Tally
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Why not a Glock. I thought they were suppose to be the hot item. Looking for a good .40 S/W for the top drawer.
A little more pop than a 9mm but not as big as a .45 is my thinking.
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There's only one other thing I'd rather be doing than fishing......Gettin' ready to GO fishing
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Rapid Robert
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I like Glock's, I own a G17 in 9mm and G21 in .45 ACP.
They're a great pistol for the $$$.
I've been a Glock owner for close to 20 years, shot my G17 comp for 5 years...they always run! 
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www.riversnw.com
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SKYGUY
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I was a Glock hater for a long time... Now I own a Glock 27 (.40) and love to shoot and carry it. I also own a HK USP in .40 and it is a great gun too, but I primarily carry the Glock now.
Go figure!
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fishhog
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I had a g19 for a long time. Great gun, just not for me. I couldn't hit jack with it.
Operator error??? yes indeed.
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Stay thirsty my friends
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cupo
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I like Glocks too. Have a 19 and will probably pick up another model some day. The grip angle felt weird the first time I shot one, but I really like them now.
I wouldn't choose a .40 over a .45 because of recoil. It's subjective, but I think the .40 recoil is snappier than the .45.
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This can't be healthy. All this fishing is really messing with my head.
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Tony1831
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I dislike the grip also. The Ruger P94dc works just fine!
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jimh
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Glocks vary depending on whether it was the original grip or later model.
Also, different models fit quite a bit different even in the same year. That impacts accuracy and felt recoil. A 19 and 17 feel/shoot quite a bit different for instance. One model 19 year might be great and the other stink. You should shoot different models.
Also, triggers can vary depending on whether it is stock or not. Some of the aftermarket triggers are actually heavier.
I don't think an intruder would know much difference between a 9, .40, and .45, but there really isn't much of a sound that's more annoying to my ears other than a .40. It's a really sharp crack to me, ymmv.
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SKYGUY
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Quote:
jimh said:
but there really isn't much of a sound that's more annoying to my ears other than a .40. It's a really sharp crack to me, ymmv.
+1
A .40 has a very distinct sound INMHO.
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Rapid Robert
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Quote:
jimh said:
but there really isn't much of a sound that's more annoying to my ears other than a .40. It's a really sharp crack to me, ymmv.
You want someting with an annoying sound, I'll bring my OLYMPIC ARMS K23P AR-15 pistol to Range Day...we're talkin a .223 w/ a 6.5" barrel. 
 ...I kinda got it tricked out now, from how it looks in this picture. 
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www.riversnw.com
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Tally
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So, a 9mm is plenty of gun to have in the top drawer?
I watched a few video's of a .45acp, not sure I want to go quite that big now. Like jimh said, an intruder will not know the difference. A 9mm with some hollow point bullets would do the trick.
I handled a few tonight, made my decision even harder....
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There's only one other thing I'd rather be doing than fishing......Gettin' ready to GO fishing
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Rapid Robert
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Tally, if you're not buying right away, come to Range Day, you'll be able to try out alot of different stuff.
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Bob Barthlow
www.riversnw.com
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Tally
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Good idea Bob.
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There's only one other thing I'd rather be doing than fishing......Gettin' ready to GO fishing
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SKYGUY
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I'll have both my .40 pistols there, more than welcome to give'em a shot.
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I love the smell of cured eggs in the morning.
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fishhog
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I'll for sure bring my XD45 and you are more than welcome to run some ammo through it.
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Stay thirsty my friends
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Rapid Robert
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My buddy in Oregon has a G18, I'll see if I can barrow that for you to try Tally...j/k!
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www.riversnw.com
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fishhog
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Now your talkin!!!!!!!
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Stay thirsty my friends
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Dogfish
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I'll bring my USP 40 and my XD .45 comact. I also hate the grip angle. No issues with the funtion, but that grip angle, no go.
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"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"
Be like Big Stick!
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GrimmReaper
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To me it boils down to what feels good in your hand. I will bring my XD's to Range Day. Bring some ammo & you can run it through them. .40S&W & .45ACP
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DAWG IT (verb) - To play an entire season of a sport and remain completely defeated.
Taking fish to the afterlife...
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NickVellios
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Quote:
Tally said:
So, a 9mm is plenty of gun to have in the top drawer? I watched a few video's of a .45acp, not sure I want to go quite that big now.
9mm is just fine for home protection IMO. I agree, hollowpoints are probably better for that 9mm. I use hollow, but use a "less lethal" standard round for the first shot. If they keep coming after a "warning" shot to the leg, they get something different.
If I come to range day you can test fire my P97.45ACP and my .22 side by side.
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Atheism is a non-prophet organization
There's nothing quite as rewarding as teaching a poacher to swim with waders on!
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Desertdog
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If I have to pop a cap in my home on an intruder you can bet it won't be a "warning shot" Center mass means no return fire IMHO.
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Grandpa to 9 boys 8 girls and 1 angel
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Tony1831
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...and if that doesn't work, failure-to-stop drill engages automatically!
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<---- "Jihad this!"
