hollywood10s
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I am looking at having a custom rod built on either a loomis or rainshadow blank. The guy at the place Im getting a rod built said that both are very good blanks. He compared the rainshadow XST to the G-Loomis GL2. I just wanted to see if people agree with that and how you would compare the two types of blanks. I would like to have the best blank possible and I didnt know if there are any rainshadow blanks that are comparable to the IMX or GLX? Thanks for the help. I do a lot of coastal steelhead fishing and I will be having three steelhead rods built. I would like as light of rods as possible. Thanks for the help.
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luv2fish
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Duh.....Rainshadow!
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hollywood10s
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steelie
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Is there a difference in weight, sensitivity, strength? Common help me out. Why would people put the xst on the same level as a gl2 blank? I want people who have used both to help me out too. I would love to use rainshadow, but Im the kind of guy who wants to spend money on the best (that doesnt always mean the most expensive).
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Hollywood
Steelhead Stalkers!
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CastawayChris
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Oh my, for starters, never compare a GL2 to an XST! The XST is comparable to the IMX and GLX, i have a lot of friends and rod customers who say the same thing and are very impressed with Rainshadow XST! Rainshadow's standard is a little higher than the equivalent of the GL3 Loomis! The Forecast line is the rod that are of the same calibur as the GL2's! I have fished every series of rod that Loomis, Lamiglas, and Rainshadow have to offer! Here is a summary: Lamiglas is outta the running unless u step it up to the Titanium series, Loomis IMX and GLX's are so very close to the Rainshadow XST that it hard to tell the difference to most! The XST is the lightest of them from my knowledge, but then again i don't build loomis' because i want the best for the money and also don't want to pay the jacked price of loomis'!!! If ur saying the Rainshadow is gonna be more expensive than the loomis', u got the wrong rod builder! A factory GL2 runs $175 to $225 depending on the model of the rod, a custom forecast equivalent to the GL2 will save u up to $50!
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CastawayChris
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Oh and i'm just about finished with an XST1143 complete with titanium VS3 guides and woven graphite handles and reel seat! Also completing the sites Kalama Tilla raffle rod which is an XST1264, both the finest of rods! Batson Enterprises Rainshadow/Forecast is also a supporter of this site and does a strong job of it as well, so as a fellow member, i will always be for Rainshadow!
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hollywood10s
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No, no I wasnt saying that the rainshadow are more expensive I was saying that the builder said that the rainshadow are on the same line as the GL2. I dont know one from the other. I am coming from using kistler rods for bass and trout. I am steelhead fishing alot now and want to get some rods built and want the best for the money and just the best! Thanks for the info.
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Hollywood
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Trouthead
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Rainshadow is a good line but Chris works with them so he might be a little bias.  One thing about a Rainshadow is that if you had a problem you could go right to the manufacturer.  
Also, I think that the guy who ties the rod can have a major influence with how well it performs, right Chris?
As some of you know, I'm kind of anal on some things including my gear. Being a Bass guy, I like having the correct tool for all situations which means I own a few rods.
Now, I would like to know exactly why a Rainshadow is better or worse then a Loomis and exactly why Lammi is out of the running. The explanation that I want is specific, not personnel opinion. I am a composites Engineer so I understand such things such as filament lay-up, fiber construction, types of resins and matrix construction. I own several brands including Loomis, St. Croix and Lammi but no Rainshadow’s yet. Can anyone help me out here?
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Harry
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I have built numerous Steelhead rods from both the Rainshadow XST and Loomis IMX and it is difficult to directly compare the Rainshadow XST and Loomis IMX. Blank for blank the designs are very similar. The difference is primarily in the materials. The Loomis IMX employs a lower modulus of elasticity graphite than the Rainshadow XST but it has graphite scrim (every other layer is called scrim and is there primarily for hoop strength) while the XST has glass scrim. The XST uses high modulus of elasticity graphite in the butt section of the blank where the stress and strain is lower but uses intermediate modulus graphite in the tip section where the stress and strain will be higher. This is done because as the modulus of elasticity (stiffness) of the material goes up the strain energy (toughness) goes down.
