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River Fishing >> Goverment & Science and Fisheries Management  

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GoooseModerator
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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: Todd R]
      #288648 - 05/09/07 02:39 PM

And am I her keeper? Nope. And was I discussing what someone else says? Nope. I was addressing your response...simply that and nothing else. I don't really care if someone else pulls someone elses hair on the playground.

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Todd R
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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: Gooose]
      #288649 - 05/09/07 02:41 PM

I'll ask again, then...you don't really think that's the only response I am capable of then, do you? I invite you to go back and read this, and the other ten, threads from the beginning.

Fish on...

Todd

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GoooseModerator
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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: Todd R]
      #288650 - 05/09/07 02:46 PM

Oh score one for you! You still haven't been able to address the primary points I made.

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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: Todd R]
      #288651 - 05/09/07 02:51 PM

Read those...and again I repeat you haven't been able to address my points by anything but responses with no relevance to the discussion. As pointed out your recent several posts seem somewhat irritable.

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Todd R
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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: Gooose]
      #288656 - 05/09/07 03:28 PM

Not irritable in the least...and just to be clear, you're not my keeper, either, yet still felt compelled to comment on my apparent demeanor...are such comments only reserved for those who are disagreeing with you?

The reason that I have only responded by stating that the comments are irrelevant is that they are...well, irrelevant. Not really much more to say on that...

Fish on...

Todd

P.S. Should I add in more emoticons to show that I'm not irritable?

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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: Todd R]
      #288659 - 05/09/07 03:47 PM

Todd, you should probably stay away from these though.

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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: jimh]
      #288664 - 05/09/07 04:03 PM

I promise only to use the "happy" emoticons...for the time being, that is.



Fish on...

Todd

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GoooseModerator
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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: Todd R]
      #288689 - 05/09/07 06:40 PM

That works.

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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: Todd R]
      #288691 - 05/09/07 07:02 PM

I persoanlly think it is long past time for PS steelhead to be listed and for serious action to be taken. Persoanlly I think ALL the PS salmonids should be listed. The ecosystem appears to be badly broke. With little harvest going on the Steelhead #'s continue to fall. Orca's living in the PS/Gulf of Georgia area are dying due to starvation?? Starvation...J and K pods travel to Montery Bay Calif this winter searching for enough salmon to sustain them... When the top predator is nolonger able to sustain itself there is a problem.. A BIG ONE. We screwed things up really bad and it is not going to be painless to fix it.

We continue to harvest all salmonids to the supposedly Maximum Sustainable #'s Quess what... it aint's sustainable.

All of these fish are interdependant on the others for thier continued existance. The Steelhead is perhaps the canary for all of the Salmonids using Puget Sound and its watershed. It has been telling us for a long time that something is wrong here.

Its more than the harvest/non harvest of Steelhead.. its the harvest of the forage.. Its the harvest of the interdepentant species. Its the harvest of the lumber in the watershed. Its the harvest of the minerals out of the hills of the watershed.

If you want to say its not the harvest..fine . If you want to say its the habitat ... fine.. but think about it this way.. We,mankind, have havested the habitat into extinction or will if we continue on our current path.

My personal felling... with not much scientific data to back it up is that we need to stop the harvest... stop harvesting the salmonid. Stop havesting the forage. Stop havesting the rearing grounds for both of these. I belive Mother Nature will fix what man has done.. given enough time. I don't want to have to wait for her to get the job done. I want it to happen tomorrow.. I would settle for 7 years. (thats when I retire)

Some of the problems in the PS and its watershed are not fixable at this time .. The toxic soup that lays in the depths will be with us for a long time.. a testament to our own stupidity. The forest will regrow and the rivers will clean the silt from the spawning beds if they are allowed to. Dams can be removed. Fishing can be curtailed. What are we willing to pay inorder to beable to watch our grandchildren catch their first steelhead or to watch them as they marvel at the fall spectacle of salmon marching up all of the stream of the Northwest toward their spawning grounds.

