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the columbian newspaper reported that the SW colubia tribs will be chucked full of silvers this fall. there will be four adult daily limits. cowlitz, NFL,kalama for sure these rivers. was certain there was a couple more too. i'm on the WDFG email list, and get all notices sent to me. however this notice i did not get. HHHHM. so not sure how the couve paper got this early tip. the great thing about silver season is its right in the middle of shootm'up riffle season. leaves brewer all to himself on hot fall rivers. 
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fishdoc
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Amazing what happens when the nets are out of the water. Sure hope this is all true...nothing better than a hot silver in my opinion.
doc
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NickVellios
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It would be nice if they left the limits to 2 a day and let the populations blow up.
Oh well. Like anyone needs to bring home 4 a day.
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Brewer
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it just doesn't work that way nick. overflow is overflow, its all cycles. last year most of the silver fishing was poor. cowlitz had tons of silvers, but those silvers only bite in high water. last the kalama and washougal was closed to any silvers. the year before the kalama was very productive. seems like every other year is great while the even year royally sucks! just brewer assesment. i don't recall how the halis did last fall or even the year before.
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Quote:
The Brewer said:
seems like every other year is great while the even year royally sucks!
Um, maybe because every other year they close the system or reduce the limits and every other year they open it back up with 4 fish limits. 1+1=2. 1-1=0.
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Chehalis this last fall sucked, but year before was pretty decent if I recall right.(think we had some early rain and the first push of silvers escaped most of the masses since the rivers weren't open yet)
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FOP
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One of the worst years on the Chehalis I have ever seen for Coho. The year before was pretty dang good. Four fish limits sound great. (not on the Chehalis) I like to see that rather than all those fish gettin dark and killed at the hatchery or put in some lake after they've got ugly.
Edited by FOP (04/17/07 04:40 PM)
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fishdoc
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Shouldn't have any effect on the Halis, this is a Columbia trib ruling I believe. No Kings = No Nets, No Nets = Silvers!!
doc
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Quote:
NickVellios said:
Oh well. Like anyone needs to bring home 4 a day.
My smokehouse will hold 50 silvers.
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Luke_the_Drifter
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Quote:
Fishhead5 said:
Quote:
NickVellios said:
Oh well. Like anyone needs to bring home 4 a day.
My smokehouse will hold 50 silvers.
And these are hatchery fish we are talking about, assuming large returns the hatcheries will fill their broodstock quotas quickly. These fish are raised by taxpayers cash, so why not allow the taxpayers to reap the benefits of a bumper crop. One man taking four silvers home just for himself would be alot of fish. That's why there are smokehouses like Fishhead5's and freezers. When those are filled then there are relatives and friends who are unable to fish or who might just enjoy some salmon for dinner.
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FOP
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Quote:
Fishhead5 said:
Quote:
NickVellios said:
Oh well. Like anyone needs to bring home 4 a day.
My smokehouse will hold 50 silvers.
Man 50?? Mine only holds about 15 at once. Dude, I should just have you smoke all mine for me.
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NickVellios
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Quote:
Fishhead5 said:
Quote:
NickVellios said:
Oh well. Like anyone needs to bring home 4 a day.
My smokehouse will hold 50 silvers.
I'm sure it will. And an indian's net will hold 500 silvers. What is your point Chief Fishhead5 Runningwater?
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Quote:
Luke_the_Drifter said:
And these are hatchery fish we are talking about, assuming large returns the hatcheries will fill their broodstock quotas quickly. These fish are raised by taxpayers cash, so why not allow the taxpayers to reap the benefits of a bumper crop.
True, however there are always rivers around the state that have very low returns and could use some of the egg intake. Billyjoe River has 4 fish limits while Skunknuts River is closed because they aren't expecting enough. Skunknuts could get opened if billyjoe river donates some of their eggs intake from the massive run. Then Billyjoe river won't be as crowded, people won't have to travel across the state to catch a silver.
The NF Stilly runs short of summer runs all the time. They get eggs and fry from the Skykomish river. That means the sky is getting tons of extra fish. Should they raise the limit to 3 steelies? No, spread em' out. We have enough crowding going on as it is.
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CastawayChris
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Quote:
NickVellios said:
Quote:
Luke_the_Drifter said:
And these are hatchery fish we are talking about, assuming large returns the hatcheries will fill their broodstock quotas quickly. These fish are raised by taxpayers cash, so why not allow the taxpayers to reap the benefits of a bumper crop.
True, however there are always rivers around the state that have very low returns and could use some of the egg intake. Billyjoe River has 4 fish limits while Skunknuts River is closed because they aren't expecting enough. Skunknuts could get opened if billyjoe river donates some of their eggs intake from the massive run. Then Billyjoe river won't be as crowded, people won't have to travel across the state to catch a silver.
