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River Fishing >> Goverment & Science and Fisheries Management  

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Salmo_g
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I'm probably gonna' regret . . .
      #337163 - 06/18/08 03:50 PM

Mentioning this. I met Gary Loomis last night. He visited the South Sound Fly Fishers to deliver his CCA spiel. Having read so many emotional posts about CCA on this and other forums, I was curious.

His delivery was more crude than polished - more redneck than sophisticated. That seems to play well with the relatively uninformed audience in a charasmatic way. He uses and twists facts in an interesting way. He stated and his powerpoint presentation stated that dams are not the problem, but then was careful to mention that dams are not good for salmon. He and the powerpoint stated that habitat is not the problem. Harvest, and specifically gillnets, are the problem. He cherry picks his data, but then so do his opponents.

I spoke briefly with him afterward and said I disagreed with some of his facts but agreed with some of his conclusions. He seemed sincerely interested about my comment regarding his facts and asked me to call him or email. Afterward I thought about it, and except for the habitat statement, I had a hard time pinpointing errors of fact. Of course I might if I could look up some that he presented, but that's not my point. Rather it was the way he combined, spinned, and presented facts in contexts that changed their meanings.

For example, he had a slide of a Columbia River bowpicker catching spring chinook. We know the meaning is that wild ESA chinook and steelhead are being taken concurrently in that fishery. But he followed that with the well known slide of the Muckleshoot nets in the lower Duwamish last summer/fall that raised a lot of dismay and disgust to many, but didn't bother me at all. I know that fishery was for hatchery Green River chinook, and that satisfactory escapement is made every year. Powerful appearances, but deceptive in my estimation because the environmental impacts are so very different.

And to say that habitat isn't the problem, when in the case of Puget Sound, all scientific evidence indicates that higher natural spawning escapements wouldn't increase run sizes at all is misleading to say the least.

He avoided entirely the subject of reallocating fish from commercial harvest, yet spoke as if there were no inconsistency that there would be more fish for us (sportfishers) to catch when commercial catches are reduced, and more fish bound for the spawning grounds. I don't know if the term "mixed metaphor" is applicable here, but it seems like it might be.

Having thought it over, I wouldn't recommend that he change his presentation much, except possibly ommitting the most glaring errors. The field he's playing on is an interesting one. There are two contests, or wars, if you will. The first is the court of public opinion and policy. That war will not be won or lost on facts. So his emotional and charasmatic appeal seems perfect for the task. The second is the legal war. That will be won and lost partly on facts. Legislation via politics needs a few facts and a lot of positive emotion. The legal war in the courtroom will be decided on facts, and CCA will need a technical team to prepare a better factual case than Gary has.

Just thought I'd share my impressions even at the risk of beginning another CCA thread headed for lock up.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.


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Trouthead
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Salmo_g]
      #337168 - 06/18/08 04:26 PM

Thanks Salmo,
Seems like pretty honest impressions to me.

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AuntyM
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Salmo_g]
      #337170 - 06/18/08 04:31 PM

Quote:

His delivery was more crude than polished - more redneck than sophisticated.




That was EXACTLY what I thought! I think I expected a millionaire to be a tad more sophisticated I guess.

Gary is a man of many hats Steve. For instance... he KNOWS there are plenty of habitat problems and he doesn't hesitate to step in and get dirty. Remember, Fish First is still fighting Storedahl mines. He also had a starring role in one of the documentaries of the Pebble mining controversy for some "Fly Fishing" group. I bought the CD if anybody wants to borrow it BTW!

Thanks for posting the feedback for us. My impression of what Gary is attempting to do with CCA is give sport fishers the lobbying ability to rival any in this state. That can't be a bad thing and it's long past due.

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Todd R
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: AuntyM]
      #337178 - 06/18/08 05:16 PM

Sg, those are fairly close to my own impressions from the couple of times I have seen the PowerPoint presentation, and reflect the crux of my concerns, too.

The emotional appeals do well at gathering memberships, and may do well and swaying public opinion, as well, which is needed.