I know that fisherpeople can band togeather to bring about change. Its been done. If ever there was a time for the fishers of the Northwest to become one voice now is the time.

If you havent joined CCA yet get on it.

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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: Gooose]
      #288692 - 05/09/07 07:11 PM

Pssssttt... Todd, you told us wild steelhead harvest had to stop and so did the WSC when you tried to pass WSR. The WSC said the effects of over fishing might not be known for YEARS. It did not say one, maybe two years.

Do I need to post the quote from the WSC white paper here too?

The way I see it, you guys were either lying then about over fishing (same as harvest), or you're wrong about the long term effects of that harvest on today.

I'm betting on the WSC white paper being correct about the effects of over fishing, not you.

Was that enough emoticons Gooose?

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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: AuntyM]
      #288720 - 05/09/07 09:16 PM

Actually, what you need to do is back up a few posts and see where Gooose and I already discussed that, and already dismissed it, too.

Fish on...

Todd

P.S. I did the quick reply, so no emoticons...sorry for that.

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MartyAdministrator
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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: Todd R]
      #288721 - 05/09/07 09:19 PM

quick reply has that feature too

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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: Marty]
      #288755 - 05/10/07 05:20 AM

Yeah Desert Dog you make a good point, the whole ecosystem is messed up. Dunno if it can be fixed. I was reading that the PS region will add another 1,000,000 people in the next 10 years. Not good news for salmonids.

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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: Todd R]
      #288757 - 05/10/07 05:49 AM

Quote:

Todd R said:
Actually, what you need to do is back up a few posts and see where Gooose and I already discussed that, and already dismissed it, too.

Fish on...

Todd

P.S. I did the quick reply, so no emoticons...sorry for that.




I don't see Gooose addressing or dismissing my point at all. Nice try. You've been claiming it isn't harvest then or now. We know that isn't the case. How do we know that? Because the WSC said so.

http://www.wildsteelheadcoalition.com/home.htm

Quote:

Escapements for several north Puget Sound rivers were not met in 2000, nor in 2001, in
spite of the fact that the parent generations for these returns had met MSY spawning escapement
goals. The long-term consequences of overfishing in 1999-2000 will not likely be known for many years. The short term consequences have included complete closures for March-April wild steelhead release seasons for north Puget Sound rivers in 2001 and may be repeated for at least
the 2002 season.




Maybe you shouldn't try to continue arguing a point you already lost?

Serving two masters, the RFA and the WSC while supporting his good buddies, the state PSA makes him look a bit conflicted most of the time. I guess it makes him take one position a few years ago, then deny the things he posted on this very board a few years later about harvest during the WSR wars

And I'm not the only one who remembers it Todd. Especially on THIS board.

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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: AuntyM]
      #288765 - 05/10/07 07:32 AM

I haven't addressed Aunty's points at all Todd. One shouldn't assume that we two are are making the exactly same argument under the heading of a large subject such as harvest.

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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: Gooose]
      #288783 - 05/10/07 08:55 AM

I have never, not once, said it was never harvest...not one time.

What I have said, repeatedly, is that harvest has already been all but stopped, so wasting time talking about harvest is, well, wasting time and energy.

If it's important to stand around finger pointing at things that aren't even occurring now, just to make some sort of point, then I'd say "go for it"...if it's important to actually address the problems that are now facing PS steelhead, I'd say skip the stuff that isn't going on now, and focus on the stuff that is.

Fish on...

Todd

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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: Todd R]
      #288829 - 05/10/07 05:00 PM

Quote:

if it's important to actually address the problems that are now facing PS steelhead, I'd say skip the stuff that isn't going on now, and focus on the stuff that is.





Like hook and release mortality maybe? ESA listed steelhead should be protected from molestation by the elitists IMO.

