Black_Ghost
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Thick Tail
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Thats a 7/8/9 Rio WC line on a 13 foot spey rod, you see the head and running line connection at the bottom of the picture where the darker green and thinner running line connects.
This line has a 55 foot head per Rio specs, I have maybe cut off a foot of it to date, so that leaves a 54 foot head, subtract the 13 foot length of the rod that means I am fishing in this picture about 41 feet of line which to me is the maximum effective range that I can effectivel mend a fly into the target locations and may be able to hook a fish should one take the fly.
I don't see what all the hullabaloo is about making long spey casts its all about effective presentation of the fly to catch fish not how far you can cast a spey line.
A longer spey rod will make mending a longer cast easier but I don't see the reaction time of you setting the hook to a fly a long distance way as being very effective in hooking a fish.
Comments ?
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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REDSHED
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steelie
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I think you are grossly cheating yourself on your fishable water. #1, You could have the junction of the head/running line 6" inside the rod tip and still mend in the manner you describe. #2, based on the picture you appear to be swinging flies. For me one initial mend is all I would make and I believe that can easily be done by tensioning the running line just after the head hits the water.
Having said the above I will tell you that if you are satisfied with the way you are fishing then you should fish that way but if that were the case you most likely would not be asking for our opinions.
Also a change to a mid lenth line, as in Snowbee 2-D, Delta Long, or MidSpey would add 10' fishable feet to your method without changing anything else. I would still say you were cheating yourself
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fredaevans
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Well to add a bit to Mike's comments above, the main (personal issue) with short head lines is they're a pain in the bottom to mend. Somewhat of an exception is doing a 'air mend' just after you do the 'stop' on the forward cast. This will get you somewhere, but not too far.
Just back from the North Umpqua and 'enriched' Joe Howell by purchasing double taper lines to 'replace' the (relitively) short head WF's I was using. Problem was, fishing 'on the swing' was bringing nothing to the party as you had to make some pretty long casts .. but then couldn't mend. Same situation using the XLT lines; long casts/long mends ... easy. Make that 'short and short' and you're out of luck with that line.
So what was the mid ground for med-long casts that would mend well and allow me to fish 'dead drift?' Back to the good old double taper line(s). With the exception of very long casts (over 80 feet) the double taper lines worked just as well and brough everything back to the party.
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Fred A. Evans
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Kerrys
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steelie
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I am a bit perplexed. My favorite rod is 12'4". It is lined with a home made Skagit style line with the belly section of 22'14 weight and 155 grain 15' tips. My running line is 100' of .030. My average cast is around 80'. I am able to mend most of the 80' of line as long as I do so soon after the cast has been made. Once the tip has sunk mending is more difficult but I am still able to throw enough of a mend in to it to control the swing if needed.
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just another steelheader
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BobK
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An "effective" cast puts it in front of a pod of feeding fish, whether they are 5 feet away, or much, much farther. The secret is being able to control the line, by mending, lifting the rod, high-sticking, retrieving, or feeding line to a directly-downstream fish, all to give a natural and drag-free presentation to the fish.
We all have our limitations (distance, depth, equipment, etc.) to where we can effectively do this.
If you find fish that are beyond this distance, they are worth a cast or two, but you may just put them down, and are really better off either wading closer and "stalking", or if this is impossible, looking for another pod of active fish.
That's part of Chapter 1 of the basics. And we all have our limitations.
BobK 
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REDSHED
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steelie
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Fred I'm curious to know how much of that double taper you had beyond the rod tip on your average cast?
BobK in the scenario you are describing above, are you talking about "sight fishing"? I understand we are all fishing on different size water with different amounts of clarity, which sometimes confuses the answers.
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fredaevans
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Quote:
REDSHED said:
Fred I'm curious to know how much of that double taper you had beyond the rod tip on your average cast?
BobK in the scenario you are describing above, are you talking about "sight fishing"? I understand we are all fishing on different size water with different amounts of clarity, which sometimes confuses the answers.
