Gooose
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I believe the primary problem for wild steelhead is that they are a more complex animal than the all of the other salmonids in regards to life histories. Although chinook are right near them in that regard. Once they start losing that complexity they become more vulnerable to extinction. Hatchery fish generally don't have the complexity that wild fish do as they don't need them to survive as long as there is a hatchery. Not totally true as there are examples of some hatchery stocks such as our Skamania summer runs performing quite well in the absence of a hatchery.
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Marty
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redneck yachter
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viable ecosystems depend on those fish that were overharvested years ago. The continued reduction of escapement all year round species creates a desert of nutrients and the ability to sustain any growth in population base of the "steelhead". All species need to be apart of the equation of a system, yet we overharvest all species and then look at steelhead to say.. threatened.
Fish eat other fish.. fewer returning smolts get targeted easier to reduce returns. By catch in the nets/commercial fisheries is a huge issue with me and I see it on the subruns here on the olympic peninsula. Just because we count redds at spawn time doesnt mean they all return at that time period.
Steelhead is a easy one for me to point at the nets in the river... where are my november natives? december natives? Thats right we are harvesting silvers hand over fist with steelhead bycatch that is meaningless cause the spawners will show up to count in februrary... Its total bs and lack of acknowledgement of subruns in our systems.
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Marty
Got Your Steelheader.net stickers?
Pay it forward
Steelhead dues paid one cast at a time repeated a 1000 times a day...one more cast looking for a fix
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Marty
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redneck yachter
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When I say they need the fish nutrients its the ecocosystem that actually needs the dead fish which inturn supports the smolts, with protection and food (insects). The health of a stream can easily be measured by the nutrient instect levels on the bottom. You give me insects I give you fish food to support streams black with fish to be overharvested again..
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Marty
Got Your Steelheader.net stickers?
Pay it forward
Steelhead dues paid one cast at a time repeated a 1000 times a day...one more cast looking for a fix
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Quillback
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I don't see this "threatened" listing being anything but symbolic.
And IF, in my opinion a big IF, PS steelhead numbers somehow recovered to abundant levels, then the netters would start targeting them.
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I'd rather be fishing
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AuntyM
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Quillback, I agree. What concerns me is that nothing has changed in the management arena and unless it does, the SW and OP rivers are going to suffer the same fate eventually.
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Quillback
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Yep, I fear for those runs also.
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I'd rather be fishing
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camodrifter
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dual red striper
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I fear for the entire population of pacific salmonids in the western hemishpere! everything needs to be done to protect these fish now! I live here in Idaho and I have seen the political bull [**whoops**] continue. I have seen billions of dollars spent on bullshit solutions that have gotten us nowhere. What we need is for the entire sportfishing community to come together on every issue that we face. Populations declining in one part of the west just means that there is less of a chance that populations will be recolonized in other places. we also have to realize that these complex systems took millions of years to build and we ( and in we I mean each and every single one of us) have all but eliminated them in a matter of 200 years. Bullshit if you ask me. IF all you want is to harvest fish then go catfishing, and get the hell off of my steelhead and salmon streams!
Nothing will ever get accomplished if the sportfishing community does not band together to fix the problem! this problem is going to take generations to fix, not just a few years. just because you have not seen results in 15 years does not mean that it will never happen! IF we look at historical #s then I feel almost every stock of pacific salmonids should be put on the endangered species list!
sorry for the rant, but I think yall are bithin over moot points. lets get something done!
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set em and net em
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Trouthead
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"Nothing will ever get accomplished if the sportfishing community does not band together to fix the problem!"
"IF all you want is to harvest fish then go catfishing, and get the hell off of my steelhead and salmon streams!"
1. Ask people to band together
2. Bad mouth fishermen other then Steelhead/Salmon
3. Claim ownership of a river
#'s 1, 2 & 3 don't work together. I can tell you right now that the Bass people have more money and power then the Salmon/Steelhead people cause they have banned together for the good of the fish. They don't care if you are a boater, tournament guy, fly flopper or bait person. To them it's the fish. They also support "Slimmers" (Salmon/Steelhead), Catfish and Walleye because they understand that all fish live together.
By the way, I do harvest Salmon/Steelhead and will continue to do so.
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Trouthead
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camodrifter
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dual red striper
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that was not my point! I too harvest fish! and lots of them. my point was that if more harvest is our only goal, we will loose site of the real goal of conserving resorces.
thats it again sorry for the rant. get myself a little fired up sometimes!  
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set em and net em
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AuntyM
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Oh I'm REALLY going to piss off camodrifter.
You people screwed up your own habitat. Don't blame us.
