Mojo
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Hatchery fish do spawn. The smolt just don't thrive. The issue we have here in Idaho is that the strain of fish the IDF&G used as foundation stock in the hatcheries here were McCloud River fish from California. They were chosen becuase they survive well in cement ponds. They are not genetically adapted to survive a 700 mile journey down the Salmon, Snake, and Columbia to the ocean. They suffer a high mortality somewhere in the upper-mid Columbia. They also don't do well in the sterile rivers of central Idaho. They never have. It has historically taken millions and millions of smolt released to get enough hatchery fish returning to have a fishery. Obviously after 50+ years, the wild genetics have crept in, and only the strong survived, and now these A-Run fish are returning at a moderate rate. Funny observation though, the A-Run Hatchery survive at less than 1% return, and the Clearwater hatchery fish (of native stocks, B-Runs) survive at 3-5%. Much higher, but not good.
The B-Runs that spawn in the upper main Clearwater actually do have decent survival. The South Fork fish don't have a measureable survival of smolts, but water quality, lack of forage, and siltification of spawning habitat ensure there are few survivors.
I'm not a biologist, but I read up on my local water, and stayed in a Holiday Inn once... 
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Tight Lines,
Mojo
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Luke_the_Drifter
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That's some good info, Joe. I'm not a biologist either, but I did pass out in the brush once...or twice.
 
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"Curiosity is natural to the soul of man and interesting objects have a powerful influence on our affections."---Daniel Boone
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Ihookum
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3 salt
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There's nates in the upper Chehalis beacuse nates spawn there.
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Fishhead5
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Quote:
NickVellios said:
Quote:
Fishhead5 said:
Quote:
NickVellios said:
Oh well. Like anyone needs to bring home 4 a day.
My smokehouse will hold 50 silvers.
I'm sure it will. And an indian's net will hold 500 silvers. What is your point Chief Fishhead5 Runningwater?
I like smoked fish, just because you don't want that many fish doesn't mean someone else doesn't. I have never figured out why some people give a rip about how many fish someone else wants to take home.(I think that would be my point) Everytime my sister comes to town I lose 4 or 5 packages of fish. The same with Dad, and lot of other people that come over.
I do like that new name "Chief Fishhead5 runningwater"
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Fishhead5
It is not illegal to deplete a fishery by management.
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Salmo_g
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king
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Trying to remember the thread topic here, . . . oh yea, 4 fish coho limit this fall in SW WA. Those fish are hatchery fish. Wild coho are obvious by their general scarcity on the LCR and its tributaries due to decades of wipe out fishing by the gillnet fleet. As most of you know, hatchery runs can sustain a higher harvest rate than their wild run brethren. The result is that few wild coho return to the Columbia. That is turning slightly with ESA listing of coho and the restoration program on the upper Cowlitz, but well over 90% of the returning coho are still hatchery origin fish.
Because they are hatchery coho, annual smolt production is roughly the same, regardless of whether it was a dry summer or a wet summer, because the hatcheries keep those juvenile fish wet. So the adult run sizes are primarily influenced by ocean survival and the ocean harvest rates. The ocean harvest rates are set at a level to protect the wild coho stocks mixed in with the hatchery fish. So when ocean survival is really good, very large runs of hatchery coho return to the Columbia tributaries and their hatcheries. Because of ESA listings, the gillnet fleet can't do the usual wipe out fishery and mop everything up. They are limited to 3-5 days per week, which is still to much for the wild coho, but that's another topic. The result of slightly reduced gillnetting is large runs of hatchery coho to the Cowlitz, Lewis, and Kalama, and a few others. These run sizes far exceed the natural spawning escapement goals for these rivers - if theses rivers even had natural spawner escapement goals - they don't (see wipe out fishing mentioned above).
The upshot is that the daily bag limit on hatchery coho in large return years is irrelevant on these SW WA rivers. It could be 4, 6, 10, or 20 a day, and it would't make any difference to future run sizes. Water conditions and the non-snappy nature of a lot of hatchery coho end up limiting the recreational harvest anyway, so bag limits are probably important because of the yokel and snagging references mentioned earlier in this thread.
Sincerely,
Salmo g.
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Marty
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redneck yachter
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Thanks for directing this back on track 
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Marty
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CastawayChris
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We need to get Salmo and Snagly together and stick them on the CCA, if only Brad lived closer lol! Awsome info Salmo!