Semper fi
PGR Member, ANC R/C
Bocephus for President 2012
Just say NO to socialism
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NickVellios
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Desertdog, if an intruder is armed, that changes everything 
It seems that tweakers are the biggest problem in small towns in WA, and are unarmed more often than a gangster home invader in Oakland or LA.
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Atheism is a non-prophet organization
There's nothing quite as rewarding as teaching a poacher to swim with waders on!
Half-Time Student
Full-Time Employed
Double-Time Daddy
I miss fishing.....
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Desertdog
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I am not going to frisk em first. Center Mass then findout if they are armed. If they are not smart enough to stay out of my home ... then Darwin can have em.
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Grandpa to 9 boys 8 girls and 1 angel
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NickVellios
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Good point Desertdog, but good people make stupid decisions such as breaking into your home. Shoot first, frisk later. But I know that you wouldn't want to kill an intruder if you could have just immobilized him.
I guess what I would do would be determined in a real life situation, since in the moment of something like that, things never happen as planned.
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Atheism is a non-prophet organization
There's nothing quite as rewarding as teaching a poacher to swim with waders on!
Half-Time Student
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I miss fishing.....
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cupo
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Every firearms class and law enforcement academy teaches their students to aim center-mass. Nobody is taught to shoot people in the leg, foot, arm, etc. Center-mass is always the first choice. The only time they promote anything else is if CM hits don't work.
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This can't be healthy. All this fishing is really messing with my head.
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jimh
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Good people break into homes? ... not by my (and most people's) definition of good people. If you feel that it is a good person, I suggest you shouldn't shoot at all since you could accidentally kill them. For instance, what if you shoot them in the "leg" and they bleed out!
You either decide to pull the trigger and draw for that reason and kill them with lethal force because that's what's required, or you look into using a non lethal force weapon. You can't have it both ways.
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Rapid Robert
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Quote:
jimh said:
Good people break into homes? ... not by my (and most people's) definition of good people. If you feel that it is a good person, I suggest you shouldn't shoot at all since you could accidentally kill them. For instance, what if you shoot them in the "leg" and they bleed out!
You either decide to pull the trigger and draw for that reason and kill them with lethal force because that's what's required, or you look into using a non lethal force weapon. You can't have it both ways.
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www.riversnw.com
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Mojo
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Nick, pulling a weapon in a non lethal engagement is asking for that weapon to be ripped from your hands, and used on you. If you EVER point a weapon, it had better be to shoot to kill. If not shooting to kill, I suggest a phone is a better weapon, just dial 911.
Me personally, I'll point center mass and keep squeezing till I'm out...
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Tight Lines,
Mojo
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Dogfish
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Don't stop shooting until the threat is no longer a threat. That was what I was taught.
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"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"
Be like Big Stick!
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NickVellios
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I would guess that less than 5% of break-ins where a homeowner is faced with an advancing criminal could be handled in the way I stated. I agree fully that you shouldn't risk them pulling a gun or grabbing yours. Do what is in the best interest of the well being of you and your family. I was hoping to have people understand this without explaining it in too much detail, but I guess there are a lot of kill-happy gun owners around here who interpreted what I said as though I was a Peace Preaching Anti-Gun Hippie PETA Member lesbian. (ok, I am a lesbian, I love women) 
It only takes a fraction of a second to determine if someone will keep moving and another 1-2 seconds to empty a clip. The shooting in the leg wasn't to be taken too literally, it was just to give you an idea to why I use a standard round as my first shot no matter where it is placed. How fast can YOU empty a clip? It doesn't take long to put the real stopping power into a threat.
Jim, so you have never done anything stupid when you were a kid? You never stole a candybar, smoked pot, broken a window, or egged a house? I don't know how old you are, but if meth was around when you were a kid, what if you smoked that instead of pot? It only takes one time to get hooked and in a few months you began to lose your mind and lose control of all rational thought. Peer pressure has the potential to influence a teenager more than any parent could.
Watch the show "Intervention" some time and look at how many people were straight-A college students, had masters degrees, volunteered and donated to charity, and then tried a drug at a party and couldn't stop doing it. The only intentional mistake they made was trying the drug once, and that doesn't deserve death. Breaking into a house to support their addiction is from the drug's influence. I have seen it first-hand and almost lost my best childhood friend from a crack addiction. If I stayed in California after high school, who knows, I may have been caught up in that stuff. I can't imagine ever being stupid enough to touch the stuff, but peer pressure is a powerful thing. Does anybody say to themselves "I am gonna grow up to be a crackhead"? Luckily, his family organized an intervention and got him clean before he ended up shot in somebody's hallway because the homeowner thought the cellphone my friend just grabbed off his counter was a handgun. I know people who have broken into houses as kids and went to prison for selling drugs at 18 and are now have successful lives working at computer companies, married, kids etc.
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Atheism is a non-prophet organization
There's nothing quite as rewarding as teaching a poacher to swim with waders on!
