Cowlitzfisherman
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steelie
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Quote:
boater said:
Quote:
and sport fishing will suck....
Exactly!!
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Gooose
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explain why 
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Cowlitzfisherman
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steelie
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Someone already has!
Repeat....
"Todd R said:
The difference will be how many more hatchery fish those commercial nets can harvest, which could multiply by many factors if they become more selective.
Fish on...
Todd "
What's so hard to understand?
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Lead_Bouncer
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Fishing sucks now. If we have more restrictions, it will cause some pain and I may not fish much in the rivers. I'm not driving to the cow on 4.50 a gallon for one day and one or two fish. If a slowdown ruins your life, you need a new life. Extinction is not an option. Too many are gone,now.
Besides, thats one mans outlook. Boeing employees had to go to truck driving school. Loggers had to get new jobs. Commercial fisherman are not the chosen people. Neither are hydro projects. Its the beginning, not the end. Stop being so negative.
Edited by Lead_Bouncer (06/24/08 12:58 PM)
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Todd R
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"Extinction is not an option. Too many are gone,now."
Maybe you're having trouble with the math...
The amount of fish that the commercial fishermen harvest is not set by the amount of fish they put in the tote...it's set by the amount of non-target wild ESA fish they kill.
Let's call it, for argument's sake, 2000 wild ESA fish.
If they can catch 8000 hatchery fish right now while killing their 2000 wild fish, then that's what they get.
If they create a more "selective" method of fishing (which doesn't really mean "more selective"...it means "lower mortality to the non-target species that are caught", like with fish traps, etc.), then THEY WILL STILL BE ABLE TO KILL 2000 ESA WILD FISH.
I'm not sure why this is so hard for some folks to understand.
The difference is that while they are still killing the EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF ESA LISTED WILD FISH, they will be catching far more hatchery fish.
This does not slow down extinction ONE LITTLE BIT. They kill the SAME AMOUNT of wild fish, no matter what the mortality level of their method is on wild fish. The only thing that changes is the amount of hatchery fish they harvest.
That's why they went to "tangle nets"...using them they would presumably be able to box up more hatchery fish WHILE KILLING THE SAME ALLOWABLE IMPACT OF WILD FISH.
That's why they did it. Not to save wild fish, not to push extinction farther into the future...to harvest more hatchery fish.
This type of thinking causes NO GAIN to wild spawners, while possibly increasing the amount of hatchery fish harvested by the commercial fleet by many factors.
Until folks understand these fundamental and basic tenets of mixed-stock management on the Columbia River, they will forever be confused and disappointed about their expectations.
The only benefit to the wild fish is possibly less hatchery fish spawning with them on the spawning grounds, but that benefit is so miniscule compared to the fish being killed by the dams that it almost warrants anything beyond just a mention, so I am just mentioning it.
Fish on...
Todd
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Todd R
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P.S. The only way to remove the impacts from the in-river commercial fishers is to remove the in-river commercial fishers...period.
"More selective" means absolutely nothing to the fish.
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Lead_Bouncer
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it's set by the amount of non-target wild ESA fish they kill.
You didnt even need to say that. Do you ever tire of talking down to people? I made broad comments in regards to the black cloud over the predictions you and other made. You probably cant prove those predictions will happen. The commercial lobby was able to outlaw fish wheels and traps. I really dont care about selective harvest as you define it. I fish with a hook, not a net. I cant take the fish out, I dont need a recovery box. In most cases, I have to fish with barbless hooks which favors the fish dramatically. You run out to the skagit and the coast with the intention of fishing for native fish. I dont. Dont preach to me about selective harvest. If there are few fish to catch for a period of time, I will fish for bass or play more golf. Buck up people. Im on board with dam removal, pat yourself on the back. I really dont need to read the black cloud reviews on the web all the time. Bannning nets means less ghost nets, banning nets mean less sneaky stealth midnight nets attached to the boat house. You either want more nates in the river or you dont. You dont get to move the happiness bar out of reach, when that happens.
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Todd R
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...and that last post is exactly what we continue to hear from the likes of you, LB, the self-appointed CCA Internet Ambassadors...offensive, devoid of fact, and emotionally-overcharged.
You don't have to like my definition of "more selective", but my definition is what it means. Any other definition is pure makeup-speak.