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Todd R
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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: AuntyM]
      #288832 - 05/10/07 05:21 PM

Well, at least you're finally getting to your emotional center after blasting off in all directions for a few months...

Elitists? You are making yourself into the butt of your own joke. I don't know if you are interested or not in taking some sort of leadership role in the CCA, but I can guarantee you this...until you stop being personal and emotional about every single issue and person, you will be just as effective as the other guy who does that...the guy who is the butt of every joke in fisheries management due to acting just like you have been since the CCA came on the scene.

He doesn't do himself or the fish any good whatsoever, nor will you, until you first figure out what you are talking about, and second act at least a little professionally, since you will be dealing with professionals who will have absolutely no time for you if you aren't.

Carry on...

Fish on...

Todd

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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: Todd R]
      #288843 - 05/10/07 06:39 PM

Look who is getting personal Todd!!!!!! Not to mention personally insulting. At what point did I ever claim I wanted to be in a position of leadership in the CCA? In fact, I've posted elsewhere that I'm not interested and you're aware of that. Interesting that you try to throw it in my face.

BTW, you did make the claim that harvest was not part of the current problem, do I need to quote you? Past harvest is part of today's problem and it's still happening on other rivers.

You lost the debate but you damn sure can't take it like a man.

C&R of a threatened species is far worse than bonking wild steelhead on rivers that have a so called harvestable surplus. Can we expect the WSC to propose closing all the listed rivers to C&R? Somehow, I doubt they'll DO THE RIGHT THING.

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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: AuntyM]
      #288845 - 05/10/07 06:48 PM

All fishermen have lost this debate with the overharvest, nobody wants the blame for it or the pain to fix it.

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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: Marty]
      #288848 - 05/10/07 07:04 PM

Marsha, I know this will sound like a broken record, since I've said it to you so many times over the years...do your research.

After that, come back and let us know what the effects of catch and release fisheries are on recovery of stocks...maybe you can even take a shortcut and ask Gooose, as I'm sure he knows.

Not knowing what you are talking about is a lot worse than just keeping mum.

Fish on...

Todd

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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: Todd R]
      #288851 - 05/10/07 07:09 PM

Todd wait till ya see the nets across the Sauk this next march/april. Perhaps harvest will get your attention at that point.

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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: Marty]
      #288856 - 05/10/07 07:26 PM

Todd, you mean like saying I should "blah blah blah" if I plan on being in a CCA leadership postion when I wasn't planning on it?

You'll get little respect here if your only debate tactic is character assasination. I don't need to be an expert to go find your WSC experts comments that fly in the face of YOUR claims.

Now let's move on to "selective" fishing unless your "condition" prevents it.

http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/07/05/10/100loc_a1fish001.cfm

This one is for chinook. You know, the other endangered species?

Helping fish or hurting them?
State, Tulalips disagree on whether wild chinook should be released

TULALIP - Mary Jack was a commercial fisher as long as she could manage it.

When salmon prices fell and fewer fish found their way into her nets, Jack knew she, like so many others, had to leave the water.

Now, she's part of the Tulalip Tribes' effort to revitalize the region's salmon runs.

Jack dips her weathered hand into a man-made freshwater pond and pulls out baby chinook salmon that measure no more than 2 inches long.

When she finds smooth backs where adipose fins once stuck straight up, she smiles.

It's Jack's job to make sure the two dozen tribal members standing in white trailers are snipping the fin off each and every one of the tribes' 1.3 million chinook hatchery salmon.

"This is the next best thing to fishing," she said.

For each marked hatchery fish that's lifted out of the water by sport or commercial fishermen, one wild salmon can continue zipping through the region's waterways.

Unmarked salmon caught in certain areas must be returned to the water. That's the state's way of encouraging salmon runs to return to the levels that once made this region famous for a seemingly-endless supply of the fish.

At least, that's how it's supposed to work, said Kit Rawson, a fisheries biologist for the Tulalip Tribes.