Half-Time Student
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NickVellios
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Just because you CAN shoot and kill someone that breaks into your house, doesn't mean you have to under any circumstances. I hear way too many gun owners preaching instant death to any intruder no matter what the situation is, but in my opinion, someone who is that set on killing someone is no better than the criminal in their house. Use your rights responsibly. Some people turn a cigarette upside down after opening a fresh pack. They say it's for good luck. Me, well I put a standard round on top of a stack of hollow-points. Some people believe in god, but I believe in karma (to some extent), and when it comes around to check me out, it'll see that I gave the intruder every possible chance to live. There's my good luck charm. To each his own. There are dogs that attack when threatened, then there are dogs like my old pitbull that roll over and piss themselves. Everybody handles a situation differently.
To clarify, I know not everyone is a good person, and I am NOT saying to just shake an intruder's hand and say "Hey, I know you are a good person deep down, but just so you know, I am armed. Could you please wait while I call the cops? Have a seat, I'll have the wife brew up some coffee and get some cookies to snack on while you wait." If someone is running at you when they see a gun aimed at them, nobody should hesitate to fire every round in center mass as fast as they can. But what about in the case that it is dark and they are walking towards you and possibly cannot see you are holding a gun and maybe they didn't hear you pull back the slide? Depending on the distance, and whether or not they are sprinting at you or creeping slowly, you may not want to risk wasting time by telling them "Stop or i'll shoot!". If you know that if you wait the situation could turn dangerous for you, then you should just assume they see the gun, and assume they heard it cocked. Don't risk it, and fire. (just as you have all said)
Again, it's situation dependent. You may have enough time to handle things different. You may have time to say "stop" and if they lift a foot to take another step, you may be safe firing single round and pausing. This is assuming you don't have a <10' gap, but instead a 40'+ hallway and they were walking not sprinting your way and no weapon is seen. It only takes a fraction of a second to get a good idea what is about to happen next. If they are going to try to get away they will instantly try to turn, or they may fall and aim their open hand at you as a way of say "Stop shooting, I am not going to push my luck". If they stay standing and facing you, that is a pretty good sign that you need to do something more.
Once again, I DON'T KNOW what I would do until it happens and it all depends on the exact situation; the distance, whether they are armed, how aggressive they are moving my way. But I still want that one standard round in case everything happens to go as I have hoped it would in that situation.
If I end up shot dead in my house because I made a wrong decision, I give you FULL guilt-free permission to point at the TV as they show me in a bodybag on KING 5 News and say "Ha, see Nick? I told you so!"
--------------------
Atheism is a non-prophet organization
There's nothing quite as rewarding as teaching a poacher to swim with waders on!
Half-Time Student
Full-Time Employed
Double-Time Daddy
I miss fishing.....
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Rapid Robert
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www.riversnw.com
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Mojo
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"Once again, I DON'T KNOW what I would do until it happens and it all depends on the exact situation; the distance, whether they are armed, how aggressive they are moving my way. But I still want that one standard round in case everything happens to go as I have hoped it would in that situation."
...and that is why you take personal defense classes. You get trained so you KNOW what to do EVERY TIME. When shinola hits the fan, you do not have time to think. That is why military and law enfocement personnel train constantly. It is not brainwashing, it is preparing to save YOUR life.
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Tight Lines,
Mojo
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Dogfish
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Drawn twice, no shots fired, luckily. First time the guy dropped his knife and pissed himself. Back when I was a Denny's manager. Poor form to bring a knife to a gun fight.
The second time the guy dropped the Ruger SP 101 in .357 mag when he saw 3 deputies pointing guns right back at him (me, one of them). Both times I was halfway into my trigger pull when I released.
Time slows down, but both times it was center mass, and both times it was less than 10 feet. Tunnel vision occurs and training kicks in. The center of the tunnel is in focus, so that is where you shoot.
Until you've been there, you do not really understand it, but as MOJO said, that is why you train, so that when you need to do what you need to do, you do it right the first time.
BTDT, got the t-shirt and the bullet proof vest.
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"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"
Be like Big Stick!
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NickVellios
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I have been faced with a situation that would justify use of a firearm for protection. But I couldn't get to my gun before he got to his, and I was left to die on my own property. I am reminded every day by the scars on both sides of my face that is now held together with an assortment of plates and screws. So everything I have said is based off having been in a situation like this before, and going over what I would do differently if it happened again, every single day for the past 5 years.
This isn't a situation where someone can keep their cool when they have never been faced with it before. Even law enforcement officers in the business for a long time still make the wrong decision during the heat of the moment. Instinctive human traits can overcome a lifetime of training. You've heard of the "fight or flight" instinct I am sure. As said before in the archery forum, how many people have an increased heart rate, get very shaky, breath hard, pick the wrong sight pin, and think impulsively instead of logically when shooting at a target on the range? Now how about when a deer is 20yds away in the field? All the practice in the world could mean absolutely nothing in a panic situation because instinct takes over and makes your mind race back and forth about what to do, even if you have trained for years on what to do.
