robA
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returning spawner
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First off i am posting this here cause i don't wanna ruffle everyones feathers like i would on one or two of the other sites..
Secondly there are a lot of guys who are better and more knowledgable than I am so take my opinion for what it's worth to you..
Thirdly i am human and that gives me the right to have an opinion 
OK here it is.. A lot of people spend a lot of time talking about ever stinking tiny little detail of spey casting.. This style that style, this line , that line this much grains , that much grains,, this amount of angle change ,that amount of angle change.. well here it comes are you ready for all it?? It's all a bunch of B.S.!!!!
Buy a line that does the job you want then buy a rod that matches that line, figure out how you want to learn to cast and have fun.. The idea you need a rod with a different action for every different line or casting stroke is just a bunch of hogwash.. you can take an xlt on a 12 foot rod using a short choppy stroke and cast it just fine, likewise you can take a shooting head on a 16 foot rod with a long flowing casting stroke and cast just fine that way..
all the super technical spey junkie talk is just a bunch of opinionated B.S.... and that's the truth.....
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REDSHED
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steelie
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Well said Rob!!!
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H2H
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TWO-HANDER !
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When where not fishing we have to talk about some thing.
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Brian
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Steelheader69
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Thank you Rob. My EXACT points I tried to make on a thread. Well said.
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TEAM JACKSON BALDWIN
Project Healing Waters
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Gooose
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Rob very well put!  
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Independent Advocate For The Fish
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Simple Solutions to Simple Problems
Simple Solutions to Complex Problems
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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Zo
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I guess to each his own, but me being the perfectionist, that I am, I want to spend a lot of time talking about ever stinking tiny little detail of spey casting.. This style that style, this line , that line this much grains , that much grains, this amount of angle change ,that amount of angle change...to me, this is "Steelheading".
Talking with a group of people (like yourselves) about what technique works for you, what tips your throwing and for where. Then spending x-amount of time looking said river up on the internet from topos to fishing reports. And if my fiance and the good lord willing, I'll make a trip to said river. Whether I catch a fish or not is irrelavant (I enjoy catching, and love to fish), it is the commrodery and thrill of the hunt,and all the other macho-killer-instinct that is ingrained in all of us to some degree that cranks my chain.
I agree, some or most of the above may be impractical, but it is "Steelheading", GLs or PNW it is still "Steelheading", Chuck N' Duck a nymph or swinging a spey...yup it's still "Steelheading". I will never critisize a man's fishing technique or his doq, because...
To each his own.
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Alonzo
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Steelheader69
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Zo, the point Rob was getting across (and I was as well on another board) is that a Steelheader doesn't have to know every little aspect of the rod/lines makeup. Some of the best steelheaders I knew (fly and gear) could tell you the make and capacity of their outfit, that's about it. I think too many get into the nitty gritty over details when they could be out fishing (I'd much rather be out on the river then stuck in the house as I am now). My definition of a Steelheader is someone die hard who is out fishing steelhead. I know quite a few guys who can spout off every last spec of flyrods and lines, but are only marginal fisherman. Preaching is one thing, practicing is another. When I started spey fishing, I didn't get into it for show, or some higher form of fishing. I saw it as an excellent tool for flyfishing certain areas that had been a pain in the past for me. Found it to be an excellent tool, but is NOT meant for every aspect of my fishing lifestyle. I fish from a boat alot, and found one handers fit "me" better there. From the banks, especially tight ones, I found the spey to help me out. Plus, learning to spey cast, trickled over to my one handers (thanks to Fred and his insights in the past). I love working a speyrod, but I don't dwell on them. I'm out there to fish, not the tackle I have handy. Steelheading is about fishing steelhead, tackle to me is just a means to an end.
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TEAM JACKSON BALDWIN
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robA
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returning spawner
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Yes to each their own.. the only problem is that a beginner comes along and reads all this stuff and gets totally confused or worse yet misinformed. I'll say this when it comes to learing about spey casting the net is ok.. However for learning how to cast or what gear to buy the internet sucks!
One thing I would say about information gained off the internet.. Buyer beware,,,
and um sorry but shuck and duck... ahh well for the sake of the forum i won't go there
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williegunn
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king
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Opinions are like @rseholes everyone has one. (unknown)
In Scotland we take our spey casting seriously, the world champion for the last couple of years is Scottish, BUT it is just a method of fishing, just a way of getting the fly out to where the fish are. There are two casts you need,single and double spey with either hand up. The rest is just patter.Snake rols, snap Ts, only used to impress the wee lassies watching.
