Gooose
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So let's imagine that there is a river system in this state that has a wild winter steelhead run that is by anyone's account healthy and robust. Get's enough spawners every year to fully saturate every bit of spawning habitat.....and has been doing so for the past 20 years that we know of. Oh and let's put it in southwest Washington where there is no tribal treaty right just to eliminate that issue from the discussion. Habitats great also from mouth to headwaters....it's all in a national park so no farming, no timber harvest, no mining, no dams, no housing developments and no polluting industries. No hatchery fish planted in it.
So should a catch and take fishery be allowed on those fish? Consider that use would be controlled and limited by special access permits similar to special big game hunt drawings so everyone in the world wouldn't be able to pound it to death so that issue is not on the table. Hmmmmm the fished portions regardless of whether or not it was cnr or cn-eat would also be rotated so no portion of the river could be targeted repeatedly by anyone.
Simple theoretical situation.  Please read the above several times before responding. I'm kinda interested in some reasons why in any responses.
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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IsoIchthus
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Leave it alone.
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buxndux
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If nobody had been fishing it and it was doing this well, I would put it up for a trial basis of say 5 years. If the returns are still good then by all means continue. If the runs decline enough to warrant concern then shut it down.
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Team JACE
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Marty
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How is run health defined and monitored.. does the winter run your planning on targeting have a A B or C run? or are they lumped together to form one happy return because A was heathly enough to saturate the grounds. Provided there is no harvesting of mass destruction (could be any harvest practice) by all means open the fishery. But if this is the last one and we need a control stream to monitor other fishing regions I say leave it for natural study baselines.
Are you shocked 
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Marty
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SKYGUY
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As much as I love the idea of fishing that scenario, leave it alone. Study the hell out of it to help turn our other rivers into a fertal environment, but leave it alone.
Please, do not mention this again! I'll be having hook setting dreams for weeks now.
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TwistAround
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C and R only, no bait, single hook-barbless, no motorboats
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nate
currently targeting inshore redfish and flounder, and fishing the surf for sharks. nightstalking crappie nightly.
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Gooose
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Not in the least.  The run is one big healthy one.  Let's say there are a few other healthy similar runs elsewhere just for discussion's sake. So let's just concentrate on this single theoretical system. 
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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stehlydan
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Leave it alone. CNR is the only way to make sure that all the fish that enter the river for spawning complete their life cycle. Look at the Puget Sound fisheries for instance, there used to be a catchable amount of small creek native steelhead. There aren't anymore. Look at the Skoakomish water system. Before the dan that now makes up Lake Cushman, salmon in the hundred pound class were caught. My personal opinion is that our watersheds should look better when we leave, meaning picking up a piece of garbage, cleaning the boat lauch of debris, releasing that wild steelhead into it's natural habitat. I guess what I'm trying to say is, we have already done so much, leave them alone.
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Marty
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and the other runs that spawn and die provide a healthy nutrient food base? Is there another system we can use as a study stream? I would like to hear more studies on nutrient cycles in the stream. I have seen a system black with nutrients change to almost barren. The escapement went down drastically too. I am wondering if the nutrient supply was cut off before reaching the system. I digress..
I am for harvest if the nutrient base and escapment is maintained.
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Marty
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Marty
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Dan is there a cnr river in this state that has rebounded to escapment goals? Where is the over harvest coming from.. seals?
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Marty
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Gooose
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Twist if the harvested numbers were such that they would not have any and I repeat any affects on the vitality of the run then why only cnr? Let's say we only allow 100 catch-n-keep permits on a run of 10,000 fish? Plus limit the disturbance impacts on spawners and kelts from fishers by allowing only 5 trips per permit holder to achieve their catch. I should also state that my theoretical fishery model is not to spread the wealth of being able to fish opportunity by allowing cnr fishing. It's to provide a high quality fishery that might allow take or not as a permit holder could just fish all of their 5 days and choose not to punch a fish. But they would be off the river after 5 trips.
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
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Index Hooker
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sounds like your river would be located in the land of Oz gooose.
if Oz was my home i would have to say leave the river alone and open a season on those dam flying monkey that keep shiteing on my clean car.
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Gooose
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Stehlydan the focus of this discussion is to discuss my question seperate from all of those other comparisons everyone points to. That's why I set it up that way...pointing at those issues doesn't apply. So why only cnr if those items aren't part of the discussion?
Hmmmmm there were 100 pound chinook in the Skok? You sure you aren't wanting to say the Elwha?
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
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Gooose
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Pete's it a river that only exists for the purposes of this discussion. If you see flying monkeys on it you're welcome to harvest them or not.
So back to it. The history of the Puget Sound river runs does not exist for this discussion. Tribal issues and foregone opportunity doesn't apply. Habitat degradation doesn't exist. Can anyone get out of the loop of all the other ongoing arguments on this issue and discuss it based on the scenario I present?
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
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AuntyM
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Quote:
So should a catch and take fishery be allowed on those fish?
In a perfect world, yes. But since we don't live in a perfect world, NO!
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Gooose
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Please this river doesn't exist in our imperfect world so let's try to try to discuss it as I have presented it. So under the elements I have given could anyone present a logical and reasoned basis for their opinion of how to manage this fishery in a perfect world? Please...anyone?