This 3-step process I came up with sums up EVERYTHING I typed and why I load one standard round:
Warn first, shoot second, kill third. (when applicable)
Ask any cop how their training compares to my 3-step process. I just did and he said he was taught:
Warn first, non-deadly force second (what do ya' know!), deadly force as a LAST RESORT ONLY.
I'll leave the thread to take its original course, but know that I am not taking anything personally or getting offended by responses, and don't take my opinion as anything but an opinion. I was just trying to explain my reason for the way I load my clip.
This topic has gotten me thinking pretty hard, and I would like to talk about this more in PM, especially from those who have actually been faced with a situation where they needed to use deadly force. So anybody who cares to, is welcome to send me a message. I may be at range day too, and with no formal training on how to handle a situation as we have discussed, maybe someone with experience and training can give a quick talk to us who haven't.
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Atheism is a non-prophet organization
There's nothing quite as rewarding as teaching a poacher to swim with waders on!
Half-Time Student
Full-Time Employed
Double-Time Daddy
I miss fishing.....
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cupo
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Quote:
NickVellios said:Ask any cop how their training compares to my 3-step process. I just did and he said he was taught:
Warn first, non-deadly force second (what do ya' know!), deadly force as a LAST RESORT ONLY.
Their non-lethal force is something along the lines of a taser or spray, not a poorly placed round. Firing a gun at someone is lethal force no matter what kind of ammo you topped off with. And there's always a section in their use of force policy that says lower levels of force can be skipped to meet the needs of the situation.
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This can't be healthy. All this fishing is really messing with my head.
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fish4steel
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Back on track to what weapon/caliber, I have a punk ass 380 with the "Clinton" outlawed hollowpoints under my headboard(talons). At point blank range....bye bye punk. If you want intimidation factor when there is light, a short barrel 12 gauge with BBs. No light, just pump the action. They know what that is.
One shot, one kill,in your house, no lawsuit. Dead punk.
But I don't have an attitude 
Thing is do you have kids to keep the weapon away from? Stashed handgun in that situation beats the shotgun.
You do not need a monster caliber for home defense. Range = 15 feet maximum. 380/9mm with nasty hollow points is more than adequate. A 45 will slam the perp against the wall with h/p's. They will all do the job.
Just went up through the thread before I hit "return"
Guess you can teach an old SGM new tricks
1. DD said I'm not gonna frisk 'em.
If they are in your house, I say shoot first to KILL and ask questions later. They aren't there for a cup of coffee.
2. If they are in your house, they aren't there for a can of coke. Shoot to kill.
3. Rule 3...see rules number one and two.
But as Mojo implied, if you are going to pull it out, pull the trigger, otherwise it will be pointed at you.
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Duty, Honor, Country!
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fish4steel
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WHOA.....I'm on page two.
Repeat rules number one two and three from page one.
Visitors in the middle of the night are NOT making a social call! No freaking questions asked! BANG BANG BANG!
And I'm not going to read the BS. In my house at night, 
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Team Jackson Baldwin
Duty, Honor, Country!
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cupo
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I saw a sign once that I wish I would have bought. It said, "If you are found here today, you will be found here tomorrow."
I was looking for a Glock 20 yesterday. One shop had one but wanted way too much. The other shop didn't have one in stock but can get it at a much better price. I've got one more avenue to check that might be cheaper yet.
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This can't be healthy. All this fishing is really messing with my head.
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NickVellios
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Quote:
cupo said:
I saw a sign once that I wish I would have bought. It said, "If you are found here today, you will be found here tomorrow."
I saw a better sign once. "Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be sexually molested"
 
--------------------
Atheism is a non-prophet organization
There's nothing quite as rewarding as teaching a poacher to swim with waders on!
Half-Time Student
Full-Time Employed
Double-Time Daddy
I miss fishing.....
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Tally
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The only reason a pistol comes out of the holster is to shoot the threat until it no longer exist.
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Tony1831
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Quote:
cupo said:
Every firearms class and law enforcement academy teaches their students to aim center-mass. Nobody is taught to shoot people in the leg, foot, arm, etc. Center-mass is always the first choice. The only time they promote anything else is if CM hits don't work.
I'm not trying to start a pissing contest, but I have to correct something here. In a hostage situation, shooters are trained to shoot for the thigh if possible. In training scenarios potential hostages are taught to intentionally make the thigh available as a target.
And yes, I did spend a few days training for this in Marine Security Forces.
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fishwhisperer
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I have mixed feelings on this in that I have always been of the opinion that you don't pull that pistol unless you intend to use it and then shoot to kill. That being said, many years ago my bro-in-law walked into my house (drunk)and ultimately our bedroom at 3:00 AM. I heard the footsteps before he entered the bedroom and had pulled my pistol out of the headboard. When he walked into the bedroom I was locked,loaded and had the sight dead center on his chest (I couldn't see who it was) I said "move and your dead" He mumbled whats going on and fortunately I recognized his voice because he was to drunk to stand still. If I had shot before and asked questions later I would have never forgiven myself. What a horrible thought. I am not sure if some of you are advocating shoot first and ask questions later or not. A person sure should give this issue some thought. It may not be someone you really want to kill. I could recite a few other different incidents that could have been a disaster involving innocent people just as I could tell of a couple instances where it was a good thing someone did shoot first. I don't claim to have all the answers. It is a pretty complex issue.
