Eddie
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Straight cut and paste from PP. Well, we all survived the hearing in Bremerton. My informal tally showed that 59 people spoke in favor of retaining the moratorium and 19 against. The written testimony provided to us by the Commission showed 163 For, 75 against. Nobody can say this hearing was done outside the light of day!!!
A number of random thoughts:
1. Most importantly, it was great to meet and converse civilly with Cowlitz Fisherman, Todd, Hairlip Angler, Salmo G., Aunty M & Caveman, and TRBO - Bob Ball.
2. No fisticuffs!!! Only two people shouted down by the audience for trying to exceed their 3 minutes - Ramon from Washington Trout and the Mayor of Forks.
3. Real civility and respect for the opposing viewpoints. The one exception (maybe minor) was the City of Forks lawyer who threatened a lawsuit. But hey, he's a lawyer (Sorry Todd). I wonder if the City of Forks realizes the pretty major PR blunder in labeling all who were for the moratorium as urban elitist fly fishermen??
4. The most memorable line of the day from an Aussie guy talking about the science that the WDFW staff presented at the outset. He said it was not science, it was statistics and "Statistics are like bikinis, what you can see is pretty interesting, but the good stuff is hidden".
5. I was disappointed in Clint Muns of the PSA. I believe that Clint is a good advocate for the Sportsfishermen and that PSA is a good organization (especially Grandpa's chapter). However, they are on the wrong side of this issue IMHO.
6. Even though it was an overwhelming showing by the Pro moratorium forces, like George Orwell said in Animal Farm - "Everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others". I believe that the NWIFC written testimony will carry tremendous weight. It does give new context to the infamous "backroom dealing" that we began with back in February.
7. I thought both sides did a generally good job of presenting their cases (note the caveat about urban elistist, yada,yada, yada). It always takes courage to talk to the Commission. My thanks to all who chose to get involved.
8. I was surprised that there were not more anti-Moratorium folks at the meeting. Certainly by looking at the heat generated on this subject, I expected more of the Antis.
For What It's Worth: Here is my testimony to the Commission. Nothing really new here but it completes my recording of the day's events.
Director Koenings, Deputy Director Peck, & Members of the Commission,
My name is Ed Scherer and I am representing myself. The challenges facing Wild Steelhead are numerous and well documented. Habitat, Harvest, Hatcheries, Hydro, and History are factors that have been discussed in a more scholarly fashion than I can do in these 3 minutes. Addressing one of those H’s, harvest, through this moratorium is not a “silver bullet” however, it is a step in the right direction.
The beauty and uniqueness of this fish has been described far more eloquently in both print and voice than I ever could. That testimony can stand on its own. I will take a more practical path.
I submit that there is really only one question to ask if we are serious about keeping our Steelhead resource in this state. That question is “Do you believe that hatcheries are the answer to a declining steelhead population and will offer certainty of a continued run of fish?” If the answer to that question is anything other than “Absolutely, 100% and I have the science to back it up.”, then you must take whatever steps you can to protect the gene pool that Wild Steelhead represent.
Fifty years ago and longer (or so I am told), there were strong runs of Wild Steelhead in most rivers of our State. We have seen great declines. Now we are down to arguing about 12. My perception is that the single most devastating reason for those declines is loss of Habitat. Of all the H’s, Habitat is the one that will take the greatest amount of capital, both financial and Political to solve. If we find the will to tackle the Habitat problem, we must then have a gene pool of Wild fish to reseed those streams with. For me, that is the single, most persuasive reason for a Statewide Moratorium. The gene pool is too valuable and a real rainy day fund for the future if we have a prayer of restoring the Wild fish to its previous abundance.
I ask the question again - “Do you believe that hatcheries are the answer to a declining steelhead population and will offer certainty of a continued run of fish?” I submit that no reasonable person can answer that with the 100% certainty that is required if we are serious about Wild Steelhead Recovery. With that in mind, I urge you to continue this moratorium and take steps to make it permanent.
-------------------- "You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman!"
RP McMurphy - One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
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AuntyM
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Thanks for the update Eddie. I'd like to thank you once again for your eloquence as a speaker. Your delivery is impressive. 
I know we should have stayed till the end but Caveman was anxious to go buy his bulldozer (that he is now out in the yard tinkering with.)
I sincerely hope "IF" the letter from NWIFC has an impact, that it will give us sportfishermen an opportunity in the future to use that as a bargaining chip during North of Falcon etc. If the tribes can tell us what to do with our half, surely we should be able to tell them what they can't do with theirs. Like outside commercial sales of steelhead. If this letter sets a legal precedence, I'd love to take advantage of that.
-------------------- Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
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Cowlitzfisherman
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Re read what is said in the boldt decision and then tell us how you are going to stop the tribes from selling wild steelhead!
