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River Fishing >> Steelhead and Salmon Fishing  

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Leadslinger
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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: Hilo]
      #16291 - 07/17/02 01:42 PM

The basic equation that WT offers is incorrect.
Fish hatcheries = declining wild fish runs.

Eliminate hatcheries and the wild fish rebound.

This is a more accurate equation

Environmental factors + hatcheries=harvestable hatchery numbers and declining wild fish numbers.

spend all the time you want and provide all the expert testimony you want to point out the flaws that hatcheries have.Win all the arguments about the perils of evil hatchery fish and then we can remove the hatcheries to arrive at the new equation which will be:

Environmental factors - hatcheries = no harvestable hatchery fish and declining wild fish runs.
NOT Eliminated hatcheries = Abundant wild fish runs(next century)

Sorry guys you cannot eliminate envirnmental factors,including nets,from the equation and get an accurate picture of the situation.You ARE completely ignoring a major set of factors in your thesis that hatcheries are a major cause of wild fish decline and need to be eliminated.

You want to ague that you haven't put forth a thesis?Please address Goose's question regarding your point 3 and 4,from the press release on the lawsuit,please.like environmental factors you have failed to argue these MAJOR points.

As for attacking anyone for asking questions regarding the hatchery thesis,if I recall from my high school science class,a thesis is to be questioned from all angles as part of the scientific quest for truth.Sophmoric for an educated type to attack this principal and introduce name calling into an otherwise civil thread.


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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: Leadslinger]
      #16292 - 07/17/02 02:01 PM

Leadslinger that nailed it dead center [Big Grin] ! Right on the money for what WT is doing, the failure to address points #3 and #4, and the "casting of the first stone." This thread has pretty much clarified that us fishers are not part of the equation as it is being presented by Washington Trout. Thank you Ramon and Waldo. My apologies to all for "casting the last stone." Now on to find all the feathers I lost as Gooose lost more than just a few in this discussion [Eek!] !

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Fish Jesus
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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: Gooose]
      #16293 - 07/17/02 03:14 PM

Well know...I'm just going to stand in the corner then! [Big Grin]

4Salt...I guess I should have put a little Salami and mustard on that Rye! [Wink]

FJ...out.


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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: Fish Jesus]
      #16294 - 07/17/02 03:17 PM

[Roll Eyes]

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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: fishinSinsation]
      #16295 - 07/17/02 03:21 PM

[Razz] welcome ....uhhh uhhh "member" [Eek!]

[ 07-17-2002, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Gooose ]

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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: Gooose]
      #16296 - 07/17/02 03:33 PM

Geez Peckerwood even the old version 3.1 of LurkerNet figured out your real identity [Roll Eyes] ! I'll keep the secret [Wink] !

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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: Gooose]
      #16297 - 07/17/02 03:46 PM

rammon, do you know of any studys that have been done on puget sound wild chinook that show over the years how much damage the hatcheries have done to these fish, both genetic and man made ?

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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: boater]
      #16298 - 07/17/02 04:05 PM

haha, iam not trying to hide anything, otherwise id have changed my avatar.. its pretty clear who i am, [Wink] [Roll Eyes]

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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: fishinSinsation]
      #16299 - 07/17/02 07:32 PM

Boater I think we blew them out of the water. Still waiting for their responses to my questions regarding items #3 and #4. I suspect we have unveiled the truth too much for them to stand anymore in the light of day. Gosh I hope my sophomoric high schoolish name calling didn't offend them...their name calling didn't bother me? [Roll Eyes] [Wink] [Big Grin] [Razz]

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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: Gooose]
      #16300 - 07/17/02 08:33 PM

Leadslinger's post got me thinking for whatever reason about the bait ban thread, I bring it up in this conversation because I wound up with a completely different understanding of the complexity of the issue after going back and forth with stlhdr1. At first the back and forth was pretty emotional but after we each examined the merits of the others arguments we came at least to an understanding, if not an all out agreement.