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CastawayChris
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Hey also, Welcome to our fishing community Salmo, looking forward to reading much more of ur threads in the future and seeing what u have to offer on this board, again, keep it up, ur knowledge is always nice to read here and on PP!!
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BorntoFish
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Quote:
CastawayChris said:
Hey also, Welcome to our fishing community Salmo, looking forward to reading much more of ur threads in the future and seeing what u have to offer on this board, again, keep it up, ur knowledge is always nice to read here and on PP!!
  
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AuntyM
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Oh yeah, Hey Salmo. About time.
You DO realize there is no "circus" here unless you ask to be admitted to the droolers den? That's where the bad boys hang.
Oh, and we have a dirty joke forum you can't access without asking too.
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Desertdog
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Always nice to see Salmo G post informative information... and nicer when its here.
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Grandpa to 9 boys 8 girls and 1 angel
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Gooose
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Thanks Salmo. One of the problems with our current hatchery system is that they can generate due to ocean conditions returns far larger than needed for egg take and beyond the means of a reasonable sport fishery to harvest. The need to protect wild fish further limits the ability of commercials to harvest those hatchery fish. I suspect the 4 fish limit will quickly become a six fish limit once those LCR hatchery fish flood in to those rivers. Yokels will arrive in droves and the annual snagfest will be spectacular.
Personally I enjoy every chance to partake of ChiefRunningWaters excellent smoked salmon. Locally a good portion of my hatchery coho catch has always gone to feed a handful of elderly people who are essentially incapable of harvesting their own fish but absolutely enjoy a meal of fresh coho.
The other subject raised in this thread regarding interbasin transfers of hatchery stocks deserves and should be in it's very own thread.
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"Seen worse".....
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Pug
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While I dont think that I can offer such an insightful comment as Salmo, four fish limits are cool. I do not take that many home for myself but they do have ways of ending up in other peoples smokers and ovens. So it is not a really bad thing. And since Salmo pretty slammed the whole topic in the pooper pretty hard, lets go knock the piss out of them and have fun. 
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Fishin fool if I can find the fools to fish!
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Brewer
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Then They Turned @ Last To Me, We Shall Call You Brewer, The Slayer Of Salmons You Shall Be'
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i too love 4 fish limits on quality fish. four kids who eat like piglets! hell yea! they gobble fresh fish down!! baked, gone! bbq'd, gone! smoked, gone! who ever made that lame comment about who needs that many fish doesn't have 2 teenagers and 2 whippersnappers in his house i tell you what.
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ABUfreak
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salmo's post about hatchery coho being non-snappy raises a pretty interesting point. how many fish do you actually see out of places like the cowlitz, puyallup etc any more that are taken by legitimate methods(i'm not talking the 10' leader crowd)? i could venture as far as saying that if the limit was 1 fish you wouldn't see much of a difference.
unlike on little rivers like the skokomish, where if one knows how to work a spoon or vibrax, can fill a 4 fish bag limit rather quickly...
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if we aren't supposed to eat fish, why are they made out of meat?
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AuntyM
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Quote:
Personally I enjoy every chance to partake of ChiefRunningWaters excellent smoked salmon.
Hey, you rarely see me whore anything, But ChiefRunningWaters smoked salmon will have me thinking up all sorts of schemes to get my hands on some.
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fishdoc
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Brewer...wait tell them whippersnappers are teenagers!! My three teenage boys can make so much food disappear so incredibly fast! We love it, we only get to do this once so we have a lot of fun with our human vacumns. They contributed awfully well this year with two elk, six deer (Montana) and the oldest boy put 30 silvers in the freezers just by himself...yes Cowlitz silvers will bite...ask him...oh wait...he wont tell.
So keep enjoying the ride Brewer as I know you are!
doc
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If we always do what we've always done, we'll always get what we've always gotten.
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CastawayChris
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This is against my morels but here I go!
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CastawayChris
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Quote:
Gooose said:
Locally a good portion of my hatchery coho catch has always gone to feed a handful of elderly people who are essentially incapable of harvesting their own fish but absolutely enjoy a meal of fresh coho.
I too do this and to people who don't know how to fishor to fish as good as I or are just beggining!!!
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Musicman
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If the run will support 4 fish....I'm all in....this isn't a 401k program...what doesn't get harvested, WILL die! plain and simple! I hope to fish with many of ya and get 4 a day! CYA on the river!!!
