Verne
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In your opinion, is a 15' 10/11 wt. rod too much for steelhead? Kind of like perch on a cane pole. Or is it needed to cast intruders and tubeflies at a distance. What do you think?
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Black_Ghost
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Too much in my opinion, 9 wgt 14 footer max for steelhead needed as I see it. Can throw anything I want on the one I have now.
Can't figure out why the Euro atlantic salmon fly fishers seem to prefer these heavy sticks myself.
My 2 cents on this.
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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williegunn
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A man's rod, standard tool this side of the pond. When fishing for antlantics in a big river like the Spey with a strong current and big deep pools a good big long rod is needed to control the fish and save drowning the line. In the summer when fishing for grilse(1 year at sea atlantics) average weight < 7lbs many anglers come down in weight to a 8/9 weight but still the 15ft legnth.
For the opening weeks I will use a 16ft minimun with a rating for 10/11 by May I'll come down to the 15ft rod still 10/11 but remember these are not the big fat Grandspeys XLTs etc but properly weighted lines, Carron, Partridge.
What weight Steelheads are you trying to catch?
Edited by williegunn (01/24/05 10:49 AM)
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Steelheader69
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Remember Hal, we're the home of the 30# steelhead here. 
No, not too much of a rod. Great winter steelhead stick. Especially throwing heavy tips. So no, not bad at all if you're fishing the westside of Washington.
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Black_Ghost
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Well we have lots of steelhead here into the teens and a few up to 20lBs but very rare. Heaviest you ever see here in the GLs for steelhead is a 9 wgt 14 footer and that would be used for our King Salmon also which go up to 30 lbs.
Most of the fellows are fishing 7 and 8 weight single handers here for steelhead.
Hey WG, what does "drowning the line" mean over there ? I think you are referring to losing the line to a big hot fish that we call spooling you ? Are we thinking a like here.
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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Verne
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The steelhead I catch average about 8 lbs, and often run up to 12 or 14 lbs. The biggest I have caught in 40 plus years of steelhead flyfishing was about 20 lbs. I love casting my speyrods, but am not impressed when not one average sized steelhead out of a dozen or so got into my backing. They nearly always get into my backing on a one handed rod.
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williegunn
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Drowning the line, is when the fish goes down and across the current then comes back up the other side of the current. In a big pool with a stong flow the line can still be going down as the fish is level or above the angler. Big U shaped -------drowned usually results in a lost fish.
With a long rod you can hold it high and keep the line out of the water.
In these days of C&R is a fair to play a fish on a light set up just to see the backing go out?
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Malcolm
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Black_Ghost
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Oh yes now I see what you mean. Yes longer rod is an advantage that way.
I have always gone lighter rather than heavier for trout, steelhead, and salmon fishing. Mainly because we are always using leaders less than 8 lbs in strength. But our rivers here are narrower, not as fast, and appear to be lower turbidity than those in UK or our PNW for the most part.
Caught several king salmon close to 30 lbs on a 9 foot single hander 8 wgt. Had to chase them a bit though.
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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Kerrys
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I use the "drowning" you speak of as a tool to tire the fish more quickly. All of that line bellied into the current is wieght against the fish. I really can't remember losing a fish because of it. Most fish I lose is very shortly after the hook up before any drowning takes place or when the fish is fighting close in after retrieving most of the line.
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just another steelheader
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Mattzoid
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I have a couple rods that size and I use them for winter run. I don't know about to big for Steelhead around here, but they do wear me out.
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Black_Ghost
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I don't think I could handle a 15+ foot 10/11 wgt rod at my age, the 14 ft, 9 wgt is more than enough for me. Suppose I will have to increase my upper body weight training furhter if I ever used one of those big heavy sticks. Not sure if the old body could take it, you know here in the states we don't have gillies carrying our tackle around nor netting our fish for us.
BTW, big disadvantage of the long spey rod especially when fishing solo, like I do 90% of the time is landing fish, very difficult particularly on the rivers here with no long gravel or sand bars in most rivers, and banks and brush/trees that come right down to the river, along with lots of under water timber, etc..
No wonder I went 0 for 21 the first year using the spey rod, losing fish, many because I could not successfully execute the final landing maneuver by myself in such river conditions. Upon further reflection, of the 21 lost fish I would attribute the loss of 5-6 due to the long spey rod not enabling me to land the fish after I had effectively had the fish beaten and on its way to the shore. Just could not get these fish up into a proper landing area by myself so they ended up unhooking themselves at the last critical moment or breaking the leaders, etc.. 
Landing is much less of a problem with a 9-10 foot single hander IMHO and experiences.
But I still like the spey rod for its many other advantages and don't care that much about losing steelhead after 25 years, unless its the mythical 20 LBer, that I lose on a spey rod and during the final landing phase. 