That being said, a massive 'war chest' that is used to fight in court will quickly be depleted with no successes at all if the emotional, and not altogether accurate stuff isn't left at the door and others who use facts and logical arguments instead don't take over.

The dangerous part at this point is that the vast majority of the CCA folks who I speak with don't realize the difference between the emotional appeals to build memberships and the facts required to actually get anything done, and I'm afraid they will be dismayed if they end up having to figure it out the hard way, which is by getting laughed out of negotiation rooms or court rooms.

Believe it or not, I'm still pulling for the CCA to be successful, because I'm interested in the fish and fishing more than anything else, but I still haven't seen much beyond the emotional appeal end, and that's not really where my interests exist when looking at advocacy groups.

As always, the proof will be in the pudding...we'll see where it goes once it is up and running.

Fish on...

Todd

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Lead_Bouncer
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: AuntyM]
      #337189 - 06/18/08 06:34 PM

I heard he didnt raise his pinky during tea and spit out the
pate de foie gras and sprinkled borax on the caviar. Did you have time for the Cello recital?

How dare he drive an AMERICAN GAS GUZZLER!
I hope you threw his sponsor out of your ultra fine club.


The first time I saw the 4 H list, it was Gary. Despite what you think you heard, Harvest is #1 There is a big difference between NOT THE PROBLEM and NOT A PROBLEM. I wonder what the Hydro power employees would say. Ya, we are number one. They will blame harvest and habitat.

Before the puyallup sportsmans show, I came up with the idea for a poster of the 4 H. Well Madrano ok'd it, had it printed, so that it was friendly to read and gary told him, it wasnt in the right order. Although Joseph agreed, it was easier to read based on the layout.

Dams are probably number two on the columbia, if there were no dams, the harvest problem would not disappear.

Run over to the skykomish and hatcheries are number two.
But you cant sell it like that to every crowd. We didnt have any rocket scientist as the sportsman show, but we signed up 133 new members.

All of this completely lets the tribe off the hook.

Regardless of presentation, harvest has been the number one problem on every coast including ours. If you dont drill that in, you dont have a consensus or a commitment.


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Lead_Bouncer
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Lead_Bouncer]
      #337191 - 06/18/08 06:49 PM

Todd, why bring up trial concerns. Youre grasping for anything that could fail. He wouldnt even be called as an expert. Hes not an attorney and they don't rely on local talent to uphold a legislative or public vote. Thanks for your concern.

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GoooseModerator
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Lead_Bouncer]
      #337200 - 06/18/08 08:02 PM

LB I disagree.

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boater
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Lead_Bouncer]
      #337201 - 06/18/08 08:13 PM

Quote:

Lead_Bouncer said:
I wonder what the Hydro power employees would say. Ya, we are number one.





if they are not the problem, why does the bpa spend millions every year for salmon management, according to you its harvest and not the dams.

Dams are probably number two on the columbia, if there were no dams, the harvest problem would not disappear.

a classic quote


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Todd R
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: boater]
      #337203 - 06/18/08 08:21 PM

"Dams are probably number two on the columbia, if there were no dams, the harvest problem would not disappear."

That opinion runs counter to every single piece of credible science ever conducted on the Columbia River watershed.

Fish on...

Todd

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Todd R
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Lead_Bouncer]
      #337205 - 06/18/08 08:32 PM

Quote:

Lead_Bouncer said:
Todd, why bring up trial concerns. Youre grasping for anything that could fail. He wouldnt even be called as an expert. Hes not an attorney and they don't rely on local talent to uphold a legislative or public vote. Thanks for your concern.




Maybe you didn't actually read my post...

The reason I bring it up is because many of the followers take Gary's word as gospel, and think that they will walk into a court room, repeat what he said, and Heaven and Earth will move as millions of more fish suddenly are spawning.

They don't seem to grasp the difference between the emotional appeal of a largely inaccurate, but very convincing sounding PowerPoint presentation, and the actual truth that will have to be used to get anywhere in actual life.

As I've said all along...good for selling memberships, not so good for actually helping fish.