Mike the DT7 is a 90 foot line; on several occations (13'6" sage) the connecting knot to the backing was all that was left on the reel. General leader length ranged from 13 to 15 feet. That said, the majority of the casts were probably between 40 and 60 feet including leader/fly.
Correct on your def. of 'sight fishing.' The reason the DT is still an effective line is that you can fish short or long, swing or dead drift same, and 'mend' as often as necessary (folks, imho, tend to mend far to much and with too much force-pulls fly up towards the surface).
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Fred A. Evans
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REDSHED
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steelie
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Howdy Fred, I don't see anything wrong with fishing a DT line but for fishing up to say 60' or so of "LINE" beyond the rod tip I don't see what a DT will do that a Delta Long won't.
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BobK
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Fred's got THAT right!
Actually, isn't all our fishing "sight fishing"?? You try to get your line through fish-holding water, where the water "looks" right, or in areas where we have taken fish before.
And, many times, as often as not, you just may be "standing where you should be fishing"!
Something to think about....
BobK
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fredaevans
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Quote:
REDSHED said:
Howdy Fred, I don't see anything wrong with fishing a DT line but for fishing up to say 60' or so of "LINE" beyond the rod tip I don't see what a DT will do that a Delta Long won't.
Exactly, the Delta Long has a very long head on it vis a vis the Windcutter's and others.
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Fred A. Evans
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Black_Ghost
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I am always fishing shorter line lengths nothing longer than 50-60 feet I would say 90% of the time, our rivers here hardly ever require a longer cast than that. The river above is an exception its very wide in most sections but very wadeable most of the time which allows you to postion yourself to cast effectively with out having to do long casts over 60 feet.
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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fredaevans
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Hal, that said ... slap on one of your single hander DT lines of appropriate weight ... I think you may like the results better than with a WF line design.
fae
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Fred A. Evans
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REDSHED
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steelie
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Again, with 50' of line beyond the rod tip what can you do with a DT that you can't do with the line he is already using?
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BobK
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I guess the automatic response to the question is "make a 10 or 20-foot cast."
That's the problem much of the time. It's a problem I LIKE to have!
BobK
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fredaevans
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Quote:
REDSHED said:
Again, with 50' of line beyond the rod tip what can you do with a DT that you can't do with the line he is already using?
Actually Mike it's not that hard to put a whole 90' feet of DT line (plus leader) off the rod. Backing off for the length of the rod, your at 75-80 feet plus leader length 'off the rod tip.'
Had to do this several times on the NU last week ... but you can still mend .. more than once. 
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REDSHED
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steelie
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Quote by BobK:"I guess the automatic response to the question is "make a 10 or 20-foot cast."
It might be the automatic response but I don't believe it is a valid one. I do not believe it is any harder to make a 20' cast off the tip with with 7' of Hal's WC then with 7'of Fred's DT. The 7' number comes if Hal or whoever were using a 13' leader which is about right for his 13' rod. For a 10' cast there would be no line beyound the rod tip so it doesn't matter if it is a DT or WF. In fact I spent well over an hour last evening making casts with a #4 fly, 12' leader and 3' to 8' of line outside the rod tip. The thing was turning over like a dream and lightly dropping that fly right in the seam. I was using a Skagit line.
Quote by FAE:"Hal, that said ... slap on one of your single hander DT lines of appropriate weight ... I think you may like the results better than with a WF line design.
fae
He may like the results better, but maybe not. Fred I don't have a problem with the DT but I just don't agree with the above statment. In fact @ 90' that DT is nothing more then a WF with no running line.
Above you said that "the majority of the casts were probably between 40 and 60 feet including leader/fly." At these distances I see no advantage with the DT over a WC, Delta Long, or even a skagit line no matter how much mending you want to do.
Edited by REDSHED (07/28/05 09:13 AM)
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BobK
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No, Redshed - I don't want to start an argument.