Your fishing techniques have nothing whatsoever to do with the commercial fishers on the Columbia, none at all.
Fish on...
Todd
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boater
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Quote:
Todd R said:
I'm not sure why this is so hard for some folks to understand.
i dont know why its so hard to understand, personaly i think we need to ban the non-tribal giullnets off the river, the tribes catch plenty of fish for the non-fishing public
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Todd R
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Yep...like I said:
Quote:
Todd R said:
P.S. The only way to remove the impacts from the in-river commercial fishers is to remove the in-river commercial fishers...period.
"More selective" means absolutely nothing to the fish.
Fish on...
Todd
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Cowlitzfisherman
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steelie
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The devil is always in the details
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Lead_Bouncer
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i dont know why its so hard to understand, personaly i think we need to ban the non-tribal giullnets off the river, the tribes catch plenty of fish for the non-fishing public
Boater, unless you consider a fish wheel, a net, thats exactly what the goal is. They were outlawed by the state years ago and its listed on the post from CF on the list of washington state history.
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Cowlitzfisherman
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steelie
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Loc: Cowlitz River near Toledo WA
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Quote:
Lead_Bouncer said:
Boater, unless you consider a fish wheel, a net, thats exactly what the goal is. They were outlawed by the state years ago and its listed on the post from CF on the list of washington state history.
LB
Lets try to "talk" about how we could get back to that type of fishery. Let's look at all the "points" (both good and bad) to get there.
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Todd R
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Quote:
Lead_Bouncer said:
i dont know why its so hard to understand, personaly i think we need to ban the non-tribal giullnets off the river, the tribes catch plenty of fish for the non-fishing public
Boater, unless you consider a fish wheel, a net, thats exactly what the goal is. They were outlawed by the state years ago and its listed on the post from CF on the list of washington state history.
A fish wheel is a contrivance used to catch a fish, just like a gillnet is, a purse seine is, or a commercial hook and line, or a sport hook and line.
Fish wheels kill fish, too, just at a much lower rate than, say, gillnets.
Whatever the ESA limit on dead wild fish is, though, is how many the commercial fishermen would kill with a fish wheel, too, or a purse seine, or a beach net, or any other type of fishery appliance.
The amount of fish harvested is set by the amount of wild ESA fish killed...IT IS NOT SET BY HOW MANY HATCHERY FISH THEY GET TO HARVEST.
I know I've said that to you at least 20 times in the past month, but there it is...again.
Until that changes, it doesn't matter what the commercials fish with, they will kill right up to and including the allowable ESA take of wild fish.
There will be zero conservatin gain, and a lot more hatchery fish caught by the commercials.
The only conservation gain will be the small gain to wild fish productivity if there are less hatchery fish spawning.
This will, however, come at the expense of many, many less fish for sporties to catch, with no increase in wild fish on the spawning beds.
LeadBouncer, let's try this...what exactly do you think "being more selective" means, and what do you think it will help, and how it will help, if the commercials on the Columbia become "more selective"?
Fish on...
Todd
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Gooose
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Todd you are assuming that a few fish wheels located in safe areas would be able to still reach the ESA take they are allowed now over the course of a hatchery run through those safe areas. They might but then again they might not. Neither you nor I can predict what will happen with the info currently available and I prefer not to value absolutes in these discussions.
Increased harvest of hatchery fish by the commercials? So what? The typical hatchery run blows right through any sport effort with 1,000s if not tens of thousands ending up as surplused salmon. Or escaped past hatchery traps and weirs on high flows into wild fish spawning grounds. The only way for those fish to be harvested would be for the state to allow an all out snag fishery in the terminal area.
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boater
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Quote:
Gooose said:
Increased harvest of hatchery fish by the commercials? So what?
so what ?, sport fishing stinks now after the gillnets are in and your saying so-what if the commercials catch more of the same fish we are fishing for ?, i guess your thinking its an opportunity to sport fish and thats all that matters 
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Gooose
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boater do you understand what a fish wheel is compared to a gill net? The actual amount of the river affected by a wheel is pretty small. There are only a few places where a fish wheel will work. Gill nets work pretty much anywhere. Most of the river will be unemcumbered by commercial gear with wheels as opposed to wall after wall of gill nets. A few wheels can catch more hatchery fish while at the same time allowing more to be available for us. Do your research.