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Malcolm
<")////<
Edited by williegunn (12/01/04 01:18 AM)
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Steelheader69
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Oooo, that's true Malcolm. The ladies do go "ahhhh" over a finely thrown spey cast. I know my girlfriend fell in love watching me, and picked up my extra rod and started doing it herself. Mine wasn't finely tuned. Wonder what would've happened if I was really good at it? LOL
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wiser?
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otter
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I'm not a spey caster or even much of a fly angler but I feel the "super technical spey junkie talk" is much better than calling anything negative opinionated B.S.. Saying it's not necessary is one thing, calling it opinionated B.S. would be akin to slamming half the content of most posts about rods, reels, egg cures, boats, techniques, etc.. Might as well say anything more than a rod, stout line, cork and gob of eggs for salmon fishing is opinionated B.S.
This is an area to share techniques and ideas, not a place to call others ideas opinionated B.S..
Still think mom was right when she drummed into me "If you don't have anything nice to say" .... you know the rest.
The opinion there are anly a couple things required to effectively spey cast is certainly a valid opinion, I just have a problem with the name calling associated with it.
Guess it could just be me. I don't agree this post was "well put" at all. Just my opinion, of course.
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Kerrys
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steelie
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Quote:
Steelheader69 said:I know my girlfriend fell in love watching me, and picked up my extra rod and started doing it herself.
I could have a field day with this statement.
I agree Rob. But as other have said what would we do when the river is blown? What would we talk about in the truck when heading up to the blown river? Ask Homer what I think of all of this line stuff. I still say it isn't the tapers that we splice up that turns the line over. It is the 15 foot of lead core on the end that does it.
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just another steelheader
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REDSHED
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steelie
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Quote by Kerry: "I could have a field day with this statement."
Good one Kerry!
I like all the "tech" talk, for myself. I've learned a great deal about spey casting but for the new guy it seems it can be pretty confusing. From fishing the "junkyard spey" I know that a good time can be had fishing with some pretty crude tackle. As Rob says, it should be about fun.
The main issue I have with some of this "spey casting dogma" is that it is presented like it was written on stone tablets and brought down off the mountain by a man with a long beard.
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Steelheader69
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Funniest thing of all Kerry, your "field day" would probably be true too.
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Zo
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Far be it for me to act the expert, because I AM a beginner. I don't think I have fished my spey rod more than twice, and I have cast it on about 10-12 occasions. I have found the Internet to be a VALUABLE resource...regardless of the qulity of information. Even the worst information is good, 1) an observant person can pick up on the BS pretty quick 2) its a good heads up of what NOT todo.
All the tech. talk and Opinionated BS is either/or, someone who has done something that has caught fish and choses to share the information with others. What you do with it or say about it after words puts it into either catagory. No one is obligated to utilize it or implement it into their repitoir (SP), Nor are they asked to tear it to shreds.
My BS detector is going full bore when I get into something new, but I listen to EVERYTHING. Then I test and try and fiddle and change until I consider another variable or get bord.
I think what the point of this thread is, is that there are two basic fisherman (of course there are extremes), those who couldn't give two farts about what head will work best with which rod, all they want to do is get outside and experience mother nature in all her glory. If the fish-gods see fit to bless said fisherman with a take...woo hoo.
The other fisherman looks to utilize all of his resources to maximize his experience outdoors. I agree, an idiot/status seeking person would spend the money on the next best thing, but a true fisherman will want to understand as much about his choosen quarry and weapons at hand. And if the fish-gods see fit to bless him/her with a take...woo hoo.
I find EVERYONE's opinion helpful, yeah, opinions are like...uh..., but you shouldn't make excuses for it (either one) and no one should ridicule or apologize them because you should no better than to expect everyone to be just like you.
I think I'm  Cheers.
OH, BTW, I haven't caught steelie on the Two Hander, but I let me bro-in-law use it on his trip to the Kalam, and the dirty SOB caught 34" native hen! HE CANT EVEN CAST THE THING VERY WELL!!! He is the only one I will call BS on with re: to his technique. You don't catch the 1st fish on another man's new rod, you just don't, its bad Ju Ju.