But hereabouts, all too often you have NICE fish working or lying - and close. When you have 50 feet of line out, you'd darn well strip some in to make that 20 foot cast!!
BobK
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REDSHED
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steelie
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Yo BobK,
Why are you talking about an argument? My point is that when stripping in that 50' of line to make that 20' cast it matters not if it is a DT or a WC which is what I thought this thread was about.
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fredaevans
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To a large degree (IMHO) you're both right. My 'vision' is that at casts/mends in medium/longish ranges (not short)the DT line still has the 'bulk' to do a better job of line minding (upstream, stack mend, etc.)than a (relatively) short head line. Longer headed WF's can be mended at quite some distances, as can an extended "belly" line like the XLT.
Any/all line configs. have their pluses/minuses ergo why I usually carry three rods.
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Fred A. Evans
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Verne
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In my experience the short double tapers you mentioned don't match up well as to line size for spey rods, also you are only working with about a 60' belly on a 90' line, less on a 82'. I tried a 9 wt DT., that wouldn't even cast on a honest 7 wt. spey rod.
Usually mending isn't that hard, IMHO, most people mend too much, or cast too far downstream to avoid mending.
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fredaevans
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Quote:
Verne said:
In my experience the short double tapers you mentioned don't match up well as to line size for spey rods, also you are only working with about a 60' belly on a 90' line, less on a 82'. I tried a 9 wt DT., that wouldn't even cast on a honest 7 wt. spey rod.
Usually mending isn't that hard, IMHO, most people mend too much, or cast too far downstream to avoid mending.
Good point as most spey lines/rods have ZERO cross reference to each other (at least up until a couple of months ago). But there are some very good one on ones. The rod/line I was using was a Sage 7136-4 and a Cortland 444 7wt DT.
Also tried the rod with an 8st DT and the line 'over grained' the rod.
Fred
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Fred A. Evans
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Verne
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I think my dt 9 wt. was a orvis, it was too light to cast on my 7wt orvis which uses a 6/7/8 windcutter, although oddly it cast ok on a 9wt. one handed rod. I tried shortening the end and everything. I am thinking of trying some dt lines for my spey rods, but am a little leary of the shorter ones. I don't especially enjoy stripping line every cast, and they would certainly fish in the 60-70' range I usually fish.
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fredaevans
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Good point Verne; exactly (remember this was a 10 and a half day trip on the North Umqua) that go me into Joe Howell's shop. (Joan just told me that between the three 'short stops,' I dropped close to $400 BUCKS!
Rather surprised she didn't come un-glued.
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Fred A. Evans
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Verne
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Speaking of spending money, I bought a Loop adpted spey line on line. When it came looks like a mid spey upgrade about 35' long. Does anyone know how to use it?
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REDSHED
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steelie
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I had a set of the Loop Adapted lines and I thought they cast very well. You will need some running line to go behind it. I just cast mine like I do a Delta/WC.
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Verne
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Thanks for the info. Do you need to add a tip or no?
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REDSHED
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steelie
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I did use both poly floating and sinking leaders and also I used a tapered mono leader as long as the rod.
An adapted line is just a fancy name for a shooting head. The therory was if you bought as an example 8/9 Loop rod you would then buy an 8/9 adapted line and it would match perfectly. Taking in to consideration the differences in people's casting styles and abilities the system works pretty good.
Edited by REDSHED (07/30/05 02:34 PM)
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Black_Ghost
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The only spey cast length which matters is the one which gives you "The Perfect Drift" for the current seam,pool, run etc you are currently fishing.
BTW, theres a race horse with the name "Perfect Drift" that raced here in Chicago this weekend. I thought of using this name as a screen id too but have not to date, it would be a good one though.
Forget about all those long spey casting stuff, its a tool to deliver "The Perfect Drift" not the longest possible cast IMHO
Mr 2 cents
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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BobK
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Well, finally learning, BG!
Fish to the whole river and the lies - whether they are across the river, or close at hand!
BobK
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Black_Ghost
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Re: Effective spey cast lengths ?
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