stlhdh2o
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Excellent post Plunker.
I have some concerns about this report and the 'independent' and 'scientific' nature of this commission. Doing a little research before I start casting aspersions... like looking for information regarding who funded the study, commission members and their histories etc...
Wasn't the eight million dollars Locke promises to set aside to address the issues in this report the funding that 'dissappeared', as gooose put it?
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RT
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Wow Aunty! Talk about hitting the nail on the head! That's it. (Pun intended) ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif)
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Steve Hanson
www.reeltruthfishing.com
(see 'RT's Insider Page there - occasionally)
NOTE: We've sold out of our inventory of books. Watch for the 2nd edition, sometime this year. Thanks! ... btw, there are still a few of the books left at the Guide Shop (Tillamook) and Bob's Outdoor (Longview).
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Plunker
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For stlhdh2o and anyone interested,
An excellent summary of the current work in hatchery reform including recent meeting summaries can be found at:
HATCHERY REFORM IN PUGET SOUND & COASTAL WASHINGTON
The Hatchery Scientific Review Group Policies and Procedures can be found at the following link:
Hatchery Scientific Review Group Policies and Procedures
AuntyM - You must know that all semblance of political order would quickly become chaos at the mere mention of sterilizing 90% of the male population... and will the remaining 10% be enough to harvest all those millions and millions of salmon this might create?
Can you imagine those new guys drinking alcohol free single malt and smoking nicotine free cuban cigars after a hard day "C&R"ing a couple million fish.
Hmmm... Perhaps a good old fashioned war is in order. ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif)
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Why are wild fish made of meat?
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stlhdh2o
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Free single malt alcohol and free cuban nicotine cigars...
Plunker -
Doesn't it concern you that the above commission was appointed by congress? Congress has been known to paint a glossy picture when future expenditures are at stake. Its worth mentioning that Republican administrations have showed a bias toward business interests over those of environmental concerns pretty consistently. How much influence do you think the Bush administration and its policies have over this review group?
I say that not to discredit the review group at all...just that they too, like the rest of us, may have an inclination to bend the truth to fit their arguments. Much like I think WT has in their claims against the WDFW.
Thanks for the links Plunker...and AuntyM. I'd actually read these before she posted them, I was encouraged then as I was after reading them again...my fear is that that is what they were designed to do, pacify me into believing they are addressing the issues...skeptical bastard that I am....
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Gooose
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Plunker thanks for posting all that and the links! Your working on really knocking down my inventory of big Flash-n-Spins...do you like the blue winged glows? As I pointed out there is a ton of information to see in those pages.
Are these scientists any less respected than the ones supporting WT and the Native Fish Society?
Will they be swayed in their judgement by politics and big moneyed interests? Read the information available and judge for yourselves. My judgement is that to question #1 the answer is no and the answer to #2 is I pray not.
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boater
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a few more studys here
[ 07-22-2002, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: boater ]
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Plunker
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H2O - You might wish to look at another Press Release from Washington Trout concerning another resource wasting lawsuit which cites the findings of the Salmon Recovery Scientific Review Panel and there criticism of the NMFS.
Any bias here seems to favor the position of Washington Trout.
[ 07-22-2002, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Plunker ]
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Why are wild fish made of meat?
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stlhdh2o
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Another cool link, there is a link at the bottom of the page that takes you to to the reports generated for each meeting...alot of meat here.
Thanks again plunk...this group appears to to operate pretty independently...the NMFS on the other hand....??
side note: I'll find out tomorrow but I think actually have dealings through my job with the science writer on the panel...I'll have to ask him if he's 'the' Richard Farr.
[ 07-22-2002, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: stlhdh2o ]
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4Salt
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[ 07-23-2002, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: 4Salt ]
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Ronco Pro-Staff
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AuntyM
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![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif)
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Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
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The Monster Breathes!
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008 
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4Salt
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Aunty,
I'm confused by your response. Was that non-serious, semi tongue-in-cheek question somehow inappropriate in your view? ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif)
Edit: Aww nevermind. I deleted my post above. No offense to anyone. My warped sense of humor gets the best of me sometimes.