The NF Stilly runs short of summer runs all the time. They get eggs and fry from the Skykomish river. That means the sky is getting tons of extra fish. Should they raise the limit to 3 steelies? No, spread em' out. We have enough crowding going on as it is.
Have to say, the guy has got a good point here fellas, we do it here on the Peninsula extensively, why not else where!
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Luke_the_Drifter
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If there is egg sharing going on, then that sounds like a good plan to me, and it makes sense, amazing that anything is done that makes sense these days.
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CastawayChris
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Now only if we could get WDFWM to understand this! Maybe a future CCA topic of discussion! Aunty, ur thoughts please! Egg sharing in rivers with low returns or almost non existing returns vs. higher limits on rivers with high returns, it would be in our favor to do an egg sharing! Maybe do both, drop it to 3 and do some egg sharing, or is that not such a good idea!
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KingFisher85
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"True, however there are always rivers around the state that have very low returns and could use some of the egg intake"
LOL, you guys have so much to learn...Sure, here is 100,000 coho eggs from the NF Lewis/Cowlitz...You take them up to one of your many OP rivers...sorry bud, wont work like that...Mother nature wont let it happen, F&G knows it, I know it, look it up if you don't believe me.
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Luke_the_Drifter
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Quote:
KingFisher85 said:
"True, however there are always rivers around the state that have very low returns and could use some of the egg intake"
LOL, you guys have so much to learn...Sure, here is 100,000 coho eggs from the NF Lewis/Cowlitz...You take them up to one of your many OP rivers...sorry bud, wont work like that...Mother nature wont let it happen, F&G knows it, I know it, look it up if you don't believe me.
Then how is it that the Cowlitz has a summer run steelhead program? There never was a native summer run on the Cowlitz and the original broodstock came from either the Wind or Washougal River, I can't remember. So, the facts are, that eggs from one system can be used in another. Why wouldn't it work on the OP?
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NickVellios
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KingFisher85 said:
sorry bud, wont work like that...Mother nature wont let it happen, F&G knows it, I know it, look it up if you don't believe me.
That is not true. It is done across the state already. Some strains adapt better than others. Skamania summer steelhead for example will adapt to pretty much any river that is wet, but a native summer steelhead from any other WA stream won't. They don't take for whatever reason.
The fact is that it is being done already. You think Coho, Chinook, Pink, Winter/Summer steelhead are native to the great lakes?
And not just the GL area. Cascade River Spring/Summer Chinook broodstock are taken from Diobsud Creek. Same river "System" two completely different tributaries from two completely different watersheds.
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Don't let me forget SF Nooksack Coho original broodstock was not taken from the SF Nooksack. The tribal hatchery I am almost positive they got them from one of the Samish hatcheries back in the mid 1900's when they were still processing Coho.
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Luke_the_Drifter
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Quote:
KingFisher85 said:
LOL, you guys have so much to learn...
LOL, Evidently not from you....
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Gooose
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Because the state has tried just that for decades and it did not work. Didn't work for Coho, Chinook nor Chum.
The Skamania steelhead summer run stock on the other hand has been successful in establishing self sustaining runs in the Cowlitz, Wynoochee and Green rivers.
Chambers Creek winter fish on the other hand generally can't survive without a hatchery.
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Gooose
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Nick there is probably a high degree of genetic relationship between runs within a basin and also between adjacent basins. Why? It's called straying.
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Gooose
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SF Nooksack and Samish basins are back to back watersheds and probaly share the same headwater sources from groundwater and runoff. 
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Gooose
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WDF tried stocking Hood Canal chums in the Nooksack for years. Didn't work.
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NickVellios
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Quote:
Gooose said:
SF Nooksack and Samish basins are back to back watersheds and probaly share the same headwater sources from groundwater and runoff.
SF Nooksack is fed almost exclusively from Mt. Baker. Samish is fed from runoff alone. No spring/summer/fall snowpack or glacier runoff for the Samish. They are also very different as far as spawning grounds. The samish even in the upper stretches is muddier, tight small gravel and silt with little flow whereas the SF Nooksack's upper spawning grounds is fully of softball-basketball sized boulders, swift runs so how a fish can switch between those two but not another doesn't make much sense.
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Quote:
Gooose said:
WDF tried stocking Hood Canal chums in the Nooksack for years. Didn't work.
Why? The nookie has one of the biggest runs of chums in the state.
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Gooose
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Actually it's not all runoff. Genetic tests of fish from adjacent rivers often find genetic connections due to straying.
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Gooose
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At the time it didn't.
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Gooose
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The state tried for several years to establish wild runs of spring chinook in Hood Canal in the early 90's using Sol Duc stock which we all know are NICE fish. Didn't work.
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Gooose
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Anyone care to guess why the HC chum didn't work in the Nooksack?
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KingFisher85
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I'm talking about COHO here bud! Not fast water trash fish...A summer run steelhead is about like a sqawfish...Will grow in a ditch if you give it food, O2 and cover...