The XST and IMX are going to be very comparable in terms of sensitivity but the Rainshadow is going to be more durable. The Rainshadow is also going to typically be much straighter and much less expensive. The Loomis GL2 is made of standard modulus graphite and the GL3 out of intermediate modulus and are not even in the running in my judgment.
I think that the Rainshadow XSTs are the nicest Steelhead blanks on the market. But I would not be too quick to dismiss the high end Lamiglas blanks. Lamiglas also makes some excellent blanks with mixed modulus material as well that are very close and have a wider variety of blanks than either Rainshadow or Loomis. The Lamiglas design trade offs are just a little different. Frankly, I think that the Loomis blanks come in third place behind both the Lamiglas and Rainshadow.
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Trouthead
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"The Loomis IMX employs a lower modulus of elasticity graphite than the Rainshadow XST but it has graphite scrim (every other layer is called scrim and is there primarily for hoop strength) while the XST has glass scrim".
Hmmmm, every other layer is either a glass scrim or a graphite scrim. What are the other layers made of? This concept would also require a pre-pack or hand layup rather then machine filiment winding?
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hollywood10s
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Good information. I am definatly leaning twards the XST. I can put the hundred or so dollars saved tward another custom rod! If the difference in performance is so minimal that you cannot tell its a no brainer.
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Hollywood
Steelhead Stalkers!
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Trouthead
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I'm still getting personnel opinion, I need technical stuff. For one thing, if the XST uses "glass scrim" then wouldn't it be a graphite/glass composite rather then a graphite composite? Where's Kerry on this?
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Trouthead
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Alaskan
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Quote:
hollywood10s said:
Good information. I am definatly leaning twards the XST. I can put the hundred or so dollars saved tward another custom rod! If the difference in performance is so minimal that you cannot tell its a no brainer.
Go with the XST and use the money you saved on better guides. Gett he lightest components you can and the rod will be more sensitive.
I'm building my first XST right now and am really blown away by it. It's as light as any GLX I've built, it's straghter, and it cost a third of the price.
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CastawayChris
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Lot said here, hope it helps ya hollywood! Steve, wasn't trying to say they were totally out, but the only one "IMO" that is equivalent is the Titanium series!
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Harry
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Trouthead,
Graphite blanks are not made using the filament winding technique that is used on some graphite golf club shafts. Virtually all graphite blanks are constructed from what is called Prepreg. The graphite fibers, that run straight up the blank, the resin, and the scrim, that is usually glass and usually is in a cross hatch pattern are all in the prepreg. The prepreg comes in big rolls and is cut into a pattern that depends upon the particular blank is then wrapped around a mandrel and then baked to activate the resin. Rainshadow, Lamiglas and Loomis blanks are all three made this way.
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CastawayChris
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I myself worked in Cascade composites and i ran the oven room, which was quite the job, got a nice scar to show for it (290 degree blank and mandrel fell from 12ft up and right onto my arm)! It was quite fun working there and gettin to do all the steps, i would have given ya an answer trouthead, but i knew Emory would have a much better way to give ya the rundown and he knows the terms better than i do! I have also made my own Titanium Lami blank at the Lamiglas factory as well at the Northwest Rod Building Show, that was fun to cut and glue the titanium shaft on!
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Brewer
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ok heres a thought instead of the nuts and bolts of layered graphite. who backs their rod the best in case of breakege? since rainshadows are not commercially sold as ready to fish unit. whats the turnaround time on a r'shadow? loomis has the rod expiditer that costs 50$ and a new rods comes in tube a day or two later.
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Trouthead
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Chris, come play with my Autoclaves, all sizes up to 90 ft. Great place to keep your lunch warm. 
Since everyone is using prepreg, I have 3 more questions.
1. Is everyone getting their prepreg from the same supplier and is everyone using the same prepreg makeup/formula?
2. Since we are using prepreg, this creates a seam and therefore a strong and weak side of the blank. Right? How does spiral wrapping work with this?
3. By "glass" scrim, do you mean fiberglass? This would make me think that the rods are not "Graphite" but "made with graphite", similar in concept to the Titanium Lami blank.
