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River Fishing >> Goverment & Science and Fisheries Management  

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Trouthead
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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: JedClampett]
      #266690 - 11/09/06 05:50 AM

Whoever he is, he needs to be fried along with anyone who was with him.
Sorry, that's probably my Bohemian ancestry coming out.

--------------------
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RiverJunkie
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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: JedClampett]
      #266744 - 11/09/06 01:46 PM

Here's a father son team "catching" salmon on myspace.

Hey, that fish grabs food with its back!

Teaching your son the value of fair catch, way to go dad.

http://vidsearch.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoID=974057449

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Team Oh, there's one.


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Steelheader99
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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: Luke_the_Drifter]
      #266869 - 11/11/06 01:30 AM

Quote:

Luke_the_Drifter said:
Indians don't respect the resources that they continually rape.




You definately are one of those rednecks that haven't got a clue about Indian culture. You need to get educated dude. Not all Indians (quite proud of that moniker) are card carrying, reparation taking, gill netting slugs as you would like to believe. It's because of people like you that made my greatgrandfather to be ashamed of his heritage. The ridicule, the racism, and the ignorance of people like yourself are the problem. Some of you folks on here should really start researching and learning about the people you put down on this bulletin board, before you start casting stones.

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philpac33
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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: Steelheader99]
      #266880 - 11/11/06 09:56 AM

didn't get to see the video, wish i had, but i have witnessed "guides"-yes, they represented themselves as such, got paid in front of my eyes, even gave me some business cards to give out, and i watched this reject "guide" repeatedly attempt, and was successful a few times, snagging steelhead in the weir hole on the tribal section of the salmon river...and his cousin(i'll leave out both names, unless you want them, ruben), he was even more of a beauty, 0700, 3/4 fifth of wild turkey down in one hand, and a 24oz milwaukee's best ice in the other, sitting up on a log telling me i needed to be using "chromer pink", until he fell about 6 feet off the log and into the river- i beleive it was january- and it wasn't quite puke-n-rally status, but it was impressive that he stayed out in the cold, "guiding" my buddy and i, even after another tough spill on the muddy trail leading us back away from the "no fishing" zone close to the hatchery..this was the guy we paid. good thing it was something like $60 for both of us. we caught some fish, saw some things i'll never forget, so i guess it was worth it. it was pure chance we even ran into them as we were just planning on fishing in the park that day. by no means am i labeling all tribal fishermen snaggers, poachers, or any other derogatory term we've all heard associated with "indians", because i have, in my experiences, seen waaay more white(or non-tribal) people snag and poach. maybe because they by far outnumber the tribal people i see out fishing and hunting; i use "they" because i myself am not white. i have been mistaken for tribal members, hispanics, amongst others, but i am in fact half thai, half white. brown, if you will. but i do pose the question, per capita, do more tribal members violate fishing/hunting laws(including following the netting regulations to the t) than non-tribal fishers and hunters? keep in mind there are different laws governing each side, tribal and recreational/commercial, and to be honest, i'm not ever sure what the tribes regs are, just what i've heard from tribal police, netters themselves, some of the snaggers on the skok, and what i read here and there. so once again, i pose the question, per capita, who violates more regs, tribes or sporties? this will be absolutely non-scientific as peoples responses will be purely their opinions. go hawks and dawgs!

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quinaultguide
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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: philpac33]
      #266886 - 11/11/06 02:00 PM

Its really hard to say "per capita" but you are right, there are alot of so called guides that violate our own rules. I do not fish the state rivers so I can only tell you what Ive heard from others. And that is just hearsay so who knows. I know the guy you are talking about, and Im sure there are more like him and on other reservations. And I know its people like this that give indians a bad name.

As far as our gillnetters go, they have their own regulations and our enforcement officers are there ready to confiscate nets if they arent out on schedule. Most follow the regs. some dont.

Anybody can go and find some indian kid to take them into the weir hole on Salmon or "Letty's hole" on Cook creek, maybe pay them 50 bucks for their time. Its frustrating for those of us that are trying to make a respectable business to see that.

Your hardly ever hear about people like Clay Butler, retired special agent for the Park service and former BIA cop. Hes been a tribal guide for 30+yrs. releases wild summer run(even though we dont have to), and can catch more steelhead in the mouth then most knuckleheads can catch rotten coho in the back.