Look it up and do your home work, I did it for 2 freakin years. Outbasin stocks are not the ancwer!
There are streams that will take an outbasin stock just fine, but most of the time, they wont...Say if you take an inland stream and plant fish on a costal stream a 100 miles away, your not gonna get any place very fast!
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Gooose
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Another problem. If Podunk river with a hatchery run of coho is expected to get a low unfishable return this year what would bringing in eggs from Bodump river do for that fishery this year? Nothing. Will it mean a fishable return next season? Maybe maybe not.
Next problem. A river in Puget Sound has low numbers of native coho and no hatchery fish. Do you really believe flooding said river with hatchery smolts from a Columbia river trib is a good idea? Especially if it brings on a crowd?
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Mojo
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Geeee uncle Gooose, wouldn't the hatchery smolts outcompete the nate smolts for food, further depleting the native run?
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AuntyM
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Ding ding ding!!!! I think we have a winner.
Tell the man what he's won Gooose! (I bet it's dirty moderating job!)
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Gooose
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Why yes they would.
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Aunty  .
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AuntyM
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Hey, let somebody else be Guido once in a while!
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Gooose
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So you'll notice that someone asked for your opinion on the subject. Care to post it?
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Kingfisher, just for the record, i was referring to the coho and steelhead stocks being interchanged here on the peninsula, not from SW WA streams and peninula streams! I talk to the hatchery staff on a few streams i fish every year just about and they tell me of Bogey fish being taken elswhere and eggs being trucked to other hatcheries! Also between the Dungy and Elwha! I've heard nothing negative from them on the program they run!
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Gooose
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Bogey hatchery steelhead are Chambers Creek stock as are nearly all winter hatchery fish in the state. Not all but pretty much all. So where do we need more of those?
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AuntyM
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Quote:
I've heard nothing negative from them on the program they run!
Would you expect them to bash their own work?
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Marty
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chambers creek..
Don't matter how many you put in a system if your overharvesting the ones your trying to save before they get in the river. shut down the sporties and let the coyotes run the hen house.
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Gooose
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The more hatchery fish put in a river the more native fish that are going to die.
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Marty
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perhaps but if they released them with supplementation it should negate the food requirements for the out journey.
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Gooose shhh... you don't want people to understand all this? I don't think many of them can handle the truth.
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AuntyM
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Marty, what about food requirments in the ocean? Isn't there still a problem with hatchery plants consumption of biomass after they migrate out?(AKA poor ocean conditions)
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Gooose
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True to a point Marty. There are a number of other strategies that could also be used to minimize negative competition/interaction between hatchery and wild juveniles.
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Quote:
NickVellios said:Cascade River Spring/Summer Chinook broodstock are taken from Diobsud Creek. Same river "System" two completely different tributaries from two completely different watersheds.
I thought they were from the Suiattle.
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Marty
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I can be but the nutrients are normally much greater in the salt. How long do you have to wait to bring the cycle back up to its peak? if your continuing to downtrend you need to bump it in all areas that will make a difference. Best habitat with no nutrients and over harvest keeps the down cycle going. Our escapement goals need to include required biomass year round in the river systems for the natives to survive. Our calculations are on spawning pairs not the feed needed to sustain those smolts. Until programs are in place to reverse the trend of down biomass in the river system. WE NEED DEAD ROTTING FISH LINING THE BANKS
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Brewer
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huh, yea! i see, but hey what about that for fish limit huh? huh! yea!!! how about a october kalama tilla? who ever fails to limit 4 silvers has to spend the night along banks with rotting biomass.
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CastawayChris
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That would be hilarious!
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cupo
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With a 4 fish limit it'll be time to break out the yella rod!
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ABUfreak
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ugh, every time they raise the limits during fall salmon season, it's like ringing the jethro dinner bell and all of the yokels come running with their snagging gear...
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Trouthead
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Quote:
ABUfreak said:
ugh, every time they raise the limits during fall salmon season, it's like ringing the jethro dinner bell and all of the yokels come running with their snagging gear...
There's gonna be tons of yokels out. It's a Humpy year.
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fishdoc
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Lets just go yokel watchin' Trout...
Humpies = salmon on a trout rod! FUN!!!
doc
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Trouthead
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The Yokel Circus is fun to watch. You learn some amazing things.
The ultra lights were a blast last time. This year I'm using my Noodle rod and 4 lb.
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Luke_the_Drifter
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If hatchery smolts outcompete native smolts, then why can't hatchery smolts grow up and spawn naturally, thus taking over a stream? Do they have poor eggs/sperm? Unable to build a proper redd? Or are they just losers because they grew up in a concrete tank? Like a city kid trying to make it in the country.
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Trouthead
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Hatchery fish spawn in the Skookumchuck each year. That could be one of the reasons there are so many Nates in the upper Chehalis.
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ifish365
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i sure can't wait to drift some eggs for some chrome silvers this fall... they are expecting a strong run this year??