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Trouthead
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Harry
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Trouthead,
1. No, there are a number of suppliers of prepreg plus the larger manufacturers of blanks can order the prepreg with any type or combination of graphite fiber, scrim and resin that they prefer.
2. Yes, there is a seam and this is one of the things that contributes to the spine in a blank. The spine has a very small affect, even less so on a spiral wrapped rod.
3. Yes, the scrim in the vast majority of blanks is fiberglass even in the blanks of the rods that are sold as all graphite. However, the load bearing fibers, the ones that run straight up the blank are usually almost all graphite. The fiberglas fibers in the scrim are on average in the opposite direction, 90 degrees out, and are there primarily for hoop strength, strength against shear and torque.
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Trouthead
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Good stuff. Thanks for the information. Our composites are slightly different due to our use. We use prepreg, hand layup and machine layups of several types.
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Trouthead
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hmitchel
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Quote:
The Brewer said:
ok heres a thought instead of the nuts and bolts of layered graphite. who backs their rod the best in case of breakege? since rainshadows are not commercially sold as ready to fish unit. whats the turnaround time on a r'shadow? loomis has the rod expiditer that costs 50$ and a new rods comes in tube a day or two later.
I had a Rainshadow blank break last year, got it packaged up and sent in with a turn around out of their door in 2-3 days. The longest part was simply the transit time to and from the factory.
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Rainshadow
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Thank you Emory for the explination. I'm defenitly all for Rainshadow its a tuff one for me to jump into. If anyone wants to know more about the material used in most graphite rod blanks visit this site. There are so many variables but this gives a basic outlook on what we have available today as fare as a starting points then resin is added and is the key ingrediant to make them a fishable product. So modules does not mean a bunch after the fact in short. Don Mook taught me that many years ago and I'm sure most would agree that know anything about it. www.advancedcomposites.com
We try and take care of all consumer warranty claims as fast as we can because most of us here are fisherman as well and we understand that you need to get back out on the water. We do not charge a flat fee because in most repairs they are less then the $50 that other componies charge and I dont agree with there program because of there inflated pricing should cover at least one mistake you would think.
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Tony1831
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All this talk of layup, resins, fibers, and ovens reminds me of working in the plywood mills 
I'm glad those days are over.
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Harry
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Rainshadow, If I understand what you said then I very much disagree. Graphite is used for rods primarily because of its high modulus of elasticity and low density (low weight). Graphite has some problems, it is relatively soft and can be damaged with impact fairly easily and if it had higher tensile strength and strain energy that would result in fewer broken rods but overall there is no better material than graphite for most rod applications and it is mainly because of its high modulus of elasticity.
Yes, the resin can be a problem. The resin bonds the materials together into a composite but it has a very low modulus of elasticity. In fact, it must have higher strain or be more plastic as opposed to elastic (which is just another way of expressing low modulus of elasticity) because as a blank flexes the resin must be capable of at least as much movement as the other materials.
Modulus of elasticity is a property of the material not the structure (blank). It translates into stiffness and weight in the structure. So lower modulus of elasticity translates into less stiffness and/or more weight in a rod blank.
What do you want to do go back to Hickory or Bamboo? The big difference between them and graphite is in their lower modulus of elasticity.
That will be the day when I see you fishing with Hickory or Bamboo.
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hollywood10s
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Will Batson be designing a steelhead/salmon series using RX8+ technology anytime soon? I for one would buy many of them if the technology could be utilized in a steelhead rod! Maybe RX8+ in the butt and RX8 in the tip section. I dont know anything about rod design or what goes into it but I think it would be a sweet rod.
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Hollywood
Steelhead Stalkers!
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Brewer
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harry you a exellent addition to the sh.net family. good stuffs!
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Trouthead
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Thank-you Harry. This is closer to what my manuals say.
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Trouthead
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Will fish for food
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I have talked to Harry and have found it most usefull in my building. Thanks for all the Info you have shared over the years.
WFFF
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vangofishin
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So basicaly what we have here is the modulus of the rod as a finished product is affected by m |
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