The other side of this debate is in theory if it had been a real intruder and I had hesitated, My wife and I could have been dead or who knows what. I guess there is not a right or wrong answer for every situation and one has to react according to the circumstances at the time. There isn't much time to figure out what to do when that time comes.
In the above stated story, part of the fault was mine in that living in the boondocks of Idaho, I never locked my doors. I do now but my adult kids all have keys. I have told them this story and what could have happened and let them know not to just walk in in the middle of the night unannounced.
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Confirm your threat.
Good thing you held off f/whisper
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Well said fishwhisperer, that is what leads me to believe "shoot to kill" isn't always the only way to use a gun. And as said by SGM Kurtz, the intimidation factor of looking down the barrel of a large gun, or the sound of a shell being being pumped into a 12g, or the slide being cocked back on a semi-auto can have someone running before you need to kill. But as fishwhisperer ALSO said, his hesitation could have gotten him killed in other situations. But things like this will never happen the same as imagined so go with your instinct for what is best for your family's well-being.
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Actually Nick, fishwhiperer didn't shoot at all, and fishwhisperer said he should have had doors locked so that it was a little harder for someone to wander in. That wasn't technically a break in since the door was an "easy opener".
I don't think those that suggest that you should "shoot to kill" suggest that you should shoot everyone you see. 
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NickVellios
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Quote:
jimh said:
Actually Nick, fishwhiperer didn't shoot at all, and fishwhisperer said he should have had doors locked so that it was a little harder for someone to wander in. That wasn't technically a break in since the door was an "easy opener".
I don't think those that suggest that you should "shoot to kill" suggest that you should shoot everyone you see.
I know. It's been cleared up already that we all have similar ideas on how to handle the situation, but don't agree on every detail. You know what they say, there is more than one way to skin a tweaker! To each his own.
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i was told that in police type firearms training a guy with a knife 15 yrds away can be on you before you could draw and aquire a sight picture. Due to reaction times and what not. In a practical pistol course we practiced a 5 yrd draw and hip shoot.
I don't belive WA law allows you to shoot someone whos has entered your home. I know Oregons law is that you can use Deadly Force to defend yourself or another from the threat of deadly force. I will have to check on WA's.
I would suggest everyone who chooses to defend themselves and their family with firearms find, read and know the law.
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Tony1831
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Well Grimm, I'd suggest they not try it on this guy.
2 shots in 0.02 seconds 
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GrimmReaper, your legality comment brings up partially why I don't want to kill just ANYONE that looks like they "may" harm me. My son isn't in any better of a situation in the long run if I am shot dead from trying to end the situation with a burglar without killing him, or in prison because I heard footsteps and emptied a clip.
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Tony1831
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Maybe you miss the point of at least you would be alive, albeit in prison.
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Nick, enlighten us on what kind of person is not just an "ANYONE". Do you ask the burglar to fill out an application? Or, do you wait until they kill you to decide? Sorry, your argument is ridulous.
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My god, if you don't understand my view by now then let it go. It doesn't have to be BLACK or WHITE. There are more options than to either shoot anybody you see in your house, or not shoot anybody (even if danger is for sure). There's a gray area that fishwhisperer took advantage of when he made a LOGICAL decision about whether or not to shoot. He mentioned he could have been killed for not shooting right away, which I agree. He could have. However, if he fired a shot and heard his brother in law's voice identify himself, then what? If it was a .45 ACP HP at an upwards angle right below the ribcage, he would be toast. If the first round was a FMJ, he may survive. These things don't happen as if acted out from a script, so there will never be an exact repeat of a situation, therefore there isn't a perfect answer for every situation.
WHY do I have to keep explaining this in different ways, over, and over, and over, and over again only to have people come back and give the EXACT same reply in different ways over, and over, and over again? I don't feel that it's necessary to shoot in the direction of any creak my house makes. fishwhisperer's story, and GrimmReaper's point about legality backs up why. If I'm in obvious danger, I'll shoot. <---- read that and don't reply if you are going to say the same thing again PLEASE.
I guess fishwhisperer should have shot that one night then, right? If you disagree with my opinions stated, then you are disagreeing with the decision fishwhisperer made. Which means you believe he should have shot his brother-in-law just in case it was a murderer. Because we all know that it's a smart decision to risk shooting a family member just to be safe, even if you have no idea who it is, and whether or not you are even in danger at all! Right?
fishwhisperer had no proof that he was in danger, and didn't fire, but that doesn't mean he was going to sit around with his thumb up his ass assuming it was a drunk relative. He did the right thing, and was on the ball when he drew his weapon, aimed, and evaluated the situation. He did what I have been explaining this whole time, so why have I been the only one getting disagreements about what I said? Why aren't you saying that to him? I am not saying you should, rather that this is a bunch of bullshit IMO. Pick one side and stick with it. If you disagree with me, then agreeing with him doesn't make sense.  If you choose to shoot anybody you see in your house, well that's your choice and I'll make sure to rob your neighbor instead. I hope you don't ever kill someone who didn't deserve it.