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Mojo
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Hatchery fish do spawn. The smolt just don't thrive. The issue we have here in Idaho is that the strain of fish the IDF&G used as foundation stock in the hatcheries here were McCloud River fish from California. They were chosen becuase they survive well in cement ponds. They are not genetically adapted to survive a 700 mile journey down the Salmon, Snake, and Columbia to the ocean. They suffer a high mortality somewhere in the upper-mid Columbia. They also don't do well in the sterile rivers of central Idaho. They never have. It has historically taken millions and millions of smolt released to get enough hatchery fish returning to have a fishery. Obviously after 50+ years, the wild genetics have crept in, and only the strong survived, and now these A-Run fish are returning at a moderate rate. Funny observation though, the A-Run Hatchery survive at less than 1% return, and the Clearwater hatchery fish (of native stocks, B-Runs) survive at 3-5%. Much higher, but not good.
The B-Runs that spawn in the upper main Clearwater actually do have decent survival. The South Fork fish don't have a measureable survival of smolts, but water quality, lack of forage, and siltification of spawning habitat ensure there are few survivors.
I'm not a biologist, but I read up on my local water, and stayed in a Holiday Inn once...
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Luke_the_Drifter
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That's some good info, Joe. I'm not a biologist either, but I did pass out in the brush once...or twice.
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Ihookum
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There's nates in the upper Chehalis beacuse nates spawn there.
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Fishhead5
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Quote:
NickVellios said:
Quote:
Fishhead5 said:
Quote:
NickVellios said:
Oh well. Like anyone needs to bring home 4 a day.
My smokehouse will hold 50 silvers.
I'm sure it will. And an indian's net will hold 500 silvers. What is your point Chief Fishhead5 Runningwater?
I like smoked fish, just because you don't want that many fish doesn't mean someone else doesn't. I have never figured out why some people give a rip about how many fish someone else wants to take home.(I think that would be my point) Everytime my sister comes to town I lose 4 or 5 packages of fish. The same with Dad, and lot of other people that come over.
I do like that new name "Chief Fishhead5 runningwater"
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Salmo_g
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Trying to remember the thread topic here, . . . oh yea, 4 fish coho limit this fall in SW WA. Those fish are hatchery fish. Wild coho are obvious by their general scarcity on the LCR and its tributaries due to decades of wipe out fishing by the gillnet fleet. As most of you know, hatchery runs can sustain a higher harvest rate than their wild run brethren. The result is that few wild coho return to the Columbia. That is turning slightly with ESA listing of coho and the restoration program on the upper Cowlitz, but well over 90% of the returning coho are still hatchery origin fish.
Because they are hatchery coho, annual smolt production is roughly the same, regardless of whether it was a dry summer or a wet summer, because the hatcheries keep those juvenile fish wet. So the adult run sizes are primarily influenced by ocean survival and the ocean harvest rates. The ocean harvest rates are set at a level to protect the wild coho stocks mixed in with the hatchery fish. So when ocean survival is really good, very large runs of hatchery coho return to the Columbia tributaries and their hatcheries. Because of ESA listings, the gillnet fleet can't do the usual wipe out fishery and mop everything up. They are limited to 3-5 days per week, which is still to much for the wild coho, but that's another topic. The result of slightly reduced gillnetting is large runs of hatchery coho to the Cowlitz, Lewis, and Kalama, and a few others. These run sizes far exceed the natural spawning escapement goals for these rivers - if theses rivers even had natural spawner escapement goals - they don't (see wipe out fishing mentioned above).
The upshot is that the daily bag limit on hatchery coho in large return years is irrelevant on these SW WA rivers. It could be 4, 6, 10, or 20 a day, and it would't make any difference to future run sizes. Water conditions and the non-snappy nature of a lot of hatchery coho end up limiting the recreational harvest anyway, so bag limits are probably important because of the yokel and snagging references mentioned earlier in this thread.
Sincerely,
Salmo g.
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Marty
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Thanks for directing this back on track 
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CastawayChris
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We need to get Salmo and Snagly together and stick them on the CCA, if only Brad lived closer lol! Awsome info Salmo!
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CastawayChris
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Hey also, Welcome to our fishing community Salmo, looking forward to reading much more of ur threads in the future and seeing what u have to offer on this board, again, keep it up, ur knowledge is always nice to read here and on PP!!
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BorntoFish
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Quote:
CastawayChris said:
Hey also, Welcome to our fishing community Salmo, looking forward to reading much more of ur threads in the future and seeing what u have to offer on this board, again, keep it up, ur knowledge is always nice to read here and on PP!!
 
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AuntyM
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Oh yeah, Hey Salmo. About time.
You DO realize there is no "circus" here unless you ask to be admitted to the droolers den? That's where the bad boys hang.
Oh, and we have a dirty joke forum you can't access without asking too.
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Desertdog
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Always nice to see Salmo G post informative information... and nicer when its here.