Evidence suggests that more wild fish die when they're caught and released than the number of hatchery fish that are caught and kept, Rawson said.

More wild fish may survive if fishermen simply kept what they hooked or netted, instead of throwing back half a dozen wild salmon they know may die in the process, he said.

The state has initiated two-year pilot programs for selective fishing: the first began in 2003 in the Strait of San Juan de Fuca, and the second began in 2004 in the Port Susan area, near the Tulalip Indian Reservation.

Last month, before the Port Susan program completed its final year, the state suggested that selective fishing be widely expanded.

"The Tulalips and other tribes would have preferred to stick with the two pilot fisheries we have now until we have a few more years of information," Rawson said.

In the first year, one fish died in the catch-and-release process for every hatchery salmon that was kept, said Craig Bowhay, a policy analyst for Northwest Indian Fisheries Commission. During the first part of the second year, up to eight fish died for every hatchery fish kept, he said.

"It's killing more fish than it's bringing in," Bowhay said. "That caused us some pause, and we felt we should be conservative in our expansion of selective fisheries."

The state disagrees.

State wildlife officials say they've got plenty of data to support an expansion of selective fishing areas.

Pat Patillo, a state fisheries policy analyst, said the tribes are manipulating the data for their own purposes.

The numbers the tribes are using have "nothing to do with mass marking or selective fisheries," he said.

In fact, he said, those numbers may indicate that salmon runs - both wild and hatchery - are strengthening, he said.

The Tulalip Tribes aren't against selective fisheries, Rawson said. They just want to be sure that the methods fishermen use to release the fish don't hinder wild fish.

In the annual fisheries negotiations last month, the state and the tribes agreed to a limited expansion of selective fishing zones.

Meanwhile, the Tulalip Tribes' hatchery and fishery departments continue to farm 11 million fish each year: 8 million chum, 1 million coho and 1.8 million chinook salmon.

The 1.3 million chinook salmon tribal members have been marking for four weeks now started in incubation tanks at the Bernie Kai-Kai Gobin Salmon Hatchery on Water Works Road in the Tulalip Indian Reservation.

Hatchery workers change the water temperature, which creates an otolith mark - much like the rings in a tree trunk - on the ear bones of each fish.

That's the only unique mark that sets Tulalip hatchery fish apart. Because of that mark, Tulalip officials say they know that at least 90 percent of the tribes' catch comes from the tribal hatchery.

After the hatched fry grow a bit, workers add anesthesia to the water in the tank.

Hatchery workers scoop the fingerlings up into buckets and carry them into one of two trailers, where two dozen seasonal employees wait with tiny scissors in hand.

They clip off each fish's adipose fin - a small fin on the fish's back, in front of its tail. The fish then slide through a long tube into a freshwater tank.

From there, they're transported by truck to a pond near Tulalip Bay, where they'll grow for a few more weeks before they're released into the bay in June.

After they grow to adulthood and return, tribal fishermen will cast nets and pull the salmon out of the water to sell, eat themselves, or offer to tribal elders.

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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: AuntyM]
      #288866 - 05/10/07 08:41 PM

Typical of you to act like a scorned teenage girl, Aunty, every time someone gets under your blouse.

Please re-read the above post, and you'll see where it says...

"I don't know if you are interested or not in taking some sort of leadership role in the CCA..."

You, and Bob, are getting to be each other's alter egos over the past few months...making stuff up, twisting facts, and the more you are shown to be talking out your ass, the more you get vociferous about defending the fabrications.

"I don't know" now means "You are"...eh?

Like I said, typical...and like I said, the more you talk, the more you become the butt of your own joke...

No, really...we're laughing with you, not at you.

Fish on...

Todd

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Re: Puget Sound Steelhead listed as Threatened under the ESA new [Re: Todd R]
      #288871 - 05/10/07 08:48 PM

One factor that is and will be conveniently ignored is unaccounted for harvest mortali