[ 07-23-2002, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: 4Salt ]
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boater
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i havent even seen what the so called experts feel is the percentage of wild fish loss due to hatchery fish spawning with wild fish, havent seen the percentage of wild fish loss due to barriers at hatcherys, i have not seen anything but a bunch of, well, bull****. come on experts put up some facts, if you have them....for each of the 18 hatcherys would be good.
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Gooose
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Boater we all know that they can't give those answers...they don't exist. A religious Jihad doesn't require specifics....just generic citations of what they see as reality .
Just another tidbit to consider? At a recent presentation by two of the foremost experts on the Pacific Decadal Oscillation and its effects on fisheries both very respected scientists remarked that one of the worst things that could happen for salmon recovery is a loss or removal of the fishers from the equation. Hope those experts at Wasington Trout took that into consideration during their risk analysis?
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Quillback
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As you said Gooose, it's become a jihad for them, fanatics don't bother with issues like risk analysis or worry about complicated issues like funding, they just blow up everything in sight, and deal with the consequences as best they can.
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I'd rather be fishing
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Gooose
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Looks like they won't be back....pity ....there was so much "light of day" being brought upon the subject . So many unanswered questions?
Well a few at least....I believe we can all derive the answer as to where us fishers stand
in Washington Trout's equation for salmon restoration.
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Independent Advocate For The Fish
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Simple Solutions to Simple Problems
Simple Solutions to Complex Problems
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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boater
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gooose, they wont be back, they have no case
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POS Clerk
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More than likely they could give a rat’s backside as to what you or I think. It can be fun to bounce around various ideas on a Internet BB but I believe they do their real work in the real world.
POS Clerk
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Gooose
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Yes POS and without any backing from the fisher community other than a small handful of elitist flyfishers. Rats usually work that way. If their arguments can't stand up here...it will be real fun to watch them in court. The real sadness is that the salmon will die irregardless of their efforts....as the fishers will no longer be a political power..and thats what it comes down to. Please present an argument against that...please Pos? They answered none of our questions in regards to that and neither can you...except to say "trust us." Sorry this dialogue has served its purpose and pointed out the facts...and if WT proceeds with their agenda the risk to fishers and fish is very real....sorry you can't buy in to that. Finally I am really sorry that your rhetoric has been devolved to such a mean level...guess that points out so pointedly the extreme divisions that are hidden within the sportfishing community. Peace POS ...you and yours do it your way...the majority will do it our way.
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Independent Advocate For The Fish
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Simple Solutions to Complex Problems
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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stlhdh2o
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I believe I just distinctly heard the pot calling the kettle black...anyone else hear it?
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Gooose
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Yes you did H20...small world ain't it? So you got any more wit for us? You keep on biting at my ankles puppy dog....suggest you find a new profession or do we really need to get into it again? You know me from past experiences...ready any time ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif) !
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Independent Advocate For The Fish
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Simple Solutions to Simple Problems
Simple Solutions to Complex Problems
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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stlhdh2o
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I haven't the energy to bring the intellectual bludgeon to bear on your pathetic attempts at claiming victory in a conversation where you've already declared yourself there could be no winner...besides, it'd just be between me and your board buddies anyway...
glug glug
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Gooose
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Your such fun Peckerwood! And so intellectually witty! Please bludgeon me...please oh please?
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Independent Advocate For The Fish
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Simple Solutions to Simple Problems
Simple Solutions to Complex Problems
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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Thumper
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So what is a "Peckerwood" anyways???
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Jack
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AuntyM
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Peckerwood; noun; bird with strong claws and a stiff tail adapted for climbing and a hard chisel-like bill for boring into wood for insects
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Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
http://www.ccapnw.org
The Monster Breathes!
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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boater
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pos, i cant agree with your thoughts of the real world, if all scientists simply went out and all they did was studys to find out somthing was wrong and then quit, we would be screwed, they do studys, find out whats wrong and try to come up with a cure or fix, you tend to have come to a conclusion that nothing can be done with hatchery fish, show me on paper that there is no hope and every scientist has givin up on this issue then i will give you alittle credit with your finding but until then the conclusion you have come to is not valid, until every avenue has been tried to fix the genetic problem you cant say that nothing can be done exept close hatcheries, can you ? even bill bakke said that closing hatcheries dosent always mean the wild fish will recover, what makes you such an expert ?
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DanS
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Self-appointed?
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Dude......where's your rod??
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