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Gooose
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Thanks Salmo. One of the problems with our current hatchery system is that they can generate due to ocean conditions returns far larger than needed for egg take and beyond the means of a reasonable sport fishery to harvest. The need to protect wild fish further limits the ability of commercials to harvest those hatchery fish. I suspect the 4 fish limit will quickly become a six fish limit once those LCR hatchery fish flood in to those rivers. Yokels will arrive in droves and the annual snagfest will be spectacular.
Personally I enjoy every chance to partake of ChiefRunningWaters excellent smoked salmon. Locally a good portion of my hatchery coho catch has always gone to feed a handful of elderly people who are essentially incapable of harvesting their own fish but absolutely enjoy a meal of fresh coho.
The other subject raised in this thread regarding interbasin transfers of hatchery stocks deserves and should be in it's very own thread.
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Pug
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While I dont think that I can offer such an insightful comment as Salmo, four fish limits are cool. I do not take that many home for myself but they do have ways of ending up in other peoples smokers and ovens. So it is not a really bad thing. And since Salmo pretty slammed the whole topic in the pooper pretty hard, lets go knock the piss out of them and have fun.
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Fishin fool if I can find the fools to fish!
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Brewer
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i too love 4 fish limits on quality fish. four kids who eat like piglets! hell yea! they gobble fresh fish down!! baked, gone! bbq'd, gone! smoked, gone! who ever made that lame comment about who needs that many fish doesn't have 2 teenagers and 2 whippersnappers in his house i tell you what.
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ABUfreak
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salmo's post about hatchery coho being non-snappy raises a pretty interesting point. how many fish do you actually see out of places like the cowlitz, puyallup etc any more that are taken by legitimate methods(i'm not talking the 10' leader crowd)? i could venture as far as saying that if the limit was 1 fish you wouldn't see much of a difference.
unlike on little rivers like the skokomish, where if one knows how to work a spoon or vibrax, can fill a 4 fish bag limit rather quickly...
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AuntyM
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Quote:
Personally I enjoy every chance to partake of ChiefRunningWaters excellent smoked salmon.
Hey, you rarely see me whore anything, But ChiefRunningWaters smoked salmon will have me thinking up all sorts of schemes to get my hands on some.
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fishdoc
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Brewer...wait tell them whippersnappers are teenagers!! My three teenage boys can make so much food disappear so incredibly fast! We love it, we only get to do this once so we have a lot of fun with our human vacumns. They contributed awfully well this year with two elk, six deer (Montana) and the oldest boy put 30 silvers in the freezers just by himself...yes Cowlitz silvers will bite...ask him...oh wait...he wont tell.
So keep enjoying the ride Brewer as I know you are!
doc
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CastawayChris
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This is against my morels but here I go!
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CastawayChris
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Quote:
Gooose said:
Locally a good portion of my hatchery coho catch has always gone to feed a handful of elderly people who are essentially incapable of harvesting their own fish but absolutely enjoy a meal of fresh coho.
I too do this and to people who don't know how to fishor to fish as good as I or are just beggining!!!
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Musicman
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If the run will support 4 fish....I'm all in....this isn't a 401k program...what doesn't get harvested, WILL die! plain and simple! I hope to fish with many of ya and get 4 a day! CYA on the river!!!
Tight lines...
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JD
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AuntyM
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Quote:
If the run will support 4 fish
I hate to spoil everyone's fun, but that's exactly the "preprogrammed" response our fisheries managers hope to see. In reality, those "excess" fish might be better utilized for nutrient enhancement in many of our rivers. Those marine derived nutrients could be the "actual" missing link in recovery efforts. It took a lot of dead fish to feed generations of native salmon and steelhead. I seriously doubt there is a single fish bio out there who can say for certain how many is too many.
Just want ya'll to think about the future and how we might need to change our perspective if we really want to make a difference.
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Musicman
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While I agree M, not every fish is caught...I personally dont know the %, but i'm confident it's minimal compared to the run projection? I may be way off base?? To me the powers to be would factor in catch rates vs escapement vs the spawners that will feed the next generation of smolts?? If not, they aren't doing their jobs or not listening to the fish bio's? 
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Marty
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The fish are normally slated for removal so they don't compete with the natives/cross breed etc... Rivers are void of nutrients with out something dying/rotting in them. If we remove all the nutrients that can support our smolts we are left with beautiful habitat without food. Like having beautiful pasture with nothing but gravel to feed the cows.
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Musicman
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Thanks Marty, I was assuming the hatchery fish that aren't removed......didn't think the hatchery guys gave a crap after they met their goals...if my assumption is wrong then I can understand AM's point. Thanks.
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Salmo_g
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Thanks for the friendly comments.
