REDSHED
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steelie
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Quote by BG:"Yep this distance casting is a bunch of you know what"
BG, What amount of line beyond the rod tip do you consider to be distance casting?
I know several anglers that consistly hook steelhead on the Clearwater with 100' of line beyond the rod tip.
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Black_Ghost
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"I know several anglers that consistly hook steelhead on the Clearwater with 100' of line beyond the rod tip."
I consider long anything over 30 yards so thats long to me. God bless them but how many do they miss or even have an indication they have missed one with that long a line out ?
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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REDSHED
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steelie
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Quote by BG:"but how many do they miss or even have an indication they have missed one with that long a line out ?"
I'm sure they must miss some, but I have no idea how many if any they miss. I've never known any of them to really be counting or to really think that the numbers mattered. I would seem to me that most people concerned with the numbers give up on chrome eventually.
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knot_tyer
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Chromer
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It is kinda strange how physics work.. When you have a 100 ft of fly line out, one would think that they would have soo much slack that they couldn't ever manage their line. Quite the contrary: When you have moving water, the current does a fine job of keeping your string taught!
Generally when you are out that far and you get a tug, fish 9 out of 10 times will hook themselves. You can actually fool around and try to find the reel handle or some other calamity, and the river current will keep your string tight.
When in doubt: Don't fight your instincs!
Mike! Thanks for the recent referrals! haven't had a chance to say Thanks, so Thanks a bunch!!!!
--------------------
Team FI
Team Smoking Merc
Team Jackson Baldwin
The catching was so good I thouth I was there yesterday, Dave engbertson
www.wefishhere.com
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TallFlyGuy
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Hmm interesting topic.
100' of line out at anything more than a 45degree angle is gonna make your fly go extremely fast, almost a whipping action.
100' of line out in a river with a current that is the same speed all 100' might work, but in most river systems, there are little bits of water that are faster flowing than other bits. Good luck trying to control the fly and what it is doing.
Now the steeper the angle (more and more closer to 0 degrees) the slower the fly and more the control you have. You might only be casting out 15' but still have 100' of line out to get to that 15' mark. For this reason...Hallelujah Mr. Spey Rod.
The only downside to this is if you want your fly to get down. The fly isn't going to have time to get down, on a steep angle, unless you keep 10 or so feet in your hand and when you cast the steep angle, drop the 10 feet of line and let it sink; otherwise, your fly is right on top. I guess where there is a will there is a way.
I personally, on all the fish I have hooked, and landed on my Spey rod, have all been within 60' of line. On my windcutter line I have the mint section within my guides. I just like the mending control and not having to strip in a ton of line before I cast.
Tall
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My Fly is bigger than yours
When you see a man on top of a mountain....he didn't fall there!
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fredaevans
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Can I cast a long way? Yup, but 90+ per cent of the fish I've hooked were with in 30'ish feet of the bank. Problem with really long casts (as noted above) is you're in/out of the potentional holding water in a matter of seconds.
Fly had better be a chunk of weight just to get down/do it's job before you're in/out. Just my .02 cents here.
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Fred A. Evans
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Black_Ghost
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Since I don't fish very wide rivers its not an issue for me but to tell the truth I don't think I have ever hooked a steelhead on anything over 70-80 feet in length.
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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REDSHED
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steelie
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Quote by BG:"Since I don't fish very wide rivers its not an issue for me."
The river at the top of this thread looked pretty wide to me.
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fredaevans
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Good point Mike, but the photo's suggested 'wide, but not deep.'
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Fred A. Evans
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BobK
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That's the problem with many of the Great Lakes streams and rivers. They may be wide, but most can be easily waded across without getting much more than your shoes wet, except for the channels. Hence, careful wading and short, accurate casts upstream, usually to visible fish, are the norm.
There are only a few rivers I can think of where I usually take my two-hander to, and those are a long drive, and usually very crowded with "sportsmen" of "questionable ethics", and snagging, lifting, lining, and every other illegal technique seems to be the standard practice.
So I stick to my smaller rivers and streams.
BobK  
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Black_Ghost
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The river above is one of the widest out here similar to western river, so its not the typical river width we fish, plus this river is easy wading many shallow riffles which enable the wader to position themselves close to the holding areas etc and long casts are not needed most of the time.
Check out Peter S-C's long recent post over on the Spey Clave stating its about fly presentation not long casts so why are we always talking about long casts etc... He gets it for sure. Good post by Peter have to get back to lurk and see the responses.
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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TallFlyGuy
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Black Ghost, I havn't read or know where the post about presentation is, but you hit it.
Presentation is everything in my book. When I look at steelhead books, articles, etc. if the author doesn't spend time on presentation, I'm not sure the author "gets it" either.
Sometimes a longer cast will make a better presentation, but most of the time I don't think it does, (as I mentioned in above post).