--------------------
"No arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women.
- Ronald Reagan


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JedClampett
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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: quinaultguide]
      #266899 - 11/11/06 06:39 PM

I have fished with Mr Butler once on the Queets. He's a stand up guy. He taught me a few things about catching silvers with spinners. (mostly that when I couldn't hook any fish, he could randomly toss a spinner in and hook fish every time!) "just checking"

--------------------
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potter
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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: quinaultguide]
      #266939 - 11/12/06 05:16 PM

I didn't know they named a hole after me...with the lake dirty it looks like I'll spend another December in my hole, where ever it is.

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quinaultguide
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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: potter]
      #267030 - 11/13/06 12:03 PM

We're still talking about fishing right?

Yeah I heard the lake turned over. Owell, I guess its the lower Queets for me if mother nature ever lets us. We cant get a brake this year, record low to record high.

--------------------
"No arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women.
- Ronald Reagan


<")}}}><~ Ruben Estavillo
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Steelheader69
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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: quinaultguide]
      #267031 - 11/13/06 12:22 PM

Well, feel thankful (well, maybe, depends on what you have over there). Just got over the flooding here, and we just got hit with a huge windstorm. Literally ripped our small hay storage out of the ground (10'x20'x8' high) and destroyed it. Got stuck at home today cleaning that crap up. Now need to rebuild that (and anchor it a BIT deeper into the ground this time LOL). But if this keeps up, my chores will keep me so busy that even if the rivers come back into shape, I'll still be working on getting stuff rebuilt/cleaned up.

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Luke_the_Drifter
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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: Steelheader99]
      #267075 - 11/13/06 04:02 PM

Quote:

Steelheader99 said:
Quote:

Luke_the_Drifter said:
Indians don't respect the resources that they continually rape.




You definately are one of those rednecks that haven't got a clue about Indian culture. You need to get educated dude. Not all Indians (quite proud of that moniker) are card carrying, reparation taking, gill netting slugs as you would like to believe. It's because of people like you that made my greatgrandfather to be ashamed of his heritage. The ridicule, the racism, and the ignorance of people like yourself are the problem. Some of you folks on here should really start researching and learning about the people you put down on this bulletin board, before you start casting stones.




Oooh, touchy touchy. You need to see a doctor, to get your skin tested for "thin-ness." You are right, not all Indians can be bunched into the category you outlined. Many can be, and those that do carry on the stereo-type. I know much about Indian culture, more than the average person. Ancestral culture is a far cry from what goes on now on most reservations. I have been through many reservations, in several states, they resemble above ground garbage dumps aside from the flashy casino property. The elders of pre-colonial tribes would be ashamed at what their people have become. Once proud warriors, fishermen, and hunters have become slaves to the government. There is no pride in that.

--------------------
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potter
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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: Luke_the_Drifter]
      #267079 - 11/13/06 04:36 PM

Is this Cowlitzfisherman reincarnated? Give me a break. We're all slaves to the Government. If you own land (I do)you pay taxes, don't pay, you lose "your" land. Give it up Luke, there are those that try and those that don't in every group of people.

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Luke_the_Drifter
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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: potter]
      #267081 - 11/13/06 04:55 PM

Quote:

potter said:
Is this Cowlitzfisherman reincarnated? Give me a break. We're all slaves to the Government. If you own land (I do)you pay taxes, don't pay, you lose "your" land. Give it up Luke, there are those that try and those that don't in every group of people.




Evidently you don't understand what working for what you own means, Harry. Tax money is taken from me, tax money that comes from money that I earn (key word) through hard work. Then it is given to others who don't earn it. To me that is wrong. I am a slave to no one. I earn everything I have and then a good chunk of that is taken from me for taxes, of which some is used for things I approve of. My point is that I don't believe that any more reparations should be allowed for Indians. Time for them to assimilate into the culture of 21st century America. If they can't stand on their own two feet, then they don't stand at all.

--------------------
"There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live."








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JimW
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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: Luke_the_Drifter]
      #267084 - 11/13/06 05:35 PM

Quote:

Luke_the_Drifter said:
Quote:

potter said:
Is this Cowlitzfisherman reincarnated? Give me a break. We're all slaves to the Government. If you own land (I do)you pay taxes, don't pay, you lose "your" land. Give it up Luke, there are those that try and those that don't in every group of people.




