but the ones you get are special.
I guess you young guys don't like to work too hard
- no patience, I guess! 
BobK
Edited by BobK (10/09/03 11:49 AM)
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Black_Ghost
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They were probably resident rainbows.
I spent time in Missouri "You Will Have To Show Me"
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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fredaevans
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(like now) using a surface fly, skated or 'on the swing' is quite previlent. It's a toss up between the fellows if they want the fly to wake or just bounce along on the surface ala a regular dry fly.
A lot of success ,or lack there of, appears to be water temp. driven on our river. Now the waters getting a tad colder and fish are not as active (as in chasing dinner).
If you do dry line with a surface fly one thing you do want to do is have 6"-12" of free line under your rod holding finger. When you see the take, release the line!! this will actually drop the fly down into the fishs mouth and double your hook ups.
fae
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Fred A. Evans
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BobK
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Good point, Fred. I do it instinctively, without thinking about it.
As for Hal - I am glad he is stubborn. That means MORE FISH FOR ME and the rest of us!
(And to think this is the same guy who says, "Knowledge is power!")
BobK
Edited by BobK (10/10/03 04:55 AM)
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Black_Ghost
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I am also a realist, steelhead fly fishing has enough pain already.
Ever hear the phrase from E. Schwiebert's - Portrait of the Pere Marquette"?
"Steelhead fly fishing and suffering are the same thing. Steelheading builds character" etc..
I have felt the pain believe me. Dry fly fishing would be way too much pain for me.
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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BobK
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Yeah, Hal, sure....
You gave it away now. That clinches it. I guess you are just a "meat" fisherman at heart, not a sportsman. 
BobK
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Black_Ghost
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I have not killed a steelhead since 1985 or 1986 how many people can say that I ask you ? I will swear that on the bible if you like. Its the truth. It feels good to be in such an advanced strata also even if I am alone.
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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BobK
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Hope it feels good in such rarified atmosphere - I remember someone complaining about an "o-fer" streak not too long ago. Sorry, Hal - they don't count as "released fish"!
BobK
Edited by BobK (10/10/03 10:02 AM)
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fredaevans
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(PS: quit beating on Hal, He's just 'un-educated' in the ways of dry/skaters for steelhead :>) )
Important thing with these types of flys is to have a loop of 8-12 inches of line under your finger to release when you see the "take." Like Bass, fish will 'blow water' when they close their mouth so you've got to have a short shot of line ready to IMMEDIATLY drop when you see the take.
this drops the fly/hook right into the middle of their mouth; and you'll get the hook up. Strongly recommend most folks take a p.. before doing this kind of work. The first WHOOOAAAA! will bring a rush of 'internal water ...' into you're shorts. Dry/skater game requires you be on top of your 'game.'
fae
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Fred A. Evans
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Black_Ghost
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OK, I have not killed any steelhead that I have landed since 1985 or 1986.
Not many people posting they have raised a steelhead to a dry fly (Parrs do not count either. Heck I have done that.
Maybe thats my next career FF challenge to raise a mature steelhead to a dry fly ?
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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Black_Ghost
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Oh yeah I will ask Matt S. and then will get a bill for expert steelhead guide fly advice. Or I can book a trip with him for $ 500 a day minus the tip. Sure Bob, why don't you come out and we can go together for dry fly fishing for michigan skammies on the two days each year it may have a high probability of success.
I may be dumb but I am not stupid.
LOL
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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