Then I will be very upset !
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
Edited by Black_Ghost (01/25/05 09:08 AM)
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REDSHED
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I've never understood all this about the problems of landing a steelhead on a spey rod. I've never found it any more difficult then with a 9ftr. If one is keeping fish they can be played to exhaustion with either. If one is releasing fish then it doesn't/shouldn't matter if the fish gets off at any stage of the game. Once that fish bites and you set the hook you've have basically won (you outsmarted the fish).
Verne if you want to see your backing more often, then it is quite easy to do. As for casting BIG flies Ed Ward does it all the time with a relatively smaller rod. You can always go to a lighter tippet or get a smaller lighter two hander. There are a bunch of them around. A few I'm familiar with are the CND Expert 1306, 1308, Custom 1307SP, 1308SP, 12'2" Spey Tracker, TFO 12'6"-6wt, 12'6"-8wt, Lamiglas 12'6"-6/7, St Croix 13'-7/8, Sage 5120, 6126, 7136.
Just about all the players in the manufacture of two handers have something in the lite weight range.
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Steelheader69
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Mike, I think it comes to the "fish at hand" scenerio. Where you're fishing single, and not wanting to beach the fish. Which, now in the state, it's illegal to beach a fish. Well, maybe you could technically make it legal if leave part of the fish in the water. I know I always had problems in tight spots with the long rod. Especially just past Willoughby on the Hoh River just in the canyon there. Was fishing the ledge and hooked a nice nate. Trouble came trying to land it without putting the rod into the danger zone (very high sticking). That extra 5' seems to add a bit of reach. So, think that's what Hal is talking about. No problems here hooking or casting one all day. But I started fishing a 9' 8wt glass rod. After that, most of these rods are cake. 
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williegunn
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Point the rod upstream over your shoulder, as the line comes down, grab it, chuck the rod up the bank then play the fish without the big rod, I would suggest waiting till the long run stage was passed :-)
Kerry When the line is drowned it stays drowned but I know what you mean but if it gets too deep you will not get back into control. Perhaps the difference in fishing a floater + tips and a full sinker.
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Malcolm
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Verne
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I saw Redingtons new r3 spey rods the other day, they are light and slim and look really nice. The 13'3" 7 wt. or 15' 8 wt. should be great if they will actually handle lines that light. Has anyone tried them?
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Black_Ghost
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Well the problem in the GLs is no rivers have the long gravel bars like they do in the PNW to land fish, I would kill for those, if you looked at picture albums you will see all of the rivers have dense foliage, deep under cut banks, with submerged debris. There are few rivers where you can depend on a good clean beaching opportunity by yourself.
But when I do not have a good clean area to land/beach a fish, if the fish permits I will try and lead it from an upstream angle and the spey rod extended our parallel to the bank and fish, then get the fish directly above me and lead its tail down to me for the hand tailing. Beleive me this is not easy by your self, and with usually a 6-8lb maxima leader.
I need a ghillie or a dependable steelheader colleague the later of which I have not had for about 12 years now.
Oh well, I will continue to use the spey rod none the less, if I can snap a quick picture of the fish before the release like I did with this one on the spey thats all the proof I need right ? LOL
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
Edited by Black_Ghost (01/26/05 06:48 AM)
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BobK
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Why do you need "proof"? If you KNOW you caught the fish, and have a reputation for truthfulness, then you have no worries. Or do you brag about them??
Besides, what does catching steelhead (or taking any wild critter, for that matter) prove, anyway? Does it make you a better person? Or more macho??
I always thought the name of the sport was trying to have FUN. Yeah, as a kid, I fished for food, but THAT was from economic necessity. Besides, sports that brought home protein got you out of other unpleasant chores!
BobK
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REDSHED
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Jerry, I know about the fish at hand scenerio. I just think that if a fish "is ready" to be released after being caught on a 9' rod then that same fish can be easily released after being caught on a 15' rod. This is only a personal opinion. I am open to all ideas. As I've said, "to each his own". You will find no dogma (except to have fun)at the Red Shed.
BG, Looking at your picture. What do you do with your 9' rod in this scene? Whatever you do, what is stopping you from doing the very same thing with your 14' or 15' rod?
Edited by REDSHED (01/26/05 12:27 PM)
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Black_Ghost
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Its the extra 4-5 feet of the spey rod that makes it harder for a single fisherman to get the fish into position to land by himself, plus for me many times in the Gls like in this picture there are many overhanging trees and limbs bushes right on the bank over you and the long spey rod you must manipulate the spey rod and your self through on a number of rivers.
Thats what makes it more difficult here.
In this picture the fish was tired and I was able to navigate him into position upstream of my, by holding the spey rod parralel to the bank and over my shoulder as I recall. Took a quick picture, then let him float down to me, tailed him with one hand, dropped the rod on the bank and water, then released him.
