Hairlipangler
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2 salt
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Reged: 07/22/03
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Loc: Pierce Co.
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Gooose, what do ou think of the statement made by a DFW employee that says the Department is of the opinion that fish in a cnr fishery that are hooked and released more than once have survival number at about 50%.
This is unverified on my part. But it comes from an honest man.
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'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have.' - Thomas Jefferson
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cupo
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cookin' reels and killin' wading boots
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Quote:
Hairlipangler said: The previous laws were adequate to manage the runs properly.
If previous laws were so good then how come the number of rivers with "harvestable" steelhead has dwindled to almost nothing? How did the runs ever make it without us to "manage" them? There isn't enough data out there for the bios to say how many fish we can kill. They can only guess. I'm not knocking them, that's just how it is.
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This can't be healthy. All this fishing is really messing with my head.
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Gooose
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There is that school of thought amongst several bio's who I know who also are long time steelhead fishermen. It is unsupported by published data. Those fish have only so much energy stored to make the run against all odds and spawn. Each time we hook and play and release one of them it takes away a bit of that energy. Compare it to a series of boxing matches. First one you win....but you're tired. Second win you might barely win but you're dead tired or you might die because you have no energy reserve left. Think you might win a third? Intuition tells me that yes the mortality rate is very high. Personally I think that if you also included factors for failure to develop viable gametes and inability to compete successfully for optimum redd location or mates and other similar factors then yes the effect of cnr fishing is nearer to 50% than not. There are a lot of factors affecting steelhead that have not even been studied yet. There's been a lot of interesting discussions regarding these issues lately. I've been hearing rumblings that the fed's are very interested in doing viability of spawner studies on cnr'd fish. Might a suggest the upper Hoh or Sol Duc for those studies? 
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Independent Advocate For The Fish
Not Represented By Any Organization
Simple Solutions to Simple Problems
Simple Solutions to Complex Problems
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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Hairlipangler
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Loc: Pierce Co.
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"If previous laws were so good then how come the number of rivers with "harvestable" steelhead has dwindled to almost nothing?"
It's not so much that they are or not, good laws, or management practices. More that with or without accurate information(run size estimates/ect.), the previous system has been proven successful when favorable conditions exist, and not so when they dont exist. Not consistant. Could there have been good and bad cycles for a long long time?
Which leads to your next question cupo. "How did the runs ever make it without us to "manage" them?".
Is it possible our management efforts do not have near the affect as other unknown factors? Who's to say they didnt have good cycles and bad, just like they may now. Hey, this stuff is fun to talk about, but I'm no biologist.
Bottom line....There are known factors like over-harvest, allocation, incidental by-catch, habitat, water flow, temps, ect., ect., ect.. Those are areas that we can and need to work on. None of which are affected or aided by a statewide blanket resolution to stop sport harvest.
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'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have.' - Thomas Jefferson
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Quillback
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South of the Mason/Dixon line
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There seem to be a lot of unknowns out there, and even the Bio's are reduced to making educated guesses, that's been one of my issue about WSR, will there be research done afterwards to see if there is an impact on steelhead populations? But if there hasn't been any data gathered before the moratorium goes into effect, how can anyone make comparisons? And as Goose says money is needed to fund research, and I don't see any being allocated for that purpose.
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I'd rather be fishing
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Cowlitzfisherman
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steelie
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Reged: 07/02/03
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Loc: Cowlitz River near Toledo WA
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There are so many unknowns that it's like reaching into a hat to get your answer! That's why this moratorium should not continue. Rest assured, no matter what happens from Thursday on; the special interest groups will continue to attempt to have the wild steelhead fishery to them self's.
One has to ask; why haven't these groups come up with the needed money to find the real answers to our declining wild fish runs? The answer is simple, they don't really care about saving them as much as they do about playing with them. If these special interests groups "really cared" about saving wild steelhead in the OP rivers they would have demand that the state immediately stop allowing any killing of these species. But no, instead they have only pushed for a statewide c&r fishery, so that they can continue to fish while the rest of the sport fishermen stop.
I challenge one single WSC member or any other special interest group to explain why not one single one of them had testified at this past Saturday hearing to close all harvest and the killing of wild steelhead Statewide! Not one single person made any such request! Why not?
There are posters here, who were at the Saturday hearing, and I make this challenge to every single one of you who had the opportunity to pick up a free copy of the public commits that had been submitted to the commission to either rescind or maintain the wild steelhead release moratorium. I haven't read every single word of the commits as of yet, but the many that I have read who made written commits to "keep the moratorium in place", all wanted a c&r fishery to continue, and NO WHERE have I seen a single one of those people recommend that all fishing be stopped to save this wild specie. Please, don't take my word for this people, just read the commits that these people have given to the commissioners.
In my opinion, they are nothing more then a bunch of hypocrites! They all gave speeches on how wonderful and magnificent these special wild fish are, and that they "must be saved".
Yet every single wild steelhead that they catch has a very high percent of dieing, especially if hook again after being released. What's wrong with these special interests user groups? Is it OK for them to kill wild fish because once they release the fish, they don't see it die…. so that is ok? But when they see another fishermen take is fish home, he becomes a bloody wild fish killer with no respect for wild steelhead? Like I said, please step up to plate and defend your hypocritical position of why not one single person who supported the moratorium stepped up and asked the commission to close all methods of fishing, be it c&r or whatever to protect the all wild steelhead …with no exceptions!
I am all ears people, so bring it on…or is my "tone" to mean for you some of you to step up and answer?