Man, no one loves to fish more than I do. Its almost a sickness, we've talked about it, its like an addiction. I certainly don't want to lose that privelege (sorry GGR folk, insert 'right' if you'd like). I've sacrificed hours and hours of time (years really) trying to become a better fisherman and I would hate to see all that time, money, energy and effort wind up being flushed down the toilet along with that of the thousands and thousands of avid fishermen in the PS region (apparently along with my credibility?).

I did enter this conversation to learn something and give myself new things to consider when thinking about this ridiculously complex issue.

I have stated that I would give up that privelege if it came down to a question of saving wild fish from extinction. This statement is far too general. Each river is treated differently and it is not likely that all or a large number of these fisheries will be shut down all at once, or that the wild fish in the entire state listed as threatened or endangered. It seems much more likely to me that individual fisheries would more than likely be shut down than any kind of blanket closure due to the loss of hatcheries. Back to gooose's reminder of that hot little biology teacher I had in seventh grade, no wonder I remember her predator/prey relationship lectures. Those closures could increase pressure on those rivers with stronger runs of native fish and that would be counterproductive. Any of you peninsula guys remember some of the days on the Sol Duc and Hoh a few years back...23 trailers at Morgan's?? I just blamed the internet at first but then realized that there were pretty serious PS are closures at that time.

In the end I am left pretty much right where I was at the beginning of this conversation. Knowing that our states hatchery practices cause harm to wild fish, the extent of the harm it causes is extremely difficult if not impossible to ascertain. That leads me to the question what can be done about it? This is where I take issue with the WDFW. They need to conform to the law just as the citizens of this state are asked to every single day. What mechanism exists then to affect that compliance with the law? There are a sad number of options. Litigation, referendum…what?

WT I applaud your activism and stance on protecting wild fish but I have to say that I am still confused as to what to the long term effects of a large scale closure of hatcheries (one possible, likely even, outcome of this suit should it get that far). If what results from this filing is the state getting off their asses and figuring out some solutions to specific and readily identifiable problems within the hatchery system than we should all get together and smoke a victory cigar. Fruition of this filing into a lawsuit that leads to judgement is a potential nightmare for everyone. Closed PS rivers and increased pressure on wild fish everywhere else in the state is certainly one potential outcome.

Brings me right back to bait ban…stlhdr1 and I resolved that each of our fisheries needed to be considered individually when managing for the protection of wild fish. In rivers where the wild fish have been impacted to the point of even their existence being questionable why not bust out with cookie cutters and lets go fishing! And in rivers where the chance to save the wild fish genetics does exist than those rivers should be managed for their protection even if it means closing some hatcheries. All well and good right? Nope, also too simple. To make these kinds of determinations would cost an enormous amount of time, effort and money in research alone. Personally I think it is worth the investment but politically its not likely to fly very high on the priority list especially when faced with a lawsuit that has the potential to severely impact an already depleted budget.

In the end I hope that WT are successful in forcing the state into action, and by action I mean a meaningful plan to bring them into compliance with the law. Should this filing turn into a federal case that effort would have been unsuccessful and a whole new can of beans opened, one which the majority of fishermen/women would just as soon stay closed. I am willing to bet you that the state has this figured out and will threaten to let this go all the way (bluffing) knowing WT will have to back down. Another loss for wild fish and further complexity introduced.

All that’s left for me to do at this point is to reconcile my passion for catching wild fish and the functions of nature that support their existence with my desire to catch the damn things. That’s all…its really not that complex at all…

Ironic that what I learned from the thread that got me booted from the other board helped bring this conversation home for me…thanks Keith!!

All right gooose –

…I’d like to know what I said or how I offended you so I can apologize for it…

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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: stlhdh2o]
      #16301 - 07/17/02 09:03 PM

No need for an apology H20....just try to learn from your mistakes as I do. Analyze yourself sometime....I do it all the time. Peace and just be phucken careful which knife fight you wander into as what we just experienced even when the discource was cordial was nothing but that...a knife fight between different beliefs.
As to specifics to consider the reference to my beliefs in ESA and the Spotted Owl was the fuse. Your getting all puffed up when Waldo the socalled expert was present was the charge. Your impying that my beliefs were contrary were the detonation. You have tucked tail now...but what about next time? You want my respect for your intelligent questions? Well I demand the same respect. Need I go further? As to being the first to infuse the discussion with sophomoric name calling I suggest you reread the thread...Waldo sure showed his professionalism early on?