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boater
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Quote:
Gooose said: A few wheels can catch more hatchery fish while at the same time allowing more to be available for us. Do your research.
you said up above,
Neither you nor I can predict what will happen with the info currently available and I prefer not to value absolutes in these discussions.
where is the "absolute" that says sports will get more fishing time ?, sounds like a "fact-less" absolute to me
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Gooose
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Can't help it if you have no understanding of what a fish wheel is and how it fishes.
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boater
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Quote:
Gooose said:
Can't help it if you have no understanding of what a fish wheel is and how it fishes.
i`m realy not interested in going to any other method for the non-tribal gillnetters because we dont need 2 commercial fisherys, let the tribes down there supply the fish to the public, they supply lake Washington sockeye to the public when there is a season so whats the difference in doing it down there and a few other places ?, why must we have 25 percent sport and 75 percent commercial fishing in this state ?, why are so many of you interested in getting the non-tribal commercials more fish ?, that doesn't make sense.
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Lead_Bouncer
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Based on current issues, Im not sure that the ESA percentage, trumps the 50% of tribal harvest. Might need an engineer for that equation.
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Salmo_g
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Getting back to this . . .
CFM,
Yes, the ESA is about recovering listed species to healthy population levels. However, the ESA allows for incidental take that occurs while conducting otherwise legal activities. Therefore, NMFS has to set limits on incidental take of listed salmon and steelhead while "otherwise legal" fishing for hatchery spring chinook takes place by commercial and sport fishermen. I was simply adding my editorial point that I think that the incidental take limit should be allocated to the highest and best use for society. More hatchery spring chinook could be caught at great social and economic benefit to society by allocating incidental take to the sport fishery instead of the non-treaty commercial fishery. Yes, I'm biased. Like Boater, I think the treaty fishery on springers does a satisfactory job of supplying spring chinook to the fresh fish market, and therefore the non-treaty fleet is unnecessary.
Kwaj, thanks!
Sg
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Todd R
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Gooose...do you mean areas "safe" to use wheels, or the "S.A.F.E." areas?
With the lack of good fish wheel locations, and the overall lack of fish to take advantage of, fish wheels would be a pretty damned inefficient way to harvest anything, hatchery fish or otherwise.
Not that I mind that...sportfishing for spring Chinook is about as inefficient as it gets!...but those are just factors that would go on the long list of things required to get fish wheels to replace gillnets.
I still think that just outright getting the non-tribal commercials off the river altogether would not only be the best way to deal with the situation, it would be easier than getting fish wheels implemented.
Fish on...
Todd
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Todd R
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Quote:
Salmo_g said:
Kwaj, thanks!
+1
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Salmo_g
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Goose,
If you're thinking about re-instating fish wheel use on the Columbia River, there isn't much point. There are few suitable locations now due to the reservoirs.
It's worth noting that the gillnetters originally got the fish wheels banned from the Columbia for "taking too many salmon." Fish wheels at their peak harvested 3% of the salmon catch. Gillnets and drag seine accounted for the vast majority. I think even the Indian dipnet fishery at Celilo Falls caught more than the fish wheels, but my thinking isn't too dependable on that one.
The upshot is that fish wheels are likely not viable. Further, as Todd, others, and I have written at length, the LCR gillnet fishery is an anachroism that has outlived its social and surely its environmental utility, and it's past time to retire it. Gonna' be a fight though.
Sg
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Gooose
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Salmo it won't be much of a fight. Neither state legislature is likely to support doing away with it anytime soon....as in a decade or more. The Fed's don't have a say at all except to enforce ESA and treaty obligations. My concerns right now are for the fish....I won't waste my time in allocation squabbles.
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Gooose
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Salmo I wasn't even considering the upper river nor the tribal commercial fisheries. A handful of fishwheels could be located in the LCR. Historically there never were very many of them...likely because of the physical requirements. What was the poundage associated with that 3% back then? Course that was back then and we are trying to deal with the here and now. Letting interesting historical artifacts overwhelm finding solutions isn't going to resolve anything in regards to the LCR fisheries impacts on the fish.
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boater
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