Gooose
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"I'm shocked! You're not suggesting that Gary Loomis might actually say something with a high impact emotional value that might not actually have any basis in fact, are you?"
Actually I am not suggesting any thing of the sort. What Grimm posted and the example I suspect that you are hinting about certainly do have "some" basis in fact in regards to Gary's statements. Todd I read the report on Cedar Creek btw....thanks.
Getting back to Alaska...both sides of the issues we have been so passionately and heatedly discussing have some basis in fact. Until both sides acknowledge and accept this the fish are doomed to the same old fate.
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AuntyM
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Quote:
What Grimm posted and the example I suspect that you are hinting about certainly do have "some" basis in fact in regards to Gary's statements.
The numbers may not be 100% accurate, but his take on these payments is spot on and shared but many. What other industry gets to keep crying every year that they don't have a good season and have to be shut down?
Funding for retraining and NOT a red cent more.
It's bad enough that commercial fishing and the hatchery production to support it has become the scam of the century.
Quote:
Hmmm hatchery Chinook are bad for their wild relatives? Well for Puget Sound those wild fish for the most part would actually be extinct rather than threatened or endangered if it wasn't for the fact that they are the direct descendants of Soos Creek-Green River hatchery Fall Chinook. If it wasn't for those hatchery fish continuing to stray some streams might not even have Chinook in them.
And Gooose, please provide evidence that it WASN'T the Soos Creek/Green River hatchery fall chinook that put the native Chinook in peril in the first place.  The science of the day doesn't back your theory up, and neither does the opinion of the HSRG.
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Gooose
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"And Gooose, please provide evidence that it WASN'T the Soos Creek/Green River hatchery fall chinook that put the native Chinook in peril in the first place. The science of the day doesn't back your theory up, and neither does the opinion of the HSRG."
I'll answer that with a simple question. Which came first in Puget Sound.....Unbridled commercial netting and development or the Soos Creek-Green River hatchery program?
Yes I know all about that science of the day stuff...it's the same science used to prop up the likes of HCSEG.
Actually it's not just the commercial industry that is screaming for those dollars but entire communities. Just as the communities that had their foundations built upon the timber industry screamed for help. Sure I have no problem with not helping them out.
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Independent Advocate For The Fish
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Simple Solutions to Complex Problems
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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AuntyM
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Quote:
Which came first in Puget Sound.....Unbridled commercial netting and development or the Soos Creek-Green River hatchery program?
And of course, my comment Quote:
It's bad enough that commercial fishing and the hatchery production to support it has become the scam of the century.
Applies to both your comments. The handwriting has been on the wall for DECADES that commercial harvest incomes were UNRELIABLE. Like the single woman who gets pregnant over and over again and wants a public handout because SHE made bad personal decisions...
not only no. HELL NO!
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Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
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"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008 
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Gooose
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and I do not disagree with you one bit in regards to those historical facts. Nor do I disagree with you in regards to bailing out the industry and their associated communities.  I have simply pointed out that in many of our Puget Sound streams the Fall Chinook stocks are the descendants of a single century plus old hatchery system.
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Independent Advocate For The Fish
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Simple Solutions to Complex Problems
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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AuntyM
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It's going to be a hard sell in DC, with so many people getting pink slips all over the country to bail out fishermen and their communities in CA and OR.
And nobody wants to talk about it, but the ESA is effectively tying our hands with NOAA F's dumb ass interpretation. We should manage healthy wild streams for wild fish production and unhealthy, hatchery contaminated cess pools for hatchery fish.
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Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
http://www.ccapnw.org
The Monster Breathes!
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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AuntyM
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Oh, and I hope Congress tells that jackass Schwarzenegger that de-watering rivers and expecting them to produce harvestable salmon doesn't work and they ain't giving his state jack.
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Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
http://www.ccapnw.org
The Monster Breathes!
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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Todd R
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You're not talking about a "misinterpretation of the ESA", you're talking about re-writing it to make it say something else that might better reflect our abilities to save some fish stocks...and to let some go that we can't.
The ESA doesn't allow that, but not because it's misinterpreted, it doesn't allow that because the very words of it don't allow for "letting some go"...to be sure, a lot of that is in the regulations and not in the statute itself, and perhaps re-writing the regulations on some issues would suffice.
I have a similar feeling about the ESA in a lot of its applications around here...it kicks in far too late, so by the time it kicks in there really isn't much left to save.
What would be refreshing, short of a re-write of the ESA, would be that the managers and other stakeholders would see the Draconian impacts of the ESA coming, and take it upon themselves to avoid the situations that require it being applied, rather than just as a matter of course attempt to avoid the ESA after it has become applicable.
Fish on...
Todd
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Edited by Todd R (04/25/08 09:44 AM)
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AuntyM
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Quote:
What would be refreshing, short of a re-write of the ESA, would be that the managers and other stakeholders would see the Draconian impacts of the ESA coming, and take it upon themselves to avoid the situations that require it being applied, rather than just as a matter of course attempt to avoid the ESA after it has become applicable.
The other stakeholders are NEVER going to try and avoid their impacts beforehand. I have no faith in my fellow man. Even "if" every WDFW manager only promoted "good" decisions, he/she would be fighting more than managing and I'm afraid we'd still find ourselves in the same mess.
Just look at how quickly sport fishers tried to turn this CR springer season into an gillnet overharvest or mismanaged season? The reality is, this has been the the best managed season since the CR reopened for springers.
WDFW can't please some of the people no matter what they do.
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Landslide: Stevie Nicks greatest song!
http://www.ccapnw.org
The Monster Breathes!
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008
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Quillback
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Quote:
AuntyM said:
It's going to be a hard sell in DC, with so many people getting pink slips all over the country to bail out fishermen and their communities in CA and OR.
I'm all for retraining and relocation help, but absolutely against paying commercial fishermen to sit on their butts all year so that they MAY be able to fish again sometime in the future. Every job has its risks.
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Can we get a new WDFW Director?
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Lead_Bouncer
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Im late to the game, but two things pop out.
Not all hatchery fish are clipped, since according to one of the folks at a regional office told me, they use non clipped fish to figure out some ratio. So the fake wild fish would have to be clipped. (Are those tagged)?
More wild spawner equal more wild return. Even if the hatchery catch was held at the same level, more wild fish would be caught as returns increase. I guess that would be a good problem. We would need very good traps.
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