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stlhdh2o
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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: Gooose]
      #16302 - 07/17/02 09:46 PM

Okay dude...lets do this right...without the posturing.

...your post is a little disjointed but I will try hard to put it together

I am not tucking tail. It wasn't a knife fight. You nor anyone else has or will win. The only guarantee is that wild fish will probably lose (Edit: What? I said I guarantee you....probably.)

There should be no shame in carrying ill will toward the ESA and spotted owl for the serious effects it had on your life. In asking that question I was probing the psychology of your position to determine what could be driving the obviously emotional responses to my questions. I wanted to understand gooose, damnit, not incite anger. I didn't see how that question was offensive and in retrospect still don't, but man, I'm sorry if that hit a little close to home. Pretty goood inference for someone who isn't an -ist though, eh?

As for puffing up...which post, where, after Waldo said what?? I'm confused...if we are thinking about the same post (the one with unanswered questions and then more questions) if you only knew how long it took me to put that post together you'd know there was no way I could have read Waldos post before posting my post, (Anyone for some post raisin bran) believe it or not. I was extremely busy that day and jotted down the questions as they popped into my head, ex POST facto...

Accept my apology and agree to move on, without a declaration of victory?

Read my above post and tell me gooose that I don't look in the mirror and examine and reexamine my beliefs every single day, at the end of the day again as Todd put it way earlier in this conversation you and I wind up being a lot closer in terms of opinion than either one of us would readily admit....

[ 07-18-2002, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: stlhdh2o ]

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fishinSinsation
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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: stlhdh2o]
      #16303 - 07/17/02 10:03 PM

way to go h20.. didnt think id see that happen..

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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: fishinSinsation]
      #16304 - 07/18/02 01:28 AM

Good points leadslinger - Can't ignore the environment the fish are spending their lives in.

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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: Quillback]
      #16305 - 07/18/02 03:13 PM

Close enough Eric [Big Grin] ! Peace! BTW my logging career ending had nothing to do with Spotted Owls or ESA....it had all to do with the realization that as much as I loved it I wasn't going to physically be able to make a career of it in addition to my desire to pursue a career working in ecology. Peace and lets move on. [Big Grin]

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boater
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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: Gooose]
      #16306 - 07/18/02 03:32 PM

well, uhh, i realy would like to see the plan if it comes down to closing some hatcheries to fix others, would you realy be able to pick the ones in the worst shape and just say "close them, they need to much money to rebuild" ?, i would think that a study should be done that shows what hatcherys have the biggest effect on neighboring rivers as far as gene flow is concerened and they should be closed if it does come to this, why close a hatchery with no effect ?, does wt have a plan for that

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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: boater]
      #16307 - 07/18/02 07:22 PM

Actually Boater WDFW is in the process as I understand of evaluating all their hatchery facilities in regards to ESA, cost effectiveness and needs for changes. Maybe thats why NMFS has not called them on their socalled noncompliance...they are trying to come with a plan...just not fast enough for some maybe? I also understand that they had requested around 10 million in funds to start rebuilding hatcheries to meet the needs of the future. Think it died due to the state budget cuts.

Oh well..I would not expect to see anymore responses from Wash. Trout and their supporters as they must feel like Custer [Wink] ! Still I join you in wishing to hear their plan for the future of our fisheries other than to sue to get their way. [Big Grin]

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It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain

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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: Gooose]
      #16308 - 07/19/02 01:27 AM

WT's plan is to have our rivers full of wild steelhead and salmon, spawning in clean rivers running through old growth forests, being fished for by fly fishermen wielding single barbless hooks and of course all fish caught must be released.

Now I think all of us would support the idea (dream) of having rivers filled with wild fish, but reality intrudes in the form of endless urban sprawl and the demands of mankind (water use, power generation, dams) placed on Puget Sound rivers, I still fail to see how closing hatcheries will fulfill this dream.