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
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Index Hooker
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arrrr, kill'em all captian.
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IsoIchthus
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Please this river doesn't exist in our imperfect world
Then this discussion is a waste of time.
posts++;
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Gooose
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Hmmmm so eliminating all the old tired dead horses from the discussion so we can get down to discussing the heart and core of the issue is a waste of time? That's what I've attempted to do.....sorry but it's called a discussion asking for reason and logic. Sticking to dead horses uses neither. 
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
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Fishingjunky15
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"C and R only, no bait, single hook-barbless, no motorboats"
 
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They say that the man that gets a Ph.D. is the smart one. But I think that the man that learns how to get paid to fish is the smarter one.
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Gooose
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Sure but why? There's only gonna be a total of 500 fishing trips and a maximum of 1% direct fishing mortality on this big old fake perfect river. Worst case would be another 1% from indirect causes. So why those restrictions? Any scientific reasons? I'm really waiting to hear some? BTW some of you may be wondering....I haven't bonked a nate steelhead in about 12 years or somewhere around that.
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
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H2H
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Special access permit would be the thing to do.
Other countries run there fish programs this way why can’t we?
Have a drawing to fish the river.
Draw for section of the river.
Have sections mark off, fish one section one day then you have to move to a different section the next day.
If you want CnR pay a certain prices.
Catch and kill one fish only, with a set number of fish annually, pay a certain prices.
No motors!
No bait!
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Brian
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Quillback
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I have always liked the idea of a permit system, permits to be drawn by lottery, each licensed angler can only buy one lottery ticket so everyone has an equal chance. Catch and keep allowed as long as it's a number that the fishery can support and still thrive under.
Permits assigned by day, only X amount of anglers per day that can fish anywhere on the river, if it's flooded out on your permit day, that's too bad.
Of course once word got out about this secret river, poaching would become a serious problem so the permit system would have to raise enough money to provide the necessary enforcement presence. I would also recommend serious fines for anyone caught breaking the rules.
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I'd rather be fishing
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Trouthead
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This seems to be similar to a managed hunting reserve. I think Homer and Quillback have good ideas. I would probably add "no boats at all". A lottery drawing with no repeats, once you have drawn a ticket you can no longer apply. Kill one fish per person total, 5 trips max. per person, catch fish or not. How much per ticket? I'll buy one. Oh yea, about the poachers, hire Guido and company cause your going to need them.
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Trouthead
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TwistAround
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gooose, i say c+r because, if such a stream existed in western WA there most certainly would be poachers. if those of us who stayed legal always released our catch than the small amount of fish that could be taken, without hurting the run, would be taken by the illegals. bodies on the river=a certain amount of illegal behaivor, unless your stream has 16' concrete walls with razor wire and armed guards policeing every inch of the stream.
in the mountains of NC i used to fish c+r rivers all the time that held their own fish and never had to be stocked(trout not steelhead) and there was always a healty amount of fish to be caught. most everybody i met on the stream respected the rules and enjoyed the fishery, but a few times i saw people walk out with full stringers and huge grins. when i spoke to a game officer a few days later he said if he caught someone doing this he would bust them to the fullest extent that he could, including taking the truck/gear. but he said that since its a c+r stream the take of the poachers that dont get caught doesnt really hurt the fish population
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nate
currently targeting inshore redfish and flounder, and fishing the surf for sharks. nightstalking crappie nightly.
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Gooose
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Good reply Twist! I suspect there would always be poaching even with 16 foot walls and razor wire. Poachers these days have been known to even raid broodstock holding ponds at hatcheries. No way for me to exclude human behaviour from the scenario....but using the permit fees to pay for a full time river warden as I suspect they do on many rivers in Europe would help control it. CNR would be the choice of the permit holders. Homer I knew this one would attract your attention.
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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
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H2H
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I know, I couldn't let this one go by without adding my .04!
This issue has been talk about for the last two years on Steelhead and Cutthroat Policy Advisory Committee (SCPAC). I’ve talk with guides who fished in Russia (Wild Salmon Center) about this and they have some good ideas on this issue. That area over there sounds like what Quillback is talking about! Some studies they have done deal with motors on boats, after running across a section of river several times there catching ability goes down. When they just float the section it doesn’t change. That’s why I said no motors.
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Brian
Edited by Homer2handed (07/01/04 07:52 AM)
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AuntyM
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Cute ideas, but we don't currently have these options. So until we do have pristine, perfect rivers and a better management system like what is suggested in place:
Release all Wild Steelhead and don't be swayed by warm fuzzy "what if's" 
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http://www.ccapnw.org
Deficit neutral, the new "big lie"
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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H2H
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Now Now Aunty M,
This is Fantasy land where talking about!
Bye and Bye I going out to Westport Monday for two days of gear fishing now that fantasy land, it be along time since I used a gear rod!
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Brian
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AuntyM
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H2H, You will learn. We will corrupt you and make you one of us yet! Good food, good beer, pleasant company... you'll be dragging bait down rivers in no time. And LOVING it!
Oh, and I don't want Gooose lulling us to sleep with HIS fantasies.  (Mooose ears for Gooose!) 
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http://www.ccapnw.org
Deficit neutral, the new "big lie"
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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