Haven't you ever heard "Identify your target" when referring to hunting? It's to save lives of people who don't deserve to die. Whether that "target" in your house is an innocent relative, a non-violent robber that is too scared to immediately turn and run away, or someone set on taking your life. You need to know not only whether you know them or not, but if they are a threat. A thief in your house that is there only to steal doesn't deserve to die. A criminal there to commit a violent crime, even if spur of the moment after you see them robbing you, you does deserve to be immobilized, whether it be death, or darn close to it.
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Nick, I'm asking what you meant by "I don't want to kill just ANYONE".
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NickVellios
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Jim, this is what I meant. I don't want to shoot someone just because they broke in. I don't want to fire toward the sound of footsteps in the dark, or someone in my house stealing stuff. Once I have positively identified them as someone who shouldn't be there, I still won't shoot unless I have a reason to act in SELF DEFENSE.. I have made it more than clear what I mean, so WHY ask again?
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jimh
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So, they have to shoot at you first. Is that what you mean?
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NickVellios
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Quote:
jimh said:
So, they have to shoot at you first. Is that what you mean?
 
Jim, did you even r.... *sigh* you know what, forget it. I guess mental institutions are proof that you can't talk sense into everybody. I now see how Ron White came up with the line "You can't fix stupid"
So I guess I need to take a different approach....
Yes Jim, that is exactly what I mean.  I was getting a little frustrated for a bit because I clearly stated that I want to take a bullet before I give one. But I guess you didn't catch that part at first. Wheww! For a moment there I was beginning to doubt your reading comprehension skills.
But there is a flaw in my self-defense tactic I would like to bring up. You see, I also clearly stated that I would like to shoot innocent family members. (you read that part too, right?) That COULD be done by firing blindly into the dark whenever I hear a sound in my house, but that would unfortunately go against my rule of taking a bullet before I give one, regardless of the level of danger. So seeing as I would still like to shoot in-laws, there may be times where I have to shoot myself before I can shoot a family member, but I am sure you already came to that amazing conclusion too.
Glad that's all cleared up!
Will you shutup about it now?
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Nick, did you ever stop to think why you feel like you have to level personal insults in a thread?
You are the one that introduced your new convoluted viewpoint, and I was just trying to figure out what you meant. If you don't want any questions, maybe you shouldn't post where others can see your words.
BTW, you also said...
Quote:
NickVellios said:I'll leave the thread to take its original course, but know that I am not taking anything personally or getting offended by responses, and don't take my opinion as anything but an opinion.
So without asking clarifying questions, how am I supposed to know which points you are sticking to?
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I haven't given any personal insults that I am aware of.
I stand by my original point, but I guess you didn't catch the sarcasm in that last post. That doesn't surprise me, seeing as how you still don't understand what I have been talking about this whole time, even after rephrasing it 9 times, giving specific examples, scenarios, and every possible detail. I don't think anybody else here, having read all my comments, would not understand my view. They may not agree, but they understand. So if you are having such a hard time with something this simple, that's your problem, and it's best if you just drop it.
My original post was a simply reply with like 2 or 3 sentences. But I have had to write a freaking novel in an attempt to get my point across so people quit saying mindless things as you did, with your "take a bullet before giving one" comment, or as said by others "If someone is in my house, they are shot until dead. Period. Ask questions later." Even with two people telling about personal real life experiences that prove how that is a stupid thing to do. Even the story about the tweaker eating that guy's food, then beating him and his son up, backs up my point. He was justified to use a firearm, but he STILL ended up in prison. As sickening and unjust as that is, it shows how even if you don't kill someone you know, you can still end up in prison, so use deadly force only when needed. Because you aren't just being irresponsible with the life of a nonviolent burglar, but your freedom as well. Real life experience is something that, more than likely, those who commented negatively do not have.
End of story, this doesn't need to continue any further. I am, and have been for a while now, sick of this discussion.
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Nick, your rants are fun to read, but I wouldn't say we were in a discussion. In any case, I agree this thread has run its course.
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Mojo
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Kinda reminds me of the big stick...
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Lead_Bouncer
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Quote:
Tally said:
So, a 9mm is plenty of gun to have in the top drawer?
I watched a few video's of a .45acp, not sure I want to go quite that big now. Like jimh said, an intruder will not know the difference. A 9mm with some hollow point bullets would do the trick.
I handled a few tonight, made my decision even harder....
9mm has been known to get hung up in muscle tissue. In the woods, several folks have recommended jacketed slugs for penetration of bear, etc. The biggest concern I would have with a 45 or a 10mm is going thru the target and passing thru the wall. A 10mm has more power than a 45 according to the sheet I read.
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Having know people who went thru the course, its common knowledge, a regular guy, with a knife, within 21 feet, will wound you fatally, before you draw and shoot him. Thats reason enough to change your first load preference.