I still say: "A hatchery fish is better than no fish."

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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: Quillback]
      #16309 - 07/19/02 03:10 PM



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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: boater]
      #16310 - 07/20/02 07:15 PM

Boater and Quillback check out a group called "Long Live the Kings!" Anyone want to know what the state, feds and tribes are doing in regards to all 100 hatcheries in Washington check out the same. Simple search did it for me.
Click on the Hatchery Reform button. This group of respected scientists say hatcheries have a very important place in salmon recovery and can do it quicker and cheaper than alternative methods. Sorry I'm a novice at this puter thing so you'll have to do the search to see it all....tons of good stuff. Looks like someone wasn't sitting on their hands after all! [Big Grin]

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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain

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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: Gooose]
      #16311 - 07/20/02 09:06 PM

Someone was trying to make the needed changes instead of making excuses for why the changes have not been done? Someone saw the impact that poor hatchery policies were having on wild populations and tried to instigate changes instead of being mired in the status quo of historical false understanding?

Or was someone looking for a cheaper more “politically expedient” solution like all that has lead up to the situation we have now?

Someone is always looking for the “silver bullet”, what a shame… [Roll Eyes]

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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: POS Clerk]
      #16312 - 07/20/02 09:11 PM

And have you read the book "Making Salmon" POS my friend? Especially Chapter 8? Many avenues are available to the ends we desire...mine includes the fishers. Think about it...hope you read that book? [Big Grin] [Wink]

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It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain

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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: Gooose]
      #16313 - 07/20/02 09:36 PM

Did it have lots of pictures? Those are the kind of books I can understand, you know, no big words or complicated overlapping issues that require thinking on my part. [Roll Eyes]

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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: POS Clerk]
      #16314 - 07/20/02 09:36 PM

Also POS have you looked at what that group has been doing and what they propose to do? Looks pretty good to me! Dogmas and religious beliefs are inherently part of the problem that got us here...I'm willing to let ones that include me and the rest of the sportfishing community a chance to be part of the solution a chance to work...the other solutions we are seeing are a bit to "Luddite" for my tastes. [Big Grin]

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"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain

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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: Gooose]
      #16315 - 07/20/02 10:03 PM

Yeah go to making fun of my posts POS...read the book...it's not very friendly to any of this....sorry you chose to respond in that way,,,kinds of disappointing....well larger minds will hopefully prevail.
[Big Grin]

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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: Gooose]
      #16316 - 07/21/02 07:15 AM

so we have 18 hatcherys that block wild fish from moving upstream, seems logical because you need to stop the hatchery fish somehow or they also would keep going all the way to the end of the stream so my question is how do you take these barriers down and still stop the hatchery fish ? soos creek on the green is a prime example, take the barriers down and what stops the hatchery fish from swimming straight up stream ?

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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: boater]
      #16317 - 07/22/02 01:08 AM

So, is the WT thread members banquet still on?

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NOTE: We've sold out of our inventory of books. Watch for the 2nd edition, sometime this year. Thanks! ... btw, there are still a few of the books left at the Guide Shop (Tillamook) and Bob's Outdoor (Longview).


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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: RT]
      #16318 - 07/22/02 04:28 AM

Looking at things from another perspective we might note that:

"The Hatchery Reform Effort Moves Forward"

"The goal of recovering wild salmon stocks was given a boost recently when the Hatchery Reform Project released its first set of recommendations on how to reform hatchery operations in three regions.

The Hatchery Science Review Group - a diverse panel of independent scientists established to develop the scientific framework to guide hatchery reform programs - wrote the recommendations. They took a close look at tribal, state and federal hatchery operations over the past two years, using the best available science to recommend ways to restore wild salmon runs and produce fish for harvest. The recommendations, announced at a news conference in February, varied from area wide to specific recommendations for individual hatcheries.

The Hatchery Reform Project is a systematic, science-driven effort to address how hatcheries will be used to achieve their goals while helping to recover and conserve naturally spawning salmon populations and support sustainable fisheries.