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AuntyM
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CFM, that's not quite what I said. Basically, the tribes have no legal right to force us to consult with them before changing our fishing regulations. Todd already told you that.
Using their own phony claim against them at NOF seems appropriate though.
-------------------- Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
http://www.ccapnw.org
The Monster Breathes!
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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Cowlitzfisherman
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Aunty
Todd is not the law...even though you may think he is! and I believe that he is wrong.
Here's one good reason why the tribes will challenge the commissions actions...and win!
Straight from the Boldt decision!!
Quote:
171. The anadromous fishery resource is both perishable and renewable. Thus, while an over-harvest would impair its renewability, an under-harvest during a limited time it is available would result in an irreplaceable waste of the resource. [Ex. JX-2a, § 2.1.0, p. 47] In addition to being wasteful, over-escapement of fish on the spawning ground can impair the renewability of the resource by causing a condition called "superdeposition" where the last fish that comes in and spawns either spawns directly over the first brood of eggs that were in the redds, or digs them up. Superdeposition can destroy eggs outright and also increase the susceptibility to disease of the eggs remaining. [Tr. 859, l. 21 to 860, l. 15] Salmon and steelhead frequently spawn in the same areas of the various river systems. [FPTO § 3-453]
Now if this goes to a federal court (which it must).....who do you think would win?
How could the commission defend its position that the sport fishers share of over escapement would not cause such damage to occur?
Game over!
Edited by Cowlitzfisherman (08/29/04 09:59 AM)
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AuntyM
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I think it should go to court, and I hope it does.
-------------------- Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
http://www.ccapnw.org
The Monster Breathes!
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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Eddie
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CFM, you can't have it both ways - if WSR kills steelhead through hooking mortality then where is the wastage that would trigger foregone opportunity? If WSR does not kill steelhead through hoooking mortality, and thus triggers the wastage/foregone opportunity arguement, then where does part of the outrage from the anti Moratorium crowd come from? Let me turn it around, if the Hoh tribe decided to harvest fish through the use of a fish wheel instead of gill nets, would the co-managers have any say in influencing that decision? Would the co-managers prevail in a litigation (under the Boldt decision) disputing the Hoh's decision? As I have said before, I would love to see a court ruling on the foregone opportunity subject. In my mind, until the Courts rule, this is a bogeyman that can be brought up by anyone whenever they feel like it helps their cause. The fact that this has never been litigated in 30 some odd years shows me that there are real concerns (especially on the Tribal side) of being able to prevail on this issue.
-------------------- "You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman!"
RP McMurphy - One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
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AuntyM
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Not to mention that the race card being played by the tribes works both ways.
If it's rascist for us to make the tribes look guilty by WDFW taking a conservation minded approach, wouldn't the tribes be setting themselves up for rascism by claiming to also have control over OUR share of the resources?
Tribes need to ask themselves which scenario is likely to have the most adverse impact on them. My guess is that sportsfishermen and ultimately John Q. Public will be far more hostile if the tribes continue to try and dictate all fisheries policies for both sides.
-------------------- Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
http://www.ccapnw.org
The Monster Breathes!
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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Gooose
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Uhhhhh Eddie you do know that the Hoh tribe is de facto excercising foregone opportunity on the Hoh River for wild winter steelhead? They have harvested approximately 67% of the annual calculated Total Allowable Catch each of the past 2 years and again by agreement with WDFW will do so this coming season. Call it anything you want but that is Foregone Opportunity. No bogeyman dream there....just reality. The same occurred on the Quillayute system in the early 1990's when the Quillayute tribe asked Curt Smitch then director of the Dept of Wilflife for the unharvested sport allocated share of wildfish in the Quillayute river system....he granted them that share. No bogeyman dream there....again just reality. The precedents have most certainly been set as to its reality.
-------------------- Independent Advocate For The Fish
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There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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AuntyM
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Quote:
he granted them that share
Key word, granted.
-------------------- Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
http://www.ccapnw.org
The Monster Breathes!
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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Cowlitzfisherman
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"Key word, granted."
Keep on dreaming people!
Gooose knows what's about to befall upon us! Thanks Gooose for being so damn honest!
-------------------- CCA Your Best Bet For The Fish
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Gooose
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Actually a request is pretty much a formality.....if the state didn't grant the request the tribe could just go ahead and take it. The state could then appeal to the "special master" assigned by the federal court to hear and resolve issues arising regarding implementation of harvest plans. It wouldn't likely go to a federal court hearing as last I heard the Supreme Court said they are done with the issue. I forget the latin phrase they use...maybe Todd could help out on that? As I've stated before the only way it would get to the level of a federal court is if there was a new issue such as an ESA listing involved.