AuntyM,
When the daily bag limit is raised to 4 or 6 coho, it's because the terminal area run size is really, really large. The effect of the increased recreational bag limit is inconsequential on the escapement for both reproduction and even as marine derived nutrients. As many as 85,000 coho (some wild, but mostly hatchery) have been trucked to the upper Cowlitz, which is far more than is needed for natural spawning. So plenty of coho nutrients were obtained even with a 6 fish limit that year. Currently, I think they may be restricting the upper basin to 35,000 surplus hatchery coho plus all the wild return. I may not have that exactly right, but you get the idea. In the end, it seems that the increased bag limit only accounts for a few thousand extra coho in the sport harvest, which is a small chuck out of runs greater than 50,000 to the river.
Other rivers that have bag limits raised will be for the same reasons, but the respective numbers are different.
The comment about inter-basin transfers was mentioned a couple times. Such transfers were once common. In some cases it creates more problems than it solves. The state and tribes and feds have become more restrictive about that in response to better information about ecosystem management and frankly, to reduce the spread of fish diseases. I think at this time inter-basin transfers are limited to within regions, like lower Columbia, coastal, and Puget Sound. I'm not sure, Hood Canal may now be treated separately from the rest of Puget Sound, altho they share the same hatchery stock origins.
Sincerely,
Salmo g.
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Marty
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On the solduc they use the excess hatchery salmon to toss into the river for added nutrients. Usually this can be seen if the tail is chopped off the carcass. Some are frozen to float downstream before sinking. There is also a fear of using salmon from one system in another because of the spread of disease. Bio's are aware of this stuff and the latest trend seems to be more focused in this area and studies.
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AuntyM
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Salmo,
The problem is, you guys don't REALLY know how many is enough. Mother nature did, and when we try to second guess her, more often than not, we get it wrong.
Quote:
The state and tribes and feds have become more restrictive about that in response to better information about ecosystem management and frankly, to reduce the spread of fish diseases.
Same group is telling us the resource can support the current level of harvest, and I'm not buying that either. 
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Musicman
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"Mother" nature is over rated...is there a baseline on this?j/k M...you know me...you guys do bring some good thoughts to the table though~ still, if I can keep 4,i'll give it a second thought....
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JD
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Fishhead5
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I derived nutrients from those fish
Mother Nature's cycles are up and down. If there are "too many" fish, the smolts won't have enough to eat and die, fish ducks eat well and have more young, they eat more fish. Pretty soon there aren't many smolts, which mean more food, less predation. The cycle starts over.
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Fishhead5
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Limit all U.S. politicians to two terms:
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Musicman
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true D, does that mean we're gonna go fishin?
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JD
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NickVellios
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Looking back at the historic runs of salmon and steelhead should give a pretty good idea of what a river system can support, right?
X river used to have 50,000 steelhead 500 years ago and now has 5,000. It worked with those high numbers before we got involved and started over harvesting.
Granted the system has changed a lot because X fish eats Y fish and Y fish numbers are low so X fish numbers can't grow. But when you have differences in runs that are as drastic as they are in every river in washington there should be some room to grow, shouldn't there?
If a river has 175,000 coho come up it each year and 7,000 steelhead, technically can't the steelhead numbers go up to 25,000 and the coho numbers go down to 158,000 and balance out fairly well? Winter steelhead and coho spawn around the same time and spawn in similar water (the far upper stretches of the watershed) so they are both hatching within a couple months of each other and a couple feet from each other.
Why can the Umqua support runs of up to 20,000 steelhead but increasing the hatchery steelhead in the big ol' skagit by a couple thousand is such a devistating thing to the ecosystem?
I am not a fisheries biologist, I don't know the answers. But someone who is please shed some light in detail if you know the answer bucause that has been bugging me for as long as I can remember.
Tim Tim, you have a degree in Icthiology don't you?
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AuntyM
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Another case of you guys buying into the "programming". 
If those "excess hatchery fish" are no good for the environment and carry diseases detrimental to native fish, WHY ARE WE RAISING THEM AGAIN?
It sure ain't so you can take home 4 instead of 2.
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Gooose
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Nick it isn't just what the river is capable of but the estuary it enters and then the ocean.
Room for growth in numbers? If there is I'd rather see it dedicated to wild fish as especially for Puget Sound steelhead thats a train that's rapidly going to come around the corner. We don't take care of that I'd be more concerned about simply having hatchery steelhead opportunity rather than increasing it.
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Mojo
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Nick, I think Tim has a degree in boat sales...
Historical runs do not necessarily correlate to current watersheds. Things have changed for the negative in our rivers.
It is more than just what the hatcheries are producing. It is how many nutrients are in the river, how shaded certain stretches of the river are, how much woody debris there are in the estuary rearing areas, how many squawfish, smallies, walleyes, terns, cormorants, seagulls, seals, and crawdads eat the smolts. It's about drift nets, purse seines, troll fisheries, gill nets, and sports fishermen. It's about dams. It's about fertilizer and channelizing rivers into concrete lined canals. It's about all the little things that you and I, and every single person that lives in a drainage that supports any anadromous fish do to affect the rivers and aquifers that feed them.