"We are confident that by working together we can achieve our goal of returning wild salmon stocks to abundance," said Billy Frank Jr., NWIFC chairman. "Reforming hatchery practices is another step on the road to wild salmon recovery."

But, no matter how well a hatchery is run, it will never replace the real thing. "It's only one part of a big puzzle. Hatcheries do not take the place of habitat. They never have, never will. We need salmon coming back to our rivers and streams," said Frank.

Hatcheries will no longer be judged on the basis of how many fish they produce, said Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife Director Jeff Koenings. Instead, they will be judged on the basis of how many adults return to a river system.

In locations where wild salmon stocks are depressed, their recovery can get a "jump start" from a hatchery that spawns the wild adults to boost a new generation of fish, Koenings said.

"The Hatchery Reform Project is the first time anyone has taken a big-picture, systematic look at the Puget Sound and coastal hatcheries," said Rep. Norm Dicks, who shepherded funding for the project through Congress.

"By moving ahead with these reforms, the states and tribes will not only go beyond the Endangered Species Act's requirements to minimize hatchery impacts, they intend to help us bring back the wild salmon," said Sen. Patty Murray.

Congress first funded Hatchery Reform in 2000 due to concerns - following the ESA listings of several local salmon stocks - that hatcheries were having a detrimental effect on salmon runs.

After looking at the hatcheries on the Strait of Juan de Fuca, South Sound and the Stillaguamish/Snohomish watersheds, the review group will visit three more regions starting this year. "Only a comprehensive plan can balance all the related, complex interests, such as tribal treaty rights, sports fishing and conservation," said Dicks

In addition to Hatchery Genetic Management Plans being developed for each tribal facility, projects are also being funded through the Hatchery Reform Project to improve how hatcheries perform. Nineteen tribal hatchery reform projects were funded this year."


From: The Northwest Indian Fisheries Commission Newsletter - winter 2001/2002

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

I can only discuss to this issue as a layman but it seems obvious that hatcheries have both positive and negative effects to consider in relationship to wild salmonids.

The current trend in science is to brand hatcheries as evil destroyers of wild fish but it seems to me that this is not altogether true.

Some contributors here have mentioned several undeniably negative effects that poorly managed hatchery operations might have on wild fish. It seems that the negative image they have constructed might be tempered with a look at some of the positive aspects of proper hatchery operations and the benign effects that they and the fish they contribute to the ecosystems provide.

Hatchery produced salmon, including the hybrid and inbred ones, can contribute positively to the numbers of wild fish and to the wild genepool.

This can be seen from the introduced Skamania hatchery stock that has established itself as a viable stock of wild steelhead in the upper South Fork of the Stillaguamish River where no historic stock of anadromous fish existed. This is just one of many instances where fish barriers have been removed to open new habitat now populated with wild fish of hatchery origin.

Another "benign to wild" contribution can be found in the heart of Metropolitan Seattle. The first sockeye were introduced to the Lake Washington drainage in 1917 with the planting of 19,700 fish of unknown origin. From 1935 through 1945, a total of almost 2,700,000 sockeye of mixed Grandy Creek origin was introduced to the Cedar River and Issaquah Creek. Another 576,000 Grandy Creek sockeye were introduced to Big Bear Creek in 1937 and 41,000 to the "main body" of the lake in 1942.

Another strain of sockeye from Cultus Lake, BC in Canada was introduce to North Creek (23,655) in 1944 and into Issaquah Creek (59,613 total) in 1950 and 1954. Another nearly 4,000,000 sockeye of unknown origin were planted from 1977 through 1979, mostly in the Cedar River.

The Grandy Creek strain was developed from a mix of Baker River, Quinault River, Yes Bay and Afognak Alaska hatchery strains creating in the Lake Washington ecosystem a most remarkable melting pot of introduced hatchery salmon. A melting pot of mostly wild sockeye with an achievable spawning escapement of 3,500,000 salmon.

Those are 3,000,000+ wild sockeye that would not exist without the benefit of hatcheries.

Another less local example of benefit is the multitude of wild and hatchery salmon and steelhead in the Great Lakes, an integral part in another ecological melting pot.