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NickVellios
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Would somebody like to explain how I ended up getting this crap from everybody? I clearly and calmly explained what I meant, IN DETAIL, about a dozen times. If you read just a fraction of one of those replies, you'd understand my point. You'd know that all I was trying to explain is that I will act responsibly and not kill someone if I don't have a need to kill them. That isn't anything bad, rude, offensive, or stupid.
I think I understand.... It must be because, those people who feel the need to kill before they ask questions, are the same people who don't read before they comment...
Who do you all think you are to judge me? I feel like I am in a damn firing line! Why do you give a damn whether or not I load my clip with hollow-points, FMJ, or a combination of both? Why do you give a damn if I DON'T shoot everybody I see? Last I checked, manslaughter was when someone dies because of your negligence. Shooting at a target you aren't positive of, and at someone you don't know is going to attack you, is a NEGLIGENT use of deadly force. Did they teach you THAT in training? Someone being cautious and making a split-second evaluation of a situation before shooting, as to prevent accidental death to others, is MUUUUUUUCH worse than someone playing GOD...Right?
So ANYWAYS, how about them Glocks?
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SKYGUY
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Nick, The real problem is you don't know when to shut your yap.
Your opinion is just that.... Yours! You don't need to try and convince everyone your way is the only way. You have some valid points, just leave it alone and stop trying to twist everything into an argument.
Just my .02, not trying to bash you.
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NickVellios
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I am not trying to convince anybody that my way is the only way, but after trying to explain how my way is not a bad way, only to have people continue to say it's wrong, I figured I would explain the negative sides of their way.
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Skyguy is right, just let it gooo...there is a phrase that is great in discussion, whether it be with a spouse, peer or whomever....when the discussion has run it's course....you calmly and respectively say, "Well, we should agree to disagree on this matter"...no feelings hurt, no bad feelings....just part ways!
Nick, try that!
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NickVellios
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Alright Musicman, I will.
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TeXMojo
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Where's a mod when you need one, this thread needs to be locked away. Agree to disagree.
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Agreed. I wish it didn't go this way, and I'll admit, I should have just zipped it from the start.
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now that we agree...I'll give a vote for the Berreta 9mm (92fs I believe)
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fishwhisperer
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Good pick Caught. I bought a Sig .357 p239. COuldn't hit crap with it. Gave it to my wife and she shoots lights out. I picked up a Bereta 9 mm fs and shoot great with it. It fits my hand. 9 mm isn't my favorite round but since I am pretty deadly with it I will keep it. It is a little big for cc though. My son got a Springfield 1911a Colt copy (.45 cal) and I shoot great with it also. There are a lot of great guns out there, what is great to one person is lousy to another. Rather than concentrating on caliber, try them until you find one that you are really accurate with regardless of caliber. I have big hands so a bigger framed pistol works best for me. I would much rather be able to put 10 smaller caliber (9mm??) bullets in a 6 " circle at 10 yds than only be able to hit a man size target 1 out of 10 times with .500 S&W. at the same distance. Just my opinion and I will prolly get flamed for it.
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bigkat
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I have owned or currently use the following Glocks G23 (.40), G21 (.45), G27 (.40) and G35 (.40). I liked the 45 but the grip was too wide for my hand I shoot alot better with the G35 .40. Also I usually carry my S&W Airweight .38 special just because its more comfortable to carry.
All my guns are loaded w/ 1 in the chamber all the time with the exception of my M-16 that has a 30 round clip in it nothing in the chamber.
If I had the coin to slap down I would buy a Kimber TLE absolutly the best 45 I have shot. I couldn't believe the groupings I was getting.
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TeXMojo
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Quote:
fishwhisperer said:
Good pick Caught. I bought a Sig .357 p239. COuldn't hit crap with it. Gave it to my wife and she shoots lights out. I picked up a Bereta 9 mm fs and shoot great with it. It fits my hand. 9 mm isn't my favorite round but since I am pretty deadly with it I will keep it. It is a little big for cc though. My son got a Springfield 1911a Colt copy (.45 cal) and I shoot great with it also. There are a lot of great guns out there, what is great to one person is lousy to another. Rather than concentrating on caliber, try them until you find one that you are really accurate with regardless of caliber. I have big hands so a bigger framed pistol works best for me. I would much rather be able to put 10 smaller caliber (9mm??) bullets in a 6 " circle at 10 yds than only be able to hit a man size target 1 out of 10 times with .500 S&W. at the same distance. Just my opinion and I will prolly get flamed for it.
Bottom line is, you have to have a pistol that feels good and is comfortable. 380, 9, 40, or 45, if you feel comfortable handling it, your gonna hit the sweet spot on the dude, even if its a tweeker, pump 4 or 5 rounds in the right location and its lights out. Just my opinion.
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Ahab
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Quote:
NickVellios said:
Good point Desertdog, but good people make stupid decisions such as breaking into your home. Shoot first, frisk later. But I know that you wouldn't want to kill an intruder if you could have just immobilized him.
I guess what I would do would be determined in a real life situation, since in the moment of something like that, things never happen as planned.