Your comments about harvest vs. dams on the Columbia are a perfect example...Gary says harvest is number one, but Gary is so far from the truth on that call that is almost ridiculous to bring it up...however, here you are repeating it because you heard Gary say it.

That's my point...the followers believe that what they are hearing so far are "facts that can change the world", when at best they are "stories that can sell memberships"...when the stories stop, and the facts start, then we'll see what the CCA is capable of.

Fish on...

Todd

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FASTWATER
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Todd R]
      #337210 - 06/18/08 08:57 PM

Right on Todd!!!PEACE

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Lead_Bouncer
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Todd R]
      #337223 - 06/18/08 09:28 PM

Todd, I read your post and still disagree with you. Im also not going to suggest or predict that anyone is going to court. If I knew exactly what was going on, I would not discuss strategy.

As far as Im concern, my opinion is dams are number two. That quote is NOT associated to Gary. Ive seen the harvest figures from 1865 thru the mid 1900 and since the first hatcheries were built in the late 1880. Its a strong indication that overharvest was part of the day. The dams werent installed until early 1900. Ive seen dates from 1902-1920 Since none of us were around in 1920 we have to subtact cars trucks, highways, storm drains and depending on the area add in some timber harvest damage. And of course after the boldt decision, the rivers really sucked.
And again, most of the members. Too bad you have such a low opinion of these people. nine chapters in each state, five years ahead of National expections and yet we have to put up with you, boater and salmo. Get a life.

But send your science.


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Lead_Bouncer
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Lead_Bouncer]
      #337231 - 06/18/08 09:44 PM

On second thought save your science. If you want cca to have the science, send it to them. Im in a chapter, I dont have time needed for the GRC.

Salmo, a man invites you to call him and chat and then you turn around and dump on him. He barely has a high school edducation, nearly died of cancer and you just rag on him.(profanity deleted)

LB keep your profanity to your self.

Edited by Gooose (06/18/08 09:50 PM)


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GoooseModerator
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Lead_Bouncer]
      #337247 - 06/18/08 10:14 PM

The historical causes of fish declines are interesting to read about but the context of restoring fish runs is in the here and now. The relevant science is that which addresses the current mortality causing factors and not what the causes were decades or a century ago.

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Salmo_g
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Lead_Bouncer]
      #337256 - 06/18/08 10:25 PM

LB,

I sure touched a nerve with you. Sorry, I guess. Dissing Gary was the furthest thing from my mind. I thought I'd share my reflections on my experience and learn a little more. I'm not against CCA, but you seem to be in such an emotional twist that you're coming at me like Bush with his either you're for us or you're against us. You couldn't be more wrong. I'm for CCA or any organization that can constructively further the cause of conservation and sport fishing. If I can assemble some constructive criticism, then I plan to forward it to Gary. My intent is to try to be helpful, but I don't help by being a blind cheerleader. That's not my style. I think CCA has some potential. It's message needs to be tempered such that it still attracts the kind of people it attracts, but it also needs to attract the kind of people who can see right through the flaws and may be staying out because of it. It'll make hitting that 50,000 member mark a heck of a lot easier!

Objectively, it doesn't matter how much education Gary has or that he had cancer for that matter. What matters is the movement he's begun and the trajectory it takes.

As for your opinion re the Columbia, you're entitle to it even though it's dead wrong. I could prove it to you, but frankly I don't think your passion would let you see it. I try always to avoid debating visceral knowledge; it's a complete waste of time. How about you let me help my way, and I'll let you help your way?

BTW, although I had no intention of joining, my buddy needed change for a fifty. I only had $25, so he took it and signed us both up!

Sorry I rubbed you the wrong way.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.


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Mojo
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Salmo_g]
      #337262 - 06/18/08 10:35 PM

Salmo G, you are my kind of guy. Thanks for helping save our fish every way you do. I fully agree that joining CCA doesn't make you an immediate fish savior. I also agree that many non CCA members are doing more to save our fish than all the CCA members on board today.