Evidently you don't understand what working for what you own means, Harry. Tax money is taken from me, tax money that comes from money that I earn (key word) through hard work. Then it is given to others who don't earn it. To me that is wrong. I am a slave to no one. I earn everything I have and then a good chunk of that is taken from me for taxes, of which some is used for things I approve of. My point is that I don't believe that any more reparations should be allowed for Indians. Time for them to assimilate into the culture of 21st century America. If they can't stand on their own two feet, then they don't stand at all.





AMEN brother

--------------------
In memory of Floyd M. Wright; Nov 3 1925 - Oct 8 2007. you were the greatest, I love you Dad.


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MartyAdministrator
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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: Luke_the_Drifter]
      #267085 - 11/13/06 05:36 PM

Luke I guess you won't inherit anything from your parents? The state of Reservations are more a fact of lack of economy than anything else... like you say the casinos are flashy. Amazing what economy does to a area and its people or the lack of it.

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GoooseModerator
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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: Marty]
      #267086 - 11/13/06 05:43 PM

Luke if you or your legal representatives signed a contract would you honor it?

--------------------
Independent Advocate For The Fish
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It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain



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Luke_the_Drifter
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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: Marty]
      #267088 - 11/13/06 05:50 PM

Quote:

Marty said:
Luke I guess you won't inherit anything from your parents? The state of Reservations are more a fact of lack of economy than anything else... like you say the casinos are flashy. Amazing what economy does to a area and its people or the lack of it.




WTF??? Where does inheritance come into this argument? I don't remember mentioning anything about that? Why would you think that I have anything to inherit? Do you know if my parents are still among the living? Did I ever know my parents? If I did know my parents, did they have anything to pass down?

Lack of economy, please. It's called lack of effort due to the fact that work is not required to survive. If you need a job, there is work, there always has been, there always will be. Where do you think economy comes from? It comes from people who put their asses out on the line with investment capital and a dream of prosperity. Economy thrives in spite of government regulation that continually hinders it. Yes, it is amazing what economy can do, economy is nothing more than a collection of individuals working together in a vast network of commerce.

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Luke_the_Drifter
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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: Gooose]
      #267089 - 11/13/06 05:55 PM

Quote:

Gooose said:
Luke if you or your legal representatives signed a contract would you honor it?




I'm assuming you are speaking of treaties, yes I would honor treaties. Back in the day, the tribes were treated unfairly and lied to consistently. Tribes are still getting special treatment with fishing and hunting rights and special government help. I don't believe any of this should be continued. All I want is fair treatment for all American citizens under the law. If I have to abide by a law, then so should everyone else.

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MartyAdministrator
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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: Luke_the_Drifter]
      #267090 - 11/13/06 06:01 PM

treaties are part of there inheritence

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JimW
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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: Marty]
      #267091 - 11/13/06 06:04 PM

Quote:

Marty said:
treaties are part of there inheritence




Do you realy believe that?

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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: Luke_the_Drifter]
      #267092 - 11/13/06 06:08 PM

Lack of effort? You ever pick oysters or dig clams for a living? Pulled a beach seine by hand? Worked for a shellfish company spreading oyster seed on shell by rake or in the shucking line? Neither are particulary pleasant jobs but the tribal members I know do it. Made sure the elderly and less able were supplied with food even if they are not tribal members? Made sure the same had a winters worth of firewood?

--------------------
Independent Advocate For The Fish
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It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain



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JimW
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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: Gooose]
      #267093 - 11/13/06 06:11 PM

Goose Not saying your a lier but I would like proof of that my self. I for one have never seen it.

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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: JimW]
      #267094 - 11/13/06 06:21 PM

If the contract was good in 1855 what has changed contractually that it would be void today? Why are those contractual guarantees now termed special rights today? If I held a contract signed by your legal representatives that had no mention of a date of the contract being met and ended why should I let it be terminated? Example Great Great Great Grandpa Luke signed a contract with my same anglo-saxon ancestor to have rights to use our ancestral land for hunting and fishing forever in trade for whatever. Whats the difference? Or do you just do not like the contract you inherited and you and I and Letty and all of us did inherit a number of contracts called treaties?