In a special master hearing they would only look at the data for that particular river and fish run. If the issue was the Quillayute River there would be no consideration of what has occurred elsewhere such as the Skykomish or the history of steelhead management. It would simply be an issue of what WDFW and the tribes estimate as available for harvest and what is not being harvested. It is very unlikely that parties other than the tribe and WDFW would be allowed to participate in the hearings or decision. Words such as awesome fighting fish, beautiful, superb, fabulous, worldclass and such would not be considered in the decision. 
I really wish I could have been there to hear that Aussies bikini comments.....gotta love the way they put things. I've heard a few myself from my Aussie scientific counterparts. 
I believe it was Mark Twain that said...."There's lies, and there is damned lies, then there are statistics." ....or something similar. The same identical statstics can be used to say exactly opposite messages by opposing parties. Welcome to the world of science ruled by human opinion and emotions.
Sorry if this is not appreciated by some but it's the way things actually work.
-------------------- Independent Advocate For The Fish
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Simple Solutions to Complex Problems
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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Cowlitzfisherman
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steelie
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Very good analist Gooose!
-------------------- CCA Your Best Bet For The Fish
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Eddie
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CFM, I'm going to pray that was a typo and not some kind of Freudian Slip!!!
-------------------- "You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman!"
RP McMurphy - One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
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AuntyM
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Too funny!
-------------------- Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
http://www.ccapnw.org
The Monster Breathes!
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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Eddie
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And it had to be for Goose, just to make it worse
-------------------- "You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman!"
RP McMurphy - One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
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AuntyM
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True. But he has one of those appreciative sense of humors (warped)
-------------------- Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
http://www.ccapnw.org
The Monster Breathes!
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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Eddie
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I don't know Goose at all, I was just thinking of his moniker as a verb.
-------------------- "You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman!"
RP McMurphy - One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
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AuntyM
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Uhoh! He will forever have analist linked with his moniker now. 
Good thing he isn't the sensitive type!
-------------------- Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
http://www.ccapnw.org
The Monster Breathes!
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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Cowlitzfisherman
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When you post as much as I do....you make a few spelling mistakes! The funny thing about this was I used this boards spell check and look…....what happen 
From now on, I will use word 2002 to check my spelling!
But you all got the message anyway, and that's all that counts!
The rest is like playing that you are the teacher instead of the listener. My bad.
Aunty/ eddie ...is that your best shot? Why not address the issue instead of a spelling error? Lets get back to where you guys don't understand how the legal system really works!
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Quillback
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Must be something in that Cowlitz water..
-------------------- I'd rather be fishing
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Cowlitzfisherman
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steelie
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Yep...its called knowledge It will become contagious once you drink it!
-------------------- CCA Your Best Bet For The Fish
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AuntyM
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We like to have light hearted fun instead of tear each other down on Steelheader.net. We were teasing.
This topic has been beat to death. The Commission will make their decision, so until then, there is little left to say in my opinion.
Edited by AuntyM (08/30/04 04:37 PM)
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Gooose
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Thanks CFM .....methinks that one's gonna haunt me for awhile. Yes I admit it my sense of humor is warped. BTW Eddie no comment regarding my moniker .
-------------------- Independent Advocate For The Fish
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Simple Solutions to Complex Problems
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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Eddie
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Bob, I was having fun at your expense - my apologies if you feel I took it over the line... However, on topic, I was curious to get your answers to these questions that I asked you yesterday:
CFM, you can't have it both ways - if WSR kills steelhead through hooking mortality then where is the wastage that would trigger foregone opportunity? If WSR does not kill steelhead through hoooking mortality, and thus triggers the wastage/foregone opportunity arguement, then where does part of the outrage from the anti Moratorium crowd come from?
Also, I was interested to hear your feedback on the post I made Saturday regarding what I saw as a PR blunder by the folks from Forks. But, hell, I'm a fisherman - take your time, I'm patient.
-------------------- "You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman!"
RP McMurphy - One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
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Gooose
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Eddie I can answer that question. WSR which btw has been practiced by many including myself has a mortality rate that takes only a portion of the sportfishers TAC on the Quillayute or Hoh. The remainder is what the tribes have in the past taken under foregone opportunity and is what they might take in the future. On the Hoh for instance the combined mortality rate from harvest and cnr fishing is estimated to be around 33% of the combined TAC for wild fish available for both the tribe and the sporties. With 100% WSR that estimate should go down as long as user trips do not increase. If use increases then eventually the mortality rate would climb back towards and even possibly exceed that 33% figure. Does that clear things up for you?
-------------------- Independent Advocate For The Fish
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Simple Solutions to Simple Problems
Simple Solutions to Complex Problems
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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Cowlitzfisherman
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steelie
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