I agree that nutirent rich rivers produce more viable smolts. I think the "extra fish" that "trap" at the hatchery should be killed and the carcasses should be wired into the streambed. Hell, I'd be glad to come over and help work on that project. I'll have 3 or 4 days of leave left over at the end of the year. Raising the linits of hatchery fish on the major tribs isn't gonna hurt this effort too much. If WDFW enforces the anti snagging laws, and makes a big deal of busting a bunch of people, it will run off the MAJORITY of the unethical snaggers, and add money to the states coffers. Plus it would more than make up for any fish hauled out of the system by ethical means.
Habitat is KEY! Protect the trees around the rivers and tribs. Keep the waterways shaded. Promote key rearing areas in the estuaries. Keep the oceans free of drift nets and seines. Controll the ocean troll fisheries.
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Marty
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Habitat is key but we have some high quality habitat that doesn't have enough fish in it. Most of the OP head waters are protected or in a national park. Yet we still experience decreases in returning fish far below historical levels.
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Marty said:
Habitat is key but we have some high quality habitat that doesn't have enough fish in it. Most of the OP head waters are protected or in a national park. Yet we still experience decreases in returning fish far below historical levels.
Think maybe it's over-harvest...Nets???
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I believe it to be nets as the main cause on steelhead and the escapement goals don't leave enough margin for error on low water years, and subtiming runs of the species. I know this because we target the subtiming species and they have declined but are not recognized on timing only as "winter run".
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mojo, snaggers are a moronic lot. not the brightest folks in the fishing ranks. i've heard of snaggers getting dinged on the kalama, only to get a 2nd ticket a day later.
personally as far as carcasses in water sheds goes, it would be nice if every fish that was spawned in a hatchery. every carcass be tossed back into the river itself.
isn't a alaska law that all filleted fish carcasses be tossed back into the river? somewheres i, ooops sorry brewer heard that a long time ago.
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NickVellios said:Why can the Umqua support runs of up to 20,000 steelhead but increasing the hatchery steelhead in the big ol' skagit by a couple thousand is such a devistating thing to the ecosystem?
I believe it was the winter before last that the hatchery steelhead return on the Skagit was from a smolt plant bigger than the Cowlitz received. I think it was over 500,000. The returning run was nothing special. Something in the system is limiting the number of returning fish.
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I believe Cupo is 100% correct.
Nick, you do realize that part of Oregon's attempts to recover native coho have been to increase nutrient levels and that includes the Umpqua? When you take steps to recover one species with nutrients, you're likely taking steps to help steelhead and other salmon as well.
One of the factors helping Umpqua steelhead AND coho is the reduced numbers of striped bass.
Just one more reason it's hard to compare river "A" with river "B".
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So Aunty...could your solution recommendation be as simple as ending all hatchery production and letting fish recover on their own without harvest until viable?
Doc
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The Umpqua is a world class smallmouth fishery. Why, you might ask? Well those introduced, non native predators eat hundreds of thousands of smolt every year. Same reason the John Day has issues (or one of the reasons).
There are no single reasons for the declines in fish runs on specific rivers. They are all combinations of things. I keep "preaching" that we need to work on the issues we can control, and then push power organizations like the CCA to work the big political issues. The little things like cleaning up the riverbanks, not throwing your old line in the river. Remembering to throw your fish guts in the river. Leaving a strip of riparian habitat if you own land. Planting trees on river banks and screening irrigation diversions. Little stuff that adds up over time. If every single one of us did one little thing once a week, three things would happen. 1) Things would improve for our fish. 2) Others would follow our example. 3) It would become a habit, and it would be a step toward (make the transition easier) doing bigger things.
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Quote:
cupo said:
Quote:
NickVellios said:Why can the Umqua support runs of up to 20,000 steelhead but increasing the hatchery steelhead in the big ol' skagit by a couple thousand is such a devistating thing to the ecosystem?
I believe it was the winter before last that the hatchery steelhead return on the Skagit was from a smolt plant bigger than the Cowlitz received. I think it was over 500,000. The returning run was nothing special. Something in the system is limiting the number of returning fish.
same goes for the puyallup/carbon. in 2005, it had roughly half the amount of fish planted as the cowlitz and the returns were incredibly dismal. sure, the river's screwed up but i don't think a whole lot more has changed since the early '80s(other than orting turning into another project housing mecca in the last 3 years), when steelhead returns were in the 10,000ish range
i think there's something going horribly wrong in the sound.
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Quote:
So Aunty...could your solution recommendation be as simple as ending all hatchery production and letting fish recover on their own without harvest until viable?
Looking at what Oregon did with the coastal native coho, they reduced their hatchery plants by something like half on average, worked on the habitat which included adding nutrients back, and had no ocean harvest on coho other than mortality associated with the chinook fishery. Amazingly enough, it seems to have worked. There will be a commercial season on them this year for the first time in more than a decade.
