jakerau
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1:1 in 08 Foaming at the Gills!
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Wow. Been slow here on the fly board. I'm in need of some adive on swinging. More particularly, how do you do it? I've caught big bull trout swinging streamers, but very few. I just dont have the touch I guess. Anyone give me some pointers on swinging, especially for steelhead. Thanks.
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Jake
www.flytymes.blogspot.com
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Mojo
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Only one thing to know, it's a 4 step process. 1) cast. 2) mend your line to get your fly swinging. 3) MAKE SURE YOUR FLY IS SWINGING IN FRONT OF FISH! 4) Hold on.
The nuances of mending your line to get the fly swinging corrrectly are something I could show you, but I could never describe here.
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Tight Lines,
Mojo
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jakerau
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1:1 in 08 Foaming at the Gills!
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Yeah, easier done than said in this case. Of course a sinking line helps, right?
My impression is that you want a bow in your line (heading down stream) unlike nymphing or dry fly fishing where you want to mend up-stram to reduce drag. Swinging is all about the drag, right?
Thanks.
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Mojo
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'Zactly. Downstream mend right off the bat.
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Tight Lines,
Mojo
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Steelheader69
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Yeah, what Mojo said. But have seen studies where it's been proven that the line sinks at whatever rate it's rated with a mend or not (I don't agree with it, but I'm not a scientist). Something to help you out with the swing is a weighted fly, or a sinking leader added to your sinktip. Only reason I suggest this is we have alot of deep water that can be a bit silty. You want the fly to get down fast. Problem alot of people have is they have an overly tied fly with a heavy sinktip but no weight with the fly. If you hate casting weighted flies like I do (though I will still fish them) is add a sinking leader to the sinktip. That way you have a short tippet to the fly that's slowing down your fly, not a longer leader/tippet and fly. Biggest mistake I've seen on the swing is not getting the fly down (using a slow sinktip with a super long leader/tippet in a deep slot is one of the biggest mistakes I've seen).
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Mojo
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Spot on SH69. I use 4 feet of 12 lb fluorocarbon as a leader on my tips. Too much mono lets the fly ride up. I also use sinking flies.
I just sent Denali a bunch of flies tied with lead wrapped underbodies AND 5/32 or 7/32 dumbell eyes. That'll get the fly down even if the guy is using a floating line. Many of the guys he guides on the Clearwater don't come prepared for all conditions.
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Tight Lines,
Mojo
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BobK
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NOW you guys got it! Yeah, we generally drift the fly downstream naturally, and let it sink, and GRADUALLY retrieve to bring it cross-current and upstream by just slowly increasing the line tension. A LOT of strikes come as the fly stops naturally drifting, and starts the retrieve. I think the fish think something spotted them and is trying to get away!
Anyway, it works well for me, so if it ain't broke, I just don't try to fix it!
BobK
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jakerau
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1:1 in 08 Foaming at the Gills!
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Weighted leader - never even seen such a thing. Available anywhere fly stuff is sold? Sportsman's? I'll have to check into that. Also, for my 6/7 set up I have one of those Versa-tip lines with multiple tips varying in sink rate. Maybe i will eave the 8 wt at home next time and take the ol 6/7. I have not yet caught a steelie on the 8 wt. i could not have landed with a 6/7, or even a 5/6. I just might have to be a little more patient.... and pray I don't get spooled on a big 20lber.
So if I stuck on my fastest sinking tip (depending on water depth I guess) and 3 ft. or so of leader, that should do it, right?
I do lead-wrap all my flies with the target water in mind, and do tie some with big barbell eyes. But still, it seems like the drag on the line keeps it high in the column no matte how heavy I go. I think this is one of those things where I just need to put in the time. I know I can catch fish nymphing and tossing spinners/spoons, so thats how I do it. I'd like to become a more compitent fly fisher though, and the swing is a staple. Got to perfect it. Anyway, thanks for the tips. Keep'm roll'n if ya got'em.
Jake
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BobK
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Jake, your leader allows the fly to rise. You want to keep it near the BOTTOM where the fish are! Experiment withleaders... a 3' might be OK, but depending on water, you may want a 2 1/2' leader or even shorter.
A lot depends on the FLOW! And also, mending the line is important in keeping it down, and that requires a little knowledge on your part of the flow, otherwise it passes above the fish!