--------------------
Independent Advocate For The Fish
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It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain



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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: Luke_the_Drifter]
      #267095 - 11/13/06 06:26 PM

luke- i'm with you on no more reparations- to me, seems there have been "sufficient reparations", from the boldt decision of 1972 to the partial monopoly on full blown casinos; i say "full blown" because casinos can operate on non-tribal land, but with no slots and a different set of rules and regulations, which i'm unfamiliar with..what i do know is that some of these big casinos make BANK, and i believe the respective tribes receive stipends from the success of these casinos, each and every member in cases..this i'm fine with..the boldt decision of 1972, that i have an issue with..it's antiquated..50%??? that's a load of $hit- after watching hundreds of netters over the years- and i haven't seen them all, i'm sure all the ones i don't see follow every rule and record all information as they're supposed to- i still have yet to see them actually count the fish they pull from their nets, and record them into any sort of logbook, not that i even know what the proper procedures are for netters; what i do know is that each and every year when the price of salmon goes down, the fish are caught in nets and thousands of perfectly edible salmon end up rotting on the banks, and sometimes, nowhere near the water where the rotting carcass may actually do some good in the ecosystem- hens stripped of eggs, and every buck, regardless of condition(i've seen many 20+lb chrome coho) tossed on the bank to rot as if it were a nasty, spawned out chinook from a month earlier..should tribes still be allowed to net? i would have to say yes, but i would like their regs enforced more closely(sporties need more enforcement, too), and the number 50% needs to be looked at more closely...is 50/50 really fair? is it ok to still net when "emergency closures" disallow sporties to fish, even if it is made a selective gear fishery? the constitution of this great country is over 200 years old, and the basic ideas from that are still in effect, but even those come under scrutiny and are amended, if need be..the boldt decision of 1972, needs to be scrutinized by non-biased parties and an amendment should be made, if the findings of the research shows that it not only to be fair, but also for the overall benefit of the resource..the quinault hatchery is world class; i not only like what is done there, but would like other state agencies to take notice, and possibly try to mimic what you guys do there..those of you with a.d.d. and those smoking pot, good, forget everything i've ranted about--the main point i had in this post is that in my opinion, antiquated rulings need to be looked at from a 2006 and beyond perspective, and i believe an amendment to the boldt decision or a whole new ruling would not only benefit the fish, but also the recreational angler, who are BIG parts of washington's economy, and responsibe tribal netters and guides, who give a good representation of what they would like to get done...it's true, a couple of rotten apples can spoil a whole bunch but if there are many bad apples in your bunch, you may as well put them in the compost pile and pick a new basket

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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: Gooose]
      #267098 - 11/13/06 06:52 PM

Jim I've never had cause to call you one of those...I expect the same respect. Maybe it is a matter of my working with and around tribal members or several decades and knowing several well enough that I hope they consider me a friend on the rivers, beaches and the street. From 1976 to 1985 I worked side by side with numerous tribal people in the logging industry. If that isn't working for a living I don't know what would be called that? From 85 to 89 I attended college with several tribal people who were keenly interested in bettering themselves, their people, all people and the resources. From 89 to today I've worked with and alongside them in the arena of shellfish. I've fished and hunted alongside them and adopted the same culture of providing for those who cannot harvest. I've attended with friends several of their christian celebrations over the years. Proportionately numberswise within both communities I'd say that they have the anglo-saxons beat in enthusiasm. I have also attended several tribal councils and maybe we as a society have something to learn. Wow that's a lot of details but thats my experience with and honest observation of these peoples.

On the other hand I've observed much the same you all have over my lifetime and yes I've observed that which I disagree with. I have done the same within many non-tribal communities.

--------------------
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It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain



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Re: Snaggers on film new [Re: philpac33]
      #267100 - 11/13/06 07:11 PM

Philpac do you believe the 2nd Amendment to be antiquated? Maybe a majority today do not but a large number of people do. In the case of the Boldt decision I suspect you'd find the same situation to be true. Tribal members depending upon the tribe do receive the benefit of tribal enterprises such as casinos and in the case of several tribes tribal fisheries as all of their catch has to be sold thru the tribal corporation. My personal observation is that a large percentage of sporties also do not record or report catch but most do as like does the most tribal fishers and hunters. Maybe we are both trying to express the same thoughts? Boldt as a federal supreme court decision is essentially unchallengeable as it's foundation is built upon over 200 years of court decisions in regards to federal tribal treaties that run the range of governance, fisheries, hunting, water rights, shellfish, taxation, property ownership and you name it. All of that and more was part of the Boldt Decision. Personally I would rather have federal law decisions be be based upon such a substantive and rich history of legal decisions than what one group wants today or tomorrow. Damn I wish a lawyer like Todd would weigh in?

--------------------
Independent Advocate For The Fish
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It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain



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