I find it amazing that this is not being considered a success story as yet. It may not BE considered a recovery at least to historic levels, but the goal should be truly sustainable fisheries with improvement over time.
One other thing I am concerned about. How will Gary Loomis's Cedar Creek fish fair in all this upcoming harvest? With THAT many coho returning, what will the commercial fishery look like? Sporties get a carrot dangled in front of them, and turn a blind eye at what the commercial season will look like in order to harvest all those excess fish. So many that most will be cat food or fertilizer probably. You can bet those Cedar Creek coho will be in the mix.
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Nick, that's why I put too many fish in quotes, I don't think any of these rivers have seen too many fish for quite some time.
When the Quinaults wanted to build their river back up (this was years ago) the first thing they did was bring the dog salmon back, they provided the nurtients for the river.
One thing I do find interesting is, Oregon has banned throwing any fish remains into the rivers.
MM I'm ready!!
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Nick,
Looking at the numbers (if we had them; mostly we don't, so we have to estimate) of fish abundance historically, say 1850, is no indication of what the rivers can support today. Every river's habitat has been compromised severely. That has reduced both its capacity and productivity, salmon carcasses notwithstanding.
Also, you cannot "trade" coho abundance for steelhead abundance on a one-to-one basis. Fish species partition the available habitat in streams, using different niches so multiple species can be prolific. Of course, there is inter-species competition as well as intra-species competition, along with dependent and independent mortality factors that help control fish populations. That said, juvenile steelhead tend to be habitat generalists, willing to rear most anywhere, while coho are very specific to pool type habitat with structure, like large woody debris. Decreasing juvenile coho production might increase juvinile steelhead production, but then again, maybe not if the juvenile steelhead are benefiting from the added productivity of the adult coho carcasses. It is complex, and I cannot say what would happen.
The Skagit returned close to 20K steelhead (16K, if I recall) in the late 1980s, and it may again. The difference between the Skagit and the Umpqua is that the smolts travel different paths to the ocean. Skagit steelhead, and all Puget Sound steelhead, appear to presently be limited by there early marine survival in or near Puget Sound. Umpqua steelhead migrate directly into the ocean, like our coastal steelhead, and don't experience the same limiting factor(s).
AuntyM,
My comment regarding fish diseases was with respect to limiting inter-basin transfers within regions, rather than sending them just anywhere as was once done. Transfers between regions have generally been unsuccessful or less successful than by staying within a region.
Nobody knows how many carcasses is enough, or too many. Where there are limits, the number tends to be well above the carrying capacity, in part to try and get at that issue of "how much" is enough.
I'd look for the Cedar Creek coho to get hammered in this fall's LCR coho season. If there are restrictions to protect ESA coho, they will fare better than they otherwise would.
Marty,
It's important to measure run sizes in terms of total recruits, not just the number returning to the river. All the Hoh chinook and coho, for instance, that are caught off the coast or in BC or Alaska are still part of that river's productivity, being produced by whatever spawning escapement the river receives. I'm not saying that the runs are at historic sizes - they aren't - but I'm suggesting that you're probably not counting all the fish that comprise a population.
Since few steelhead are caught in the ocean, that doesn't apply to that species. Steelhead are probably limited by declining habitat capacity and productivity (even park rivers like the Queets have many miles of tributaries outside the park that have been hammered by logging) and a fisheries management objective like Maximum Sustained Harvest (MSH/MSY) that empirically doesn't work. However, MSH doesn't even try to maximize population size, just harvest, which may seem counter-intuitive. MSH is a management plan for smaller populations than the available habitat can support. Further, MSH leads to declining populations over time, yet many harvest managers are advocates for it.
Sincerely,
Salmo g.
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You're on Doug, it'll just be nice meet you and to see what Aunty has been raving about for so long.
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Marty
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Salmo I realize we lose a lot of the king/cohos to commercial/sport in the ocean. Are we experiencing bycatch issues with the steelhead?
I know the foreign 10 miles drift nets of use to be a major concern. It seems like we can point fingers at where the fish are going but can't stop the declines. Which leads me to point my finger at the MSY/MSH issues for all the species. Are the court rulings the reason bio's feel that is the correct path? I don't think the logging practices of today are the major issue anymore with the protections we have in place and are being used as a scapegoat on the habitat job creation front.
Habitat in the estuaries of Hood canal appear to be more viable than pugetropolis, provided they can solve the oxygen level issues.
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I agree that logging gets a bad rap. The South Fork of the Toutle River is a nice example of how logging and fish can coexist with proper land use practices. The river basin is completely surrounded by land that has been logged twice in some cases or currently being logged. It supports a nice run of steelhead and salmon and has some of the clearest water you can imagine. With proper road building techniques and harvest practices, silting of spawning beds can be stopped.
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