Might I mention the introduced hatchery trout living wild in Patagonia… the very fish that Michael Darland, a staunch supporter of WT, utilizes in the operation of his lucrative fly-in fly-fishing resort operations? These introduced hatchery fish provide entertainment for not only Mr. Darlands exclusive guests in his Argentine and Chilean operations but also for anglers of every description from around the world.

An unbiased fisheries biologist could certainly cite many further examples of the benefits to wild fish that hatcheries provide and even a layman can see that these benefits are best preserved through orderly hatchery reformation including the minimization of the less desirable characteristics.

It simply makes the most sense to maximize the benefits to wild salmon and mankind while minimizing the amount of harm.

Legal action to close hatcheries will not provide remedy that insures the proliferation of wild salmon and may in fact cause more harm than good. At best it draws attention and hopefully better funding for the issues surrounding salmon prosperity. At worst it absolutely wastes resources better deployed elsewhere or in the case of wholesale hatchery closures may cause the absolute extinction of some salmon stocks preserved only through hatchery efforts.

An excellent example of a waste of resources can be found in the previously mentioned litigation focused on the Tokul Creek Hatchery. The work WT has done to insure temporary passage above the barrier dam the past couple of years is commendable and will surely result in a permanent solution to the problem despite the lawsuit.

More importantly, The Snoqualamie chinook population is rebounding irrespective of the Tokul Creek deficit relegating provisions for passage there to icing on the cake.

Another quote from the NWIFC Newsletter - winter 2001/2002:

" For chinook salmon in the Snohomish system, including the Snohomish, Skykomish and Snoqualmie rivers, the co-managers were able to achieve the highest escapement since at least 1965. Pink and coho salmon escapements were also at record levels in the Snohomish, with pink totals reaching almost four times the previous high. “Escapement” is the number of fish allowed to spawn in order to sustain a run at a desired level.

Snohomish chinook escapement for 2001 was estimated to be 8,581 spawning fish. The average number through the 1960s and 1970s was approximately 5,000 fish per year. Between 1980 and 1998 this number was not reached even once. Since then, the escapement has exceeded 6,000 in 1998, 2000, and 2001. The recent upturn indicates that conservative harvest management plans are allowing large numbers of chinook to spawn to propagate the species."


These fish are not in dire need of urgent litigation for remedy. They are rebounding nicely despite the blocked passage at Tokul Creek. Although I don't have numbers I'm quite sure from personal observation that Skagit River chinook are also rebounding in population. Perhaps it was unwarranted emotional haste to even list some of these fish as threatened. Perhaps we and the wild fish would all be better served by concentrating our resources in areas which provide the maximum benefit in a studied post haste manner.

In my opinion Washington Trout is expecting to much. We cannot remove every dam, close every hatchery, eliminate all harvest and recreate a pristine habitat like what existed previous to the appearance of European immigrants. I must say that such a dream does deserve to be savored as one relishes the sweetness of honey.

Sadly, it seems that we cannot live on honey alone.

[ 07-22-2002, 06:41 AM: Message edited by: Plunker ]

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Quillback
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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: Plunker]
      #16319 - 07/22/02 09:08 AM

Excellent message Plunker, WT would have us believe WDFW is doing nothing as far as hatchery reform, looks like from your message WDFW is in fact doing a lot of good work reforming hatcheries, it appears WT has been misleading - some would call it lying - us.

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Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing new [Re: Quillback]
      #16320 - 07/22/02 10:44 PM

Good stuff Plunker.

We discussed many things in this thread, but we never really focused on the root of the problem.

Humans are breeding too much.

The best way to reduce logging impact, hydropower impact, commercial/tribal/recreational fishing impact and the degradation of fish habitat, is if we stop increasing the human population. We need to restore the balance of humans to what it was before the salmon were in trouble.

Less need for trees, electric, land needed for housing, less pollution, less use of fish for food. Seems simple enough.

I propose we give 90% of all male babies a vasectomy (100% for WT members) for the next 20 years and see if that works. [Razz] Wonder if I can get a grant to study that? [Big Grin]

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