Not many fish can be done this way.
Oh another thing, it was a 6 lb Maxima UG leader !
Oh and Bobk I was not bragging about this fish, I was merely trying to demonstrate through an image to Mike and interested others the method used to land a spey rod hooked fish, I am now using when by myself which is 90% of the time. BTW, thats the best picture I ever have gotten of steelhead fishing by myself. He became very well behaved after I subdued him around the log jams and then gently released him. A Priceless moment !
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
Edited by Black_Ghost (01/27/05 07:19 AM)
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Steelheader69
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Mike, I try not to put too much upward angle on the rod when trying to tail it. Seems that extra 4' makes for a high flying rod when trying to tail it. My luck has always been, whenever I think I have it played out, it'll have one more go on me. Don't like having a high stick when the fish decides to make a mad dash. Seems I can get a little more leverage on the shorter rods and still lead to hand. But not that much, but more. Why I like having another person close by when using them. They can tail them for you. Especially with the "out of the water" rule here in Washington. Can be done though, I'm just REALLY careful. Nothing worse then hearing that "pop" noise from the blank exploding.
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Black_Ghost
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Does any body carry a net anymore while steelhead fly fishing ? Not many out here thats for sure.
Gave mine up in the early 80s.
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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Steelheader69
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I carry a net. But with our new law, can't do much with the fish. Think you could net, as long as the net doesn't take the fish out of the water. But comes out completely even an inch, you're in violation of the law. But yes, always have a net with me in the boat and usually on the bank. Depending on what I'm fishing for, and the chance I'll catch something I'm taking home for dinner.
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fredaevans
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Just back from several days on the Chetco River so I'm just getting into this thread.
I've 'lots and lots' of spey rods, but I've found that I've very little use for a rod of 16 foot or greater. (Meiser may be coming out with one now that will make me change my mind - Willie has it's "bigger cousin").
The typical rod I'll fish will be 13-6 or 14 foot for long hard fishing. That extra foot or two also adds a lot of 'weight' in front of your hands (bad leverage) and really poops me out.
In the same vein, I find little use for rods "rated" at 10 and up, other than in very special fishing situations. An example of that would be our spring king salmon run. Higher current speeds, BIG fish, etc. There a 14' 9wt would be a tooth pick one on one with these fish.
But that's just my .02 cents.
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Fred A. Evans
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Black_Ghost
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Fred, we think exactly alike 98% of the time.
But I really don't consider the big kings over 30lbs anyway a fly rod fish. Really need gear for them IMHO.
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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Steelheader69
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Actually, fresh from the salt kings are aggressive Hal. As long as you catch them still in transistion period. I've had VERY little luck upstream. But in the main stem of the rivers, and close to the salt, I've had quite a few over 30's hit a fly. Usually shrimp or baitfish patterns.
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Black_Ghost
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Yes I beleive they will take a fly fresh from the salt their just too big over 30 lbs for a fly rodder thats banking it. Yes you can chase them in a boat but then you lose your honey hole most of the time during salmon season.
And some esteemed PNW steelhead fly fishers from "The Other Board" told me three years ago these salmon were hard to catch would not take a fly and hard to locate and thus fly rodders did not target them much. Did not sound right to me, since the kings fresh from the lake in the GLs are a great fly rod fish. But not many go over 30 lbs, thank fully ! LOL
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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Steelheader69
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Ah, I remember that thread actually, I pretty much kept my mouth shut on that one, but agreed they are hard to target up river. Seems lots of scent seems to attract upriver. They just love eggs, especially a big gob of them. LOL. I do target them, but pick my battles a bit better. Though, they aren't bad, even over 30 on the bank. Just be prepared to be using a 10wt while you do it (which is what I mostly use for them).
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TEAM JACKSON BALDWIN
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fredaevans
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Quote:
Black_Ghost said:
Fred, we think exactly alike 98% of the time.
But I really don't consider the big kings over 30lbs anyway a fly rod fish. Really need gear for them IMHO.
BG
Hrumph ... well! that means your wrong! 2% of the time.
Generally, I'd agree with you on using regular 'tupper ware' rods (this is what our local bamboo fly rodders call them) but if you can ... why not?
Drowning the line, is when the fish goes down and across the current then comes back up the other side of the current ..."
Dang! Willie I forgot to ask: theis 'drowning' your talking about, is this due to your use of full sinking lines? Reason I ask is that's, even with a VERY heavy sink tip, pretty darned rare in my experince.
Fred
"...
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Fred A. Evans
Edited by fredaevans (01/29/05 02:20 PM)
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Black_Ghost
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Obviously in Europe they over tackle the salmon don't know about the trout that seems more like the tackle we use from my lurkings from afar.
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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