Anyway, once you learn it, it is easier than it sounds. And when the line stops, STRIKE, and half the time, it will be a fish, not the bottom....
BobK
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Mojo
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Jake,
If you cast upstream and allow your line, leader, and fly to sink, once everything pulls tight in front of you your fly will swing up. Short of wrapping your line on a rock, your gear will never swing up. That's why we fight with lines that are too heavy to cast comfortably, we want our gear on the bottom. Physics sucks sometimes.
There are several tyoes of swinging flies. Swinging an unweighted fly on a floating line is far different than swinging a weighted fly on a 800 grain full sink shooting head.
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Tight Lines,
Mojo
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Steelheader69
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They actually make sinking leaders. I know you can order them out of Cabelas, and most fly shops should have it (not sure about Sportsmans warehouse). You can actually make your own out of leadcore trolling line. I only use about a 1' to 1 1/2' tippet on it max (the sinking leader is like an extension of the sinktip). You'll get a faster sink, since it's smaller/denser line adding to the sinking of the sinktip. Works pretty good for me.
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Mojo
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True deal, but they can change the way your line casts. Fluorocarbon leader material casts fine and sinks as well, just not as fast as leadcore. Good tips though...
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Tight Lines,
Mojo
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Steelheader69
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Mojo, I mentioned the leadcore because it's what I used to make before they made the sinking leaders. They don't throw your cast off much at all, if any. The ones I've used are very flexible and work pretty well. Just that most of the time when I'm running heavy sinktips, I'm tossing a 9 or 10 wt. So casting isn't a problem, since finesse isn't the key. LOL It's getting it to the slot to get er' down fast. But the ones I've used looked almost like a dacron type, just a bit dense and rolled the fly over pretty good.
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silverfly
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Holy crap batman, there's activity on SH.net fly board!!! I quit checking after I saw tumbleweeds rolling around in here.
Quote:
Mojo said:
Jake,
...
There are several tyoes of swinging flies. Swinging an unweighted fly on a floating line is far different than swinging a weighted fly on a 800 grain full sink shooting head.
I'm all for sticking to a particular technique, but I like to change up to fit the conditions. If the water is clear and the fish are active, then that's the time for swinging a floating line. It's far more enjoyable and you can get down fairly well with a long leader and fairly heavy but sparsely dressed fly if you need to.
It's all personal preference really but when the water's cold and the fish are hunkered down I'd rather throw in the towel and nymph it.
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NickVellios
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In my experience, you catch just as many winter/spring fish on 3' leaders as 14' leaders. Even in clear water. Fish that take a swung fly are aggressive and will take anything that gets in their face. I personally use about 6' leaders in clear water on the Skagit for spring steelhead and I use 6' just because, but I don't see any significant difference in fish hooked when using short leaders. For summer steelhead you will have problem as far as spooking fish in low clear flows. However in those low clear flows the fish are in shallow tailouts and riffles and getting a fly to depth with a long leader up to 14' is not a problem anyways so I go long in those situations.
I tend to wrap most of my flies with a lead. Sometimes only a couple wraps with real fine lead wire, sometimes a bunch of wraps with heavy wire. I'll usually tie 3+ flies of "X" pattern, one weightless, the rest weighted with different amounts of lead that way I have many options once I get to the river.
When I swing flies I like to do an upstream mend, let the fly sink and drift straight downriver before swinging. Some people like a downstream mend but I feel it swings too fast. A downstream mend pulls the fly across the fish's nose at such a fast pace that they often don't see it in time to react. Plus, it brings the fly at a perpendicular angle to the current which doesn't seem to entice fish as well as a fly that seems to be "swimming" with the current" This can be a problem on rivers like the Sauk, or Hoh where the best fishing can be in offcolored water. An upstream mend will let a fly drift directly downstream into a fish's face, and once it starts swinging it gives a slower presentation and lets the fly swim parallel with the current as a baitfish would be swimming naturally.
That is just me. I don't catch as many steelhead on flies as other people, so my info may not be the best, but it works for me. That's just the way I do things.
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Mojo
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Nick, you bring up a good point. No not the "I don't catcha as many steelhead on a fly as other people..." point.  The "...but it works for me. That's just the way I do things."