Presentation is hands down the foundation to all Steelheading with a fly. After that, mabye flies and strike triggers/materials in the fly, but for the most part, I feel it's all about the presentation.
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My Fly is bigger than yours
When you see a man on top of a mountain....he didn't fall there!
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BobK
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Any "effective" cast with any rod is that cast which presents the fly to the fish at such depth of water and in such a manner where we feel the fish may be tempted to bite the fly.
That's a mouthful. Sometimes the fly may be retrieved, sometimes drifted "drag free", sometimes it may be on the surface (retrieved or drag-free), sometimes requiring judicious "mending", etc. Sometimes the right depth is on the surface, or any depth, all the way to "bottom bouncing".
In addition, sometimes the fish may be 5 feet away, in midstream lies, or clear across the river. But experience tells ut to "read the river" and recognize the lies.
That's why all the controversy in this post.
That being said, maybe we ought to ask the question a different way - something like a 2-part question that asks, "1. What is the longest length of line you can spey cast, and still present to the fish effectively? 2. What equipment and techniques do you use to accomplish this?"
BobK 
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Black_Ghost
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Well said Bobk !
 
I am keeping my casts shorter and controlled though no matter what anybody says about longer casts.
Set in my old FF ways I guess. Maybe I will not get
 as often.
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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REDSHED
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steelie
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"Well life is short, enjoy the ride" so I say believe what you want and by all means fish how you want. Just know that if you come to the Clearwater, being able to cast 100' of line past the rod tip is not a disadvantage.
I have two long belly "master blasters" demoing at the Clearwater clave in Sept, 2005. If you think these guys can't consistently catch fish at distances exceding 100' you will be wrong. "Peace and Love from the left bank".
Edited by REDSHED (08/21/05 04:44 PM)
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BobK
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Redshed, that's GREAT! And I believe you, and don't have a problem with that. It's just these Great Lakes tribs. They are just too small (with a couple of exceptions) to really use a two-hander to good advantage. Wish I lived out that way.
BobK
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Verne
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Where I fish most, the river, is wide with an even current over a cobblestone bottom. It is about the size of the Clearwater. The fish can be lying anywhere, even behind you if you wade very deep. You could cast 200'and not reach the far bank. I have watched a lot of spey casters with varying ability, from ugh to wow, fish this water and none cast more than 70/80' of line.
I can cast over 100' of line in practice on a lake or park, but I have trouble doublespeying more than 80' or so on the river actually fishing.
I personally think there are more long casts on the spey forums than on the rivers.
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fredaevans
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Quote:
Verne said:
I personally think there are more long casts on the spey forums than on the rivers.
"In real life" I think this covers 'it' very nicely. Good Go Guy!
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Fred A. Evans
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REDSHED
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steelie
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My point is not that you have to cast long to catch fish, quite the contrary. I myself can't cast 100' of line past the tip, I wish I could. However there are some posts in this thread that make it sound as if fish can not be caught at those long distances or that at the very least that it's a crap shoot with only "so-so" results. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Fred, You have Way and Steve to your event every year. They are both "BIG line boys". Do you think they just learned to boom it way out there (no pun intended) just for the Hell of it? I am well aware that they both like throwing a long line for pleasure but they have both spent a great deal of time perfecting the art of throwing a long line. I believe when they embarked on learning to be long line casters they did so as a means "to fish" more effectively.
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fredaevans
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Mike, I grant your point .. as it's probably more than true. Both of these fellows are Masters of Line Control .. after the "BOOMERS."
Fred
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Fred A. Evans
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BobK
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Fred, you got THAT right!! I guess that's the "secret", no matter how far you have to cast!
BobK
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TallFlyGuy
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Anyone let out 100ft of line and let it dangle in the current?
Try pulling that line up or through the water...a lot of friction. Would be very tough hook set for fish on the other end. I guess I would have to see someone have good line control and make a proper presentation at 100'+, because the physics of it just seem damn near impossible. Any video's of someone doing it... Not the cast, the presentation, after the cast.
Tall
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My Fly is bigger than yours
When you see a man on top of a mountain....he didn't fall there!
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Black_Ghost
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Plus with the heavy sink tips I fish with most of the year for steelhead and salmon its ugly and difficult to set the hook on a long cast.
The advantage to being able to cast longer is when on a wide river you can reach and penetrate holding lies that perhaps other fly anglers cannot reach. Not the case out here most of the time as the rivers are not like those big wide western waters.
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
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fredaevans
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Quote:
TallFlyGuy said:
Anyone let out 100ft of line and let it dangle in the current?
Try pulling that line up or through the water...a lot of friction. Would be very tough hook set for fish on the other end. I guess I would have to see someone have good line control and make a proper presentation at 100'+, because the physics of it just seem damn near impossible. Any video's of someone doing it... Not the cast, the presentation, after the cast.