Sorry, I HAD to say that. I don't believe it for a minute but habitat been shoved down our throats so much, I plan to mock it as long as it takes to get it dropped as an exucse to throw our arms up and do nothing...
We ARE trying to help you eastsiders. Honest. And, you DID join CCA, right?
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Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
http://www.ccapnw.org
The Monster Breathes!
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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camodrifter
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dual red striper
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I also love to catfish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what I do when no salmon and steelhead fishing. gotten quite fond of it over the years. not bad mouthing anyone! and never claimed ownership of a river, just wanted to make the point that greed is what has ruined our natural resorces for years!
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set em and net em
Team UI
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camodrifter
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dual red striper
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AuntyM you underestimate me! We did screw it up, and really bad! I understand your point, but I feel like we need to look at a more holistic approach, with all aspects coverd. nets catch our fish too! I am with you!
and i would never blaim any one group! Just maybee a few federal dams, and a few operated by Idaho power. but thats for a different time and place
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set em and net em
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Trouthead
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I hear ya Camo and I think we agree.
I would like someone to identify the current habitat distruction and the effects of that distruction on the Puyallup, Green and Nisqually systems. No-one is targeting Nates on any of those systems and there are not any dams causing problems so where are the fish? Mud Mountain Dam on the White has been there since before Bolt and there were fish then. If there isn't any current distruction and Nates are allowed to spawn cause nobody is targeting them, then there should be fish.
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Trouthead
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fishdoc
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Thick Tail
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Trout,
I have thought about this alot today. Though I can't answer for the Puyallup and Green. I do believe that Nisqually is way dirtier than it was when we were chitlins. My hunch is that mud has covered up or at least affected spawning habitat. Just my personal observation.
doc
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If we always do what we've always done, we'll always get what we've always gotten.
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AuntyM
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BTW, I think we settled the "harvest" issue elsewhere so I don't think Todd wants to talk about it anymore.
Trouthead, Musicman, White... I mean Gooose and I will have lots to talk about this morning while we're waiting to pull pots.
Troublemakers...
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Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
http://www.ccapnw.org
The Monster Breathes!
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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fishdoc
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Thick Tail
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Have fun pullin pots...what a gang!!
new name for the boat...or its first name??
Troublemakers...it has a ring.
And yes...I think we did settle the harvest issue...any clue why that is and was so hard??
doc
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If we always do what we've always done, we'll always get what we've always gotten.
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Gooose
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Logic, commonsense, rational thought and riverbank biologist science can be a painful experience for some to deal with. 
Off to pursue wild  that shall all get a boiling water shampoo.
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Independent Advocate For The Fish
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It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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Quillback
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Did somebody mention catfish? Funny, I'm thinking of going over to Grand lake in Oklahoma this Saturday. It's known for big Blue Cats and plenty of channel cats. Also has quite a few white bass. All eminently bonkable and fryable.
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I'd rather be fishing
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jimh
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I bet a lot of these empty rivers would support channel cats...just kidding...
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Marty
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redneck yachter
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Goose please release the unclipped antennas ..
Nisqually.. how much bycatch is occuring in the chum/silver fishery?
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Marty
Got Your Steelheader.net stickers?
Pay it forward
Steelhead dues paid one cast at a time repeated a 1000 times a day...one more cast looking for a fix
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camodrifter
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dual red striper
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catfish, the fish of the future!  
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set em and net em
Team UI
Clearwater Crew
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Todd R
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Gooose and Aunty...
Horseshit...don't pull any muscles patting yourselves on the back...maybe you can pat each other and lessen the strain?
Fish on...
Todd
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Marty
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redneck yachter
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Todd looks like they got your attention again.. lol
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Marty
Got Your Steelheader.net stickers?
Pay it forward
Steelhead dues paid one cast at a time repeated a 1000 times a day...one more cast looking for a fix
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Todd R
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A little, I guess...as I stated before, I'm done running in circles with the "it's all about the harvest" crowd, especially since there is virtually no harvest taking place right now, and in most cases there hasn't been for years.
Back to your regularly scheduled back patting...
Fish on...
Todd
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For all your fishing hardware needs!
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jimh
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Todd, you have a good time patting yourself, too! 
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Wear a PFD if you want to live.
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Gooose
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Sorry you aren't capable of anything other than that kind of response Todd. You do seem a bit disturbed by people who disagree with your opinions
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Independent Advocate For The Fish
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It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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Gooose
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'Scuse me Todd but you really need to unquiver that lip and go back and read my posts again....I did say that in general water quality and habitat degradation are the primary causes of our recent declines. Harvest and predation effects that I pointed out are river specific and yes limited at this time to a few rivers.
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Independent Advocate For The Fish
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It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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Gooose
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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA
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