I think everyone needs to find their comfort zone. Some guys catch most of their fish at the end of the swing when everything is hqanging straight downstream, and the fly is just dangling there enticingly. Others catch more fish while the fly is almost dead drifting sideways to the current because it shows the biggest profile at that moment. Some guys get all their fish while the fly is screaming at full swing.
I do the things I do because they worked once, and I repeat success. 
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Tight Lines,
Mojo
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BobK
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Yeah, each day is different. Yet, my presentation ALWAYS includes an upstream mend (or two) to allow the fly to get down to the fish's eye level. Sometimes I fish it as a dead drift, then tighten up and let it come cross-current slowly, other times I first get it down and slowly retrieve it, and other times I just let it swing and move fast.
The reason for this is that fish change in what they want, and I try the different methods until I am successful, then I stick with it, and usually do pretty well.
It SEEMS to work fine, so I continue using these techniques, but you've GOT to be on fish. Empty water is useless, no matter how good it looks to you, and you can waste a whole day fishing on it! The FIRST requirement is to FIND THE FISH! Always remember that!
BobK
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jakerau
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Bob,
I am convinced that the reason I spent an entire season (last season) without a steelhead is because i was not on the fish. There is plenty of good looking water out there but like you said, "Empty water is usless..." It is all about reading water and being on the water at the right time. I am sure I have wasted hours on water that had no fish in it. Now that I am catching fish, I feel more confident in fishing up and down a run for 30 minutes and moving on if nothing takes, whereas before I would fish good looking water for hours without a fish. Now that I look back, it really does not make sense to stand there casting for hours when nothing is hitting. Good point, Bob. Got to be on the fish.
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Jake
www.flytymes.blogspot.com
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fredaevans
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Good posts above, but I'll add one thing: Cast, cast, cast .. then step down a couple of feet, then repeat the process down the run.
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Fred A. Evans
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jakerau
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Got to cover the water.
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Jake
www.flytymes.blogspot.com
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KOA
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Agree with the upstream mend for nymphing or swinging. You want to slow the fly or have it drift naturally. You will catch more steel via nymphing especially on small water. Cover the water and move on to find the fish.
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Pug
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Not to thread jack here but I have to ask this one question. I heard the phrase mentioned a thousand times here. MEND MEND MEND.
I have only been fly fishing for about 3 months maybe four. All self tought. And I dont have a clue as to how to mend. I have gotten by pretty well on the local rivers and lakes doing what I do. But I need to get this added to my arsenal as I am pretty sure that it is a basic skill. So can any one give me a really general idea on how this is accomplished?
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Fishin fool if I can find the fools to fish!
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Mojo
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Once your line hits the water, immediatley flip the slack in the line upstream. Sometimes it takes 2 or 3 flips to make sure the offering has enough time to sink to depth before the "swing" starts.
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Tight Lines,
Mojo
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BobK
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Right on, Mojo!
Make sure the slack line doesn't get ahead of your fly, so it drifts naturally! And if the line twitches or pauses where it starts to get down, STRIKE!
BobK
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jakerau
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My two cents: The slack line that Bob is talking about, if you let it stay in front of the fly, is going (1) cause your fly to stay high in the column, and (2) create and un-natural drift (the fly line down stream from your fly will end up pulling the fly along rather than letting it drift naturally as it would when mended back). It can get tricky. Some guys lift the rod high and toss the line back and over, others (myself included) use sort of a side-ways roll cast. No matter how you do it, just get that line back behind your fly so it can get down and drif drag free.
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Jake
www.flytymes.blogspot.com
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fredaevans
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Quote:
BobK said:
Right on, Mojo!
Make sure the slack line doesn't get ahead of your fly, so it drifts naturally! And if the line twitches or pauses where it starts to get down, STRIKE!
BobK
I'd make one exception to this ..... low/slow moving water. Here a down stream mend may be the better answer. What this does is keep you fly 'flat' to the current which gives the fish a longer (and larger) look at the fly(s).
Fred
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Fred A. Evans
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Mojo
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Good point Fred. Had a situation like that where I was fishing broken water last Friday. Had to mend downstream to account for the eddy lines and current lines. I was just trying to keep the line straight to the fly (dry fly fishing for trout).
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Tight Lines,
Mojo
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fredaevans
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