I truly believe that anything and everything we can do to help our fish runs is beneficial. It doesn't really matter what group you are a member of. Just help somehow.

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AuntyM
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Mojo]
      #337283 - 06/19/08 07:06 AM

There is a huge difference between bashing or trying to discredit as a few here tend to do and constructive criticism, meant to enhance and improve. Feedback like Salmo g gave is exactly what CCA needs in order to define and refine objectives and tactics.

Steve, I encourage you to follow through with your suggestions. I hate to flatter you and look like I'm a suck up, but nobody does it better than you do.

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Trouthead
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Mojo]
      #337284 - 06/19/08 07:08 AM

Quote:

Mojo said:
I truly believe that anything and everything we can do to help our fish runs is beneficial. It doesn't really matter what group you are a member of. Just help somehow.






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Todd R
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Trouthead]
      #337319 - 06/19/08 11:20 AM

LB,

I don't have a low opinion of any people involved in the CCA, though I have a very low opinion of some of the things they do.

I hope you don't actually think you're helping CCA when you post such great stuff as you have...again...in this thread.

When a group that so far has relied on emotional non-factual stories to get their membership up and motivated finds out that it will have to then enlist knowledgeable people with facts and logic to actually get something worthwhile done, folks like you will have alienated a good portion of the folks who could help.

Fish on...

Todd

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Index Hooker
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Todd R]
      #337350 - 06/19/08 03:00 PM

i didn't get the idea at all that SG was slaming gary at all.

i have enjoyed all of SG posts and have found them to be informitve and seem to go out of the way to respect others.

i often think of joining cca but it's vocal members and there "your with us or aginst us" attitude keeps me from doing so. kinda a shame.

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Todd R
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Index Hooker]
      #337351 - 06/19/08 03:28 PM

Give it another couple years, Pete...once all the dust settles, if the PNWCCA is still around in two years, I suspect it will be almost unrecognizable compared to it's "internet persona" right now...

Fish on...

Todd

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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Todd R]
      #337355 - 06/19/08 03:33 PM

I would suggest you talk to those that are more "behind the scenes" supporting CCA, not the know it alls on the net. CCA has some great ideas in work, but needs people with real sensibility to join and help build their agenda, and assure it is accomplished.

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Todd R
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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Mojo]
      #337380 - 06/19/08 06:00 PM

Quote:

Mojo said:
I would suggest you talk to those that are more "behind the scenes" supporting CCA, not the know it alls on the net. CCA has some great ideas in work, but needs people with real sensibility to join and help build their agenda, and assure it is accomplished.




I think I'll just wait until the "know it alls" on the net fade into the background and see where the CCA is headed after that...the disconnect between them and the players is probably pretty substantial, but I'm surprised the players haven't intervened and put a stop to it...the power of the internet is more than most realize, and can kill you just as fast as make you...the "know it alls on the 'net" are in the process of killing the CCA for lots of folks as fast as they can type.

Fish on...

Todd

P.S. I've done some actual fisheries related work with some of the higher ups in the CCA, and have had good experiences working with them so far. My participation with them has been utterly in spite of the "internet know it alls" who don't seem to know all that much, except to keep saying "Yer either wid us, er yer agin us!" or "If you're not part of the CCA, you're part of the problem!"...

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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Todd R]
      #337554 - 06/20/08 07:50 PM

Todd and I have butted heads many a times on many different fishery issues, but he's right on about the CCA and what it can or can't do to restore our fish runs! Anyone and I mean anyone who doesn't think or have the basic fishery knowledge to understand that it’s the dams and the missing habitat that's the number one problem, should most definitely join and support the CCA.

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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Cowlitzfisherman]
      #337556 - 06/20/08 07:56 PM

I agree with those being generally the primary problems. So explain why the chinook and winter steelhead on the Hamma Hamma, Dosewallips and Duckabush Rivers are near extinct?

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Re: I'm probably gonna' regret . . . new [Re: Gooose]
      #337557 - 06/20/08 08:05 PM

No dams on those plus the watershed and estuarine habitat is not much different than what it was 50 years ago when those runs were robust.

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