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Alonzo
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Black_Ghost
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KISS and have fun.
Forget all this dark technical spey abyss stuff I am three years into it now. Get a windcutter and some tips matched to your rod and fishing situation and have fun and be more productive in your fly fishing, thats what its all about. BTW, my first line for my spey rod was an old SW WF sink tip which I cut and put my own Deep Water express heads on and you know I could cast it, I caught fish, etc.. Fished with that for 10 months than got the RIO WC.
Although I will be reading the new Spey casting bible book soon, just to throw a fancy cast out there once in a while for the 1-2 fisherman that may be around, you know impress them, not the fish thats for sure. LOL
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
Edited by Black_Ghost (12/01/04 11:26 AM)
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Steelheader69
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Zo, for myself understanding my "tools" is knowing how to use them. I don't dwell that much into the finites. Knowing the grains on the rod isn't going to help me put the fish on the line. Working the line will. I've been spey fishing about 5 or so years now. When I started, couldn't cast it to save my life. BUT, I was able to get the line out enough and work it and catch fish with it. Takes more then casting to catch the fish. Understanding the fish and how to present your offering is as important, if not more, then just the dynamics of casting. Just prettier looking while your casting if you know what you're doing.  I know I had some very successful years steelheading with the fly, and had NO idea what I was doing casting. But once I got the mending down, and how to work the fly, it upped my catchrate. When I got casting down, just made it easier to get the line out. Hell, had a friend who was taught by an FFF instructor to throw a fly rod (not a spey). Can't catch a fish to save his life. But he can sure throw a pretty line. I look like someone having a spasmatic attack, but I can work the fly and catch fish. LOL.
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TEAM JACKSON BALDWIN
Project Healing Waters
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fredaevans
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Gad Zooks! I'm off the board for 24 hours and it goes to heck in a hand basket. :>)
Actually, a proper match up of rod and line (especially for a newbie) is all important. (And a non-paid advertisement here for Burkie spey rods...) I've two, the 7wt 13'6" spooled with a medium head 7 wt airflo (also excellent with the 6/7 xlt) and the 8wt 13'9" spooled with a 7/8 xlt. The two rods are my ONLY choice to hand to a 'wanta-be' spey caster to teach them the basics. (This includes my two grandsons who've never held a fly rod in hand in their life.)
The choice of rod/line is all important (personal opinion here) in getting someone 'into' this type of equipment. New caster having trouble .. odds on they've got a rod/line that's not suited to their 'style' of casting ... beginner or experienced caster.
To the very good casters (don't count me in on that one) it probably doesn't make a heck of a lot of difference. Too the rest of us, it makes a heck of a lot of difference. I've got something like 14 different spey rods; some of which haven't seen a line in two or three years. Why, they don't match up with 'my style' of casting .. and I really don't want to dump another $75 bucks for lines to 'keep testing.' For someone else, they'd probably be the cat's meow.
All the more reason to go to a real spey shop such as Redshed, Aaron's place in Carnation, Spey 'Claves, etc., where you can actually test cast combinations of rods/lines/etc.
If you have/get "the bug" spey fishing is a VERY expensive 'lady friend.' (And no, I'm not going to touch the great one liner above ... but God do I want to??!!)
"...Get a windcutter and some tips matched to your rod .." Here Hal, I'd have to disagree with you on line choices for 'a beginner.' A great line, but for a 'newbie' ... he/she will learn too many 'bad habits' in casting .. especially if 'self taught.'
Fred
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Fred A. Evans
Edited by fredaevans (12/01/04 03:33 PM)
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Zo
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silver
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Quote:
fredaevans said:
... disagree with you on line choices for 'a beginner.' A great line, but for a 'newbie' ... he/she will learn too many 'bad habits' in casting .. especially if 'self taught.'
Ahhhhh, shhhhhhooot, chaulk it up to inexperience, iguess.
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Alonzo
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Steelheader69
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LOL. Zo, I know exactly what Fred's talking about. You learn more from a longer belly line. I found from my limited experience that the short heavy belly helped correct some of your mistakes. But then when you moved up to more of a longer belly, your cast would fall apart. Now, if you only planned to use the WC's, you'll be fine. I found I liked using the longer bellies. Well, that's until I blew out my back/shoulder and couldn't cast a flyrod anymore. LOL.