Tall
Well not as hard as it may seem. Do have film of Way and Steve 'demoing' how they do that at the end of one of the Charity Clinics. Couple of things are necessary: a long headed line like the XLT or Carron (105 to 115'ish feet to the beginning of the running line); the second is a rod of 15 or more feet in length.
Major part (inho) of making really long casts, and fishing same, is the heighth of the rod tip above the water. Longer rod, higher off the water, long head line .. the longer out you can mend/control your fly.
As an example (an easy one to test yourself) is (same rod/line) how far can you consistently cast if you're up to your waist in water/up to your knees/standing at the edge of the water? 'Common thought' is for each additional foot above water the rod tip is, you can/could add about 10' to your cast length. For me it's actually about 5-6 foot, but I'm a so-so caster beyond 90 feet. But there are very few places I need to cast farther to get to the holding water.
Then I'm back into the 'how long will your fly actually be swinging through the place?'
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Fred A. Evans
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REDSHED
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steelie
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Quote by Tall:"Anyone let out 100ft of line and let it dangle in the current?
Try pulling that line up or through the water...a lot of friction. Would be very tough hook set for fish on the other end. I guess I would have to see someone have good line"
Quote by BG:"Plus with the heavy sink tips I fish with most of the year for steelhead and salmon its ugly and difficult to set the hook on a long cast."
Have either of you read Trey Combs book "Steelhead Fly Fishing and Flies"? NOT the book often referred to as "the steelheader's Bible" but a previous work on steelhead fly fishing. The copy I have is hardback and is green, copyright 1976.
On page 50 and 51 Harry Lemire (a legend amoung NW fly angling steelheaders) discusses making and fishing his running line.
I quote in part,"To summarize, we have a shooting head in which the front portion sinks quickly, and the back portion floats. Then we have a lightweight running line to be used with a stripping basket, that floats high on the water, is easy to mend, and feed, allowing ample time for the fly to reach it's maximum depth. Try a line like this, and I'll guarantee that you'll feel the effectiveness of it the first time afield. Can you imagine a 100' drag free drift? All you have to remember is to make the cast, mend the floating tail into an upstream position, feed the line through the drift, and every once in a while mend the running line to keep it straight to the shooting head."
While at this point Harry Lemire was not using a two hander he is still fishing a long ways out with apparently none of the negitive aspects noted in Tall's or BG's posts.
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Verne
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chum
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My experience indicates that steelhead tend to hook themselves on the swing, but not on dead drift or hangdown. I don't think that distance matters as much on a swung fly.
It appears most people cast the distance they can cast with comfort, consistancy and repeatability where there is endless river and no particular targets.
Sure if I see an active fish I will pop my wader seams trying to reach it.
Most of you have spey cast more than I have, but it concerns me when these forums often indicate that someone could spey cast like an angel if they only found the right rod. I don't think there is any shortcut to instruction and practice.
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Black_Ghost
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"Have either of you read Trey Combs book "Steelhead Fly Fishing and Flies"? NOT the book often referred to as "the steelheader's Bible" but a previous work on steelhead fly fishing. The copy I have is hardback and is green, copyright 1976."
Yep, I have had that book since 1980 and also have the other two T. Comb books on steelhead. That book was my initial steelheading bible as there was only one GLs book on steelhead at that time. The cover is falling off of mine now as it has been read many times. More than the Coombs later book or the bible which I BTW do not agree with but thats another subject.
I am not an advocate of long distance fly casting and being able to consistently hook fish. Guess I would have to see it done consistently to believe it. But I do beleive Harry Lemire can do it one of the PNW old masters.
I will stick with my short controlled casts and drifts. I wonder what Mr Kelson would think of all this ?
George Kelson
BG
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"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool."
Jane Wagner
Edited by Black_Ghost (08/25/05 10:30 AM)
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williegunn
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king
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I will happily fish behind you as I know with my 120ft casts I will pick up all the fish you are missing.
longer and controlled casts are much better than shorter fullstop.
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Malcolm
<")////<
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fredaevans
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Quote:
williegunn said:
I will happily fish behind you as I know with my 120ft casts I will pick up all the fish you are missing.
longer and controlled casts are much better than shorter fullstop.
If you've seen how Willie can handle a 2-hander ... this doesn't sound like 'braggogto' to me. I've watched Malcolm flip-roll a 75 foot full sinking head out of the water and chuck it to well beyond 100'.
Also saw Willie hook a drift boat anchor line on one of these and drag the guy INTO THE BEACH to get his fly back!!!!
Must be something with him being a Scot ... waste not, want not.
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Fred A. Evans
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Verne
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chum
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Last year a person fishing behind me with clever little spey? casts that fell in a heap about 30' out caught a nice steelhead, while I caught none with my beautiful casts.
The Scots must know something, my Daiwa Jim Love Special is the easiest rod I have to distance cast.
I see that I have been upgraded to a "humpy" flattering at my age.
Edited by Verne (09/04/05 02:33 PM)
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