Tight lines...
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JD
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AuntyM
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Quote:
If the run will support 4 fish
I hate to spoil everyone's fun, but that's exactly the "preprogrammed" response our fisheries managers hope to see. In reality, those "excess" fish might be better utilized for nutrient enhancement in many of our rivers. Those marine derived nutrients could be the "actual" missing link in recovery efforts. It took a lot of dead fish to feed generations of native salmon and steelhead. I seriously doubt there is a single fish bio out there who can say for certain how many is too many.
Just want ya'll to think about the future and how we might need to change our perspective if we really want to make a difference.
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Musicman
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While I agree M, not every fish is caught...I personally dont know the %, but i'm confident it's minimal compared to the run projection? I may be way off base?? To me the powers to be would factor in catch rates vs escapement vs the spawners that will feed the next generation of smolts?? If not, they aren't doing their jobs or not listening to the fish bio's? 
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JD
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Marty
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The fish are normally slated for removal so they don't compete with the natives/cross breed etc... Rivers are void of nutrients with out something dying/rotting in them. If we remove all the nutrients that can support our smolts we are left with beautiful habitat without food. Like having beautiful pasture with nothing but gravel to feed the cows.
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Marty
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Musicman
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Thick Tail
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Thanks Marty, I was assuming the hatchery fish that aren't removed......didn't think the hatchery guys gave a crap after they met their goals...if my assumption is wrong then I can understand AM's point. Thanks.
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JD
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Salmo_g
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king
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Thanks for the friendly comments.
AuntyM,
When the daily bag limit is raised to 4 or 6 coho, it's because the terminal area run size is really, really large. The effect of the increased recreational bag limit is inconsequential on the escapement for both reproduction and even as marine derived nutrients. As many as 85,000 coho (some wild, but mostly hatchery) have been trucked to the upper Cowlitz, which is far more than is needed for natural spawning. So plenty of coho nutrients were obtained even with a 6 fish limit that year. Currently, I think they may be restricting the upper basin to 35,000 surplus hatchery coho plus all the wild return. I may not have that exactly right, but you get the idea. In the end, it seems that the increased bag limit only accounts for a few thousand extra coho in the sport harvest, which is a small chuck out of runs greater than 50,000 to the river.
Other rivers that have bag limits raised will be for the same reasons, but the respective numbers are different.
The comment about inter-basin transfers was mentioned a couple times. Such transfers were once common. In some cases it creates more problems than it solves. The state and tribes and feds have become more restrictive about that in response to better information about ecosystem management and frankly, to reduce the spread of fish diseases. I think at this time inter-basin transfers are limited to within regions, like lower Columbia, coastal, and Puget Sound. I'm not sure, Hood Canal may now be treated separately from the rest of Puget Sound, altho they share the same hatchery stock origins.
Sincerely,
Salmo g.
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Marty
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On the solduc they use the excess hatchery salmon to toss into the river for added nutrients. Usually this can be seen if the tail is chopped off the carcass. Some are frozen to float downstream before sinking. There is also a fear of using salmon from one system in another because of the spread of disease. Bio's are aware of this stuff and the latest trend seems to be more focused in this area and studies.
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Marty
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Pay it forward
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AuntyM
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Salmo,
The problem is, you guys don't REALLY know how many is enough. Mother nature did, and when we try to second guess her, more often than not, we get it wrong.
Quote:
The state and tribes and feds have become more restrictive about that in response to better information about ecosystem management and frankly, to reduce the spread of fish diseases.
Same group is telling us the resource can support the current level of harvest, and I'm not buying that either. 
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Musicman
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Thick Tail
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"Mother" nature is over rated...is there a baseline on this?j/k M...you know me...you guys do bring some good thoughts to the table though~ still, if I can keep 4,i'll give it a second thought....
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JD
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Fishhead5
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I derived nutrients from those fish
Mother Nature's cycles are up and down. If there are "too many" fish, the smolts won't have enough to eat and die, fish ducks eat well and have more young, they eat more fish. Pretty soon there aren't many smolts, which mean more food, less predation. The cycle starts over.
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Fishhead5
It is not illegal to deplete a fishery by management.
Limit all U.S. politicians to two terms:
One in office and one in prison!
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Musicman
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Thick Tail
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true D, does that mean we're gonna go fishin?
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JD
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