But funny, here I was mostly self taught, with some help from friends who knew how to speycast. I had a few speys, and was trying a couple different rods out. Girlfriend liked it, grabbed the spey rod, and was outcasting me instantly. LOL. Was trying to figure out the longer bellied lines. She was zipping out a WC (she's a natural with flyrods). Now, my next step. Putting a real fly on and having her cast it. She's awesome with a practice fly. Once she knows the real thing is in there, she gets skiddish. LOL.
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H2H
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I jump in with both feet going different direction when I started with a spey rod. I bought Sage 9140-4 (remember the old handle on this rod) with a Windcutter 9/10/11 I went out and had trouble with it. When two friends saw what was happen with the line they cut it up BIG TIME, I ask them what are you guys doing and they said trust me on this. Since then I trusted them on there opinion on anything to do with spey rods and spey lines period!
I learned a lot from those two guys, one thing I’ve learned from them it’s a lot easier to cast a short belly line (3 times the rod length not more then 3.5 times the rod length) then a long belly line! These two guys are on the cutting edge of spey casting in the PNW with designs of new rods and spey lines and types of spey casting!
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Brian
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REDSHED
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steelie
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You are a very lucky guy to have those two friends!
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Black_Ghost
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Well Fred I had 41 years of single handing casting experience before I bought a spey rod, so I would not consider myself a newbie to fly casting. It wasn't rocket science to grab it with two hands and start doing simple casts.
So what line do you recommend for a spey new bie ?
I even used a SA Head Start line for several months on the spey rod before the wind cutter was bought and it worked well enough.
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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robA
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returning spawner
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Brian
Sage is an awsome company and the whole flyfishing industry is indebted to them but some of their earlier spey rods were umm well i'll just say, I don't like them..
the reason your two friends had to cut up the line , well there are two reasons but i am sure their reasonong had largley to do with the fact that they couldn't get the 9140 to perform the way they wanted it to with a longer bellied line. in my opinion this speaks to the incabability of that rod not the need for shorter line..
A well designed spey rod should cast every line on the market designated for that size rod and it should cast them all well.. any rod that doesn't simply isn't a well designed rod.. The idea that you need a different action rod for short heads VS long heads is absolutely Bogus there is no truth to it whatsoever..
when it comes to a line for beginners here is what i say..
if you just wanna fish get a wind cutter... if you wanna kearn to cast get a salmon double taper.. I think the windcutter is a great line to learn on BUT!!!!!!!!! you are going to have to refine your technique as you gain skill because it will hide numerous casting faults which will become very apparent when you start throwing a longer belly line..
line choice just depends on how you want to fish and what kind of caster you want to be..
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fredaevans
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"Now, my next step. Putting a real fly on and having her cast it."
Jerry, she will find this to be a 'whole new ball game.' Casting a small chunk of fluff vis a vis an acutal 'fly under water.' Actually, this is where you find out the differences between lines on a given rod.
On Rob's comment above .. I have 'production rod' #4 of the "old" Sage 9140-4's and still love the 'traditional action' of this rod. But his point is correct: a long belly/long taper line with this rod could be a 'DE-Sas-Ter.' A medium length head line (if two line ratings, take the higher one to match the rod .. maybe even drop down one with a longer head line.. ) could be a good combo given the deep loading of this rod.
And another great "nod" to the Burkie rods; if it says it's a 7 it's a 7, an 8 it's an eight. Can't say that for many other rods; some I've found to be at least THREE 'line weights' off from whats pasted on the rod (example: One of Bob's new 16 footers was designed to be a '7-8-9,' loaded/fished best with a 9-10. Quite a difference, but then it was a Proto and that was the point of giving the equipment a REAL work out.)
"A well designed spey rod should cast every line on the market designated for that size rod and it should cast them all well.. any rod that doesn't simply isn't a well designed rod.. The idea that you need a different action rod for short heads VS long heads is absolutely Bogus there is no truth to it whatsoever.."
Well.. think this statement is a bit over-kill ... but still a lot of truth to same. Ergo, back to the GO TO A spey 'clave, etc., and test drive some combo's before you drop the 'big bucks.'
So what a re 'big bucks?' Will by time you purchase a 'high end' spey rod, ONE line, and a reel to hold same ... you could be in close to $1,000. (No shxt!)
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Fred A. Evans
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Steelheader69
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Re: My opinion on the whole spey thing
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