Anyone breaks in my house has two choices. 1) face down spread eagle on the floor NOW! Or,it will be my word against a dead guy with a big hole in his chest. Either way nobody with a wounded leg will be able come up with some bullshit story and sue me.
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Picked up a G27 on Friday. An early B-day present to myself:D Came with an extended mag and a couple extra stock mags. Couldn't buy any personal defence rounds only shootem up stuff. Going to take it out tomorrow (hopefully) and run some rounds through it
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Stay thirsty my friends
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Lead_Bouncer
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25 dollar expert since 2007
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Reged: 08/09/07
Posts: 2271
Loc: king county
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Fishhog, isnt 180 gr enough?
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fishhog
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Mining for steel
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Reged: 12/15/03
Posts: 5627
Loc: Whatcom
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180gr is just fine. What I meant was I couldn't lay my hands on any hollowpoints. 180gs FMJ will do the job I'm sure if necessary.
I got a box of Speer golddot 180gr hollow points from one of my buddies for my B-day. Those will do the job too
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Stay thirsty my friends
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Lead_Bouncer
Offline
25 dollar expert since 2007
Profile Status:
Reged: 08/09/07
Posts: 2271
Loc: king county
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The ammo guys recommended FMJ over hollow for run ins with a bear.
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fishhog
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Mining for steel
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Reged: 12/15/03
Posts: 5627
Loc: Whatcom
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Here's a pic of my new toy
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Stay thirsty my friends
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Tally
Offline
Man of Steel
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Reged: 02/23/04
Posts: 2194
Loc: In my Sled
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Very nice.
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There's only one other thing I'd rather be doing than fishing......Gettin' ready to GO fishing
Member, Friend's of the Cowlitz
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workin4fishin
Offline
Chromer - I wonder what one looks like up close
Profile Status:
Reged: 09/13/02
Posts: 3267
Loc: Monroe WA
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Hating you more each day Mark.
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fishhog
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Mining for steel
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Reged: 12/15/03
Posts: 5627
Loc: Whatcom
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Cmon, you know the old addage, you can NEVER have too many
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Stay thirsty my friends
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Rapid Robert
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Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
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Reged: 03/08/02
Posts: 3902
Loc: Selah Wa.
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Quote:
fishhog said:
Cmon, you know the old addage, you can NEVER have too many
So true Mark, so true, just when I said I was not building any AR's this summer...ok I'm only building one.
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Bob Barthlow
www.riversnw.com
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GrimmReaper
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Chromer
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Reged: 07/01/04
Posts: 790
Loc: Pasco, WA
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Quote:
Rapid Robert said:
...ok I'm only building one.
Thats how BRD manifests itself. Any details on your new build?
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DAWG IT (verb) - To play an entire season of a sport and remain completely defeated.
Taking fish to the afterlife...
"For you catch your next fish with a piece of the last"-Oliver Wendell Holmes, 1894
JOIN CCA
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Rapid Robert
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Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
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Reged: 03/08/02
Posts: 3902
Loc: Selah Wa.
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Kinda on the lines of the K16 that John(Skyguy) bought from Mark(Fishhog)...16" SS Bull Barrel, but it'll be fluted.
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Bob Barthlow
www.riversnw.com
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Dogfish
Offline
Ultimate Egg Whore
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Reged: 01/03/02
Posts: 4237
Loc: McCleary, WA
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Nice hand grenade ther Mark.
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"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"
Be like Big Stick!
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fishhog
Offline
Mining for steel
Profile Status:
Reged: 12/15/03
Posts: 5627
Loc: Whatcom
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Shoulda never sold that gun to John
But she's in a good loving home
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Stay thirsty my friends
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martyj
Offline
fry
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Reged: 07/21/09
Posts: 6
Loc: Ne. USA
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Double tap the trigger to the chest and then go for the thigh (femoral artery). Just in case of body armor. They will stop.
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archy99
Offline
Chromer
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Reged: 09/07/05
Posts: 796
Loc: Everett, WA.
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I know I'm late getting into the fray here, but are you serious about your stance there Nick? If you are using anything more than a rubber bullet, you ARE using a lethal round. Every gun eduacator and lawyer in the country would agree that when you pull that gun free of leather, you have made the decision to kill the individual standing there. To do anything less than approach with lethal force at that point is irresponsible, and to try to sort out whether or not that individual had a tough go of things is equally irresponsible...to you, your family and the next family that WILL be involved after you let the criminal go.
Breaking into a house indicates a willingness to go much farther than "egging" a house...it indicates that the safety and property right of others mean nothing. That is not something to be taken lightly.
As for finding a guy standing in my hallway, once I have identified him as none of my family members, he'll be receiving a half dozen small Priority parcels of 00 Buck. I should be able to then further identify the indivual by the light of his smoldering chest hair and clothing. Should he be so high that the buckshot was somehow not quite enough, he'll be happy to know that the next six will be 1-1/8 oz slugs. End of story.
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Beyond this, where there is no memory, the countryside lies vacant. -Indra Kagis McEwan
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