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CCA Your Best Bet For The Fish
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AuntyM
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Looking for a few good fish!
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Quote:
I challenge one single WSC member or any other special interest group to explain why not one single one of them had testified at this past Saturday hearing to close all harvest and the killing of wild steelhead Statewide! Not one single person made any such request! Why not?
Because hatchery steelhead are available for harvest. My personal opinion is if hatchery steelhead are available in harvestable numbers, it should be open unless there is sound scientific reason that wild stocks can't support incidental hooking mortality. I don't represent anyone else's viewpoint, including the WSC. Just my opinion and I don't have to back it up or argue with you why I feel the way I do.
You might want to tone down the rhetoric and name calling. (hypocrits)
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Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
http://www.ccapnw.org
The Monster Breathes!
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008 
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H2H
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TWO-HANDER !
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Goose wrote:
“There is that school of thought amongst several bio's who I know who also are long time steelhead fishermen. It is unsupported by published data.”
With that said, when water temps (I watch water temps pretty close) are down I with my own eyes have seen the same Hatchery Steelhead caught 3 different times in two days. Then seen it caught a week later, how do I know it was the same fish while someone put a paper punch in the tail and some net marks on the fish (kinda like a tattoo).
Thanks Cow for the new name “hypocrites” (I bet you know where that’s going).
PS Do I have to tell you guys/gals that this fish was caught buy a Fly Fishers!
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Brian
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Cowlitzfisherman
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steelie
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Loc: Cowlitz River near Toledo WA
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Aunty
You need to calm down and understand what people are saying. No one is blaming you or anything like that. One must first understand what certain words mean, without taking offense to their usage. In this case, the word "hypocrites" is exactly the proper word usage that was the appropriate word to use. Please don't get mad when a word is used as it is defined by our scholars.
In this case, this was the proper English to use. When one checks its definition, it is not only used correctly, but it was also the proper English language to use. When used as I have used it, it is clearly the proper word to have used.
Example:
Hypocrite: A person given to hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy:
1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
2. An act or instance of such falseness.
Can you please take the time, without being hostel, mean spirted, or being rhetoric, to explain why this was not the proper word usage to use?
It is a "fact" that wild steelhead release (wsr) kills wild steelhead at rates as suggested here, as much as 50%. So can you please explain, without making unfounded personal attacks, why this word was used improperly? If a person knows that their method kills fish (be it less then other methods) why on earth would one support its killing if you really and truly wanted to save it? Just because one method of fishing kills less, while the other may kill more, both are still killing wild steelhead.
Thus the proper usage of the word "Hypocrite" was used
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CCA Your Best Bet For The Fish
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AuntyM
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Wrong again. I don't kill wild fish.
And yes, it IS personal. You've trashed 2 boards already with your so called discussions. I'd hate to see you get away with it here.
It's a dead horse and you're only looking for new victims.
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Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
http://www.ccapnw.org
The Monster Breathes!
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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Hairlipangler
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2 salt
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Reged: 07/22/03
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Loc: Pierce Co.
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Well , so much for civility 
I dont want to cause any problems here, and these are issues we need to discuss.
So...nice chattin with y'all.
Come on by, kick yer shoes off.... and stay a while.
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'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have.' - Thomas Jefferson
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Cowlitzfisherman
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steelie
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Loc: Cowlitz River near Toledo WA
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It tuff sometimes in life when your are shown to be wrong time after time and you have nothing else to stand on.
But…what the heck we are both only human Aunty so what can we both do! If I get kicked off Marrty's board for being very truthful and very polite, with people such as you, so be it.
I wish you the best Aunty and hope that no one else removes you again from their board either. How many times have you been booted? I got booted only once for telling truth, and nothing but truth, so be it! Others get booted for doing other things Aunty. I will share my email from the only board that booted me for telling the truth. Will you do the same?
Let's all see what the commission does tomorrow, and then we both can go on from there…fair enough?
Have great night Aunty, and give old cave man big huge for all of us! No hard feelings …OK
Sorry Aunty. It's not personal with me….sorry that you have such a problem talking with sport fishermen.
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CCA Your Best Bet For The Fish
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Gooose
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I don't care who said what or implied what....this thread could be locked in a heartbeat or you all can discuss these issues without one single reference to another poster. Discuss the issues but leave the personal stuff alone. Do I need to make it more clear than that? 
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Independent Advocate For The Fish
Not Represented By Any Organization
Simple Solutions to Simple Problems
Simple Solutions to Complex Problems
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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H2H
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TWO-HANDER !
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While Gooose
I thought my BIRTHDAY meant something to these guys/gals!
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Brian
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AuntyM
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Looking for a few good fish!
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Reged: 05/07/01
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Loc: Harstine Island
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Happy belated Birthday Brian. 
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Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
http://www.ccapnw.org
The Monster Breathes!
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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Gooose
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Ancient Mod
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Loc: Area 12
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Okay Okay you can say nice things to each other.....but don't push it.
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Independent Advocate For The Fish
Not Represented By Any Organization
Simple Solutions to Simple Problems
Simple Solutions to Complex Problems
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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AuntyM
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Looking for a few good fish!
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Reged: 05/07/01
Posts: 10190
Loc: Harstine Island
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Hey... I'll say any nice thing I want dear.
It's funny though. No one... except Marty EVER gave me an argument that would have changed many peoples opinion (and tempered mine) on WSR. Not sure why he didn't bring it up in public discussions.
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Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
http://www.ccapnw.org
The Monster Breathes!
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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