boater
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should hatchery and naturally spawned fish be treated differently in making ESA listing determinations ?.
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kwaj
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Like I know...?
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..oh boy...
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Mojo
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Genetically different fish should be treated differently... 
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Tight Lines,
Mojo
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Chromeo
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Makin' Old Men Mad!
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kill this one please. I think someones fishing...
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Mojo
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Quote:
Chromeo said:
kill this one please. I think someones fishing...
You think? Every post he's made is like a hook with a chunk of worm and some velveeta on it... 
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Tight Lines,
Mojo
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boater
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i thought it was a good question 
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Mojo
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I thought my answer was a good one.
Interestingly enough some Idaho Hatchery fish are descendants from California strain fish. Not in any way genetically the same as Idaho native fish, bvut they survived well in cement ponds, so in the 1070's the F&G adopted them as hatchery strains to save money.
Their in river and ocean survival sucked, generally less than .8% return, but they were cheap to raise.
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Mojo
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Marty
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redneck yachter
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yes they should
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Marty
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workin4fishin
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Chromer - I wonder what one looks like up close
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How would you classify an established run of Kings that started from a long-defunct hatchery program?
I'd have to dig for more details/dates etc, but I know of at least one former hatchery run that is now an established (wild?) run on one of the Fraser tributaries. I'm told there are others, but I don't know of them.
The run I'm talking bout is 'self-sustaining' and despite predation problems (seals) extensive illegal netting (and even some legal netting) and a very large sports fishery in the area, the run has been doing quite well for yrs.
As far as I know the hatchery program on that river was closed in the 80's (maybe earlier). Without digging, I couldn't say what the stock origin was for that hatchery, and I don't know what the name was then (It was run by Dept. of Corrections as a make-work/community service project for min. security inmates).
There are several hatchery programs operating in the same area on the Fraser system, and I think one that's even on that same trib.
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workin4fishin
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Chromer - I wonder what one looks like up close
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On a different note, how do you genetically differentiate hatchery fish that come from brood-stock? If both buck and hen broodstock came from established wild-run fish on the same river, is the only difference that they were reared in holding ponds rather than 'natural waters'?
Goose/SG:
What if the broodstock harvesting stopped 'x' yrs ago? How many generations are estimated to be required before there are determinate markers enough for true differentiation?
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Gooose
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I don't see an issue with the question.
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boater
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so whats everyones take on what it says in this link
http://www.mbaks.com/mbaks3c.cfm?SectionGroupsID=80&SectionListsID=224&PageID=813
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Todd R
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Perfectly good question, and the answer is "of course they should be treated differently for ESA purposes"...especially if you're concerned about actually having fish to fish for in the future.
Fish on...
Todd
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Gooose
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The only time hatchery fish should be given ESA protection is when they are part of a program to conserve and or restore a remnant stock.
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Quillback
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South of the Mason/Dixon line
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I'd rather be fishing
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Mojo
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What about true broodstock programs utilizing wild parents and mixing wild stock for genetic diversity?
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Tight Lines,
Mojo
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Gooose
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If the broodstock program is for the purposes of conserving and or restoring an ESA stock then yes those fish should receive ESA protection.
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Independent Advocate For The Fish
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Simple Solutions to Complex Problems
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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Todd R
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Like Gooose said...it depends on what the point of the broodstock program is...there are a few that are there for the expressed purpose of recovering wild stocks, but very, very few.
Methow River steelhead, though I think that one may be near its end, Redfish Lake sockeye...almost all broostock programs are for producing fish for harvest, and don't exist for any other reason.
The ones that are actually designed to recover wild stocks...yeah, they should get ESA protection, too.
Be careful if you don't like that...if your pet broodstock program was counted for ESA purposes, then you probably wouldn't be allowed to fish for them, either...and if you don't like that, then it's probably just further evidence that your pet broodstock program isn't there for any other reason than to make hatchery fish for harvesting.
Fish on...
Todd
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For all your fishing hardware needs!
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Gooose
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Now for the complicated part of this discussion. Where certain runs have been extirpated or nearly so from a river the restoration of that species in that river may require using what is available such as plain old hatchery fish as a broodstock source. Those fish are not fin clipped and are given the same protections as the ESA protected fish. These fish come from the same raceway essentially as the fish that are fin clipped and available for harvest with no ESA protections. Confused yet?
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Independent Advocate For The Fish
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Simple Solutions to Complex Problems
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
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Todd R
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You mean like the Cowlitz?
Those fish kind of get ESA protection by default, since they don't have an adipose fin and can't be distinguised from an actual native fish...
Plenty confusing!
Fish on...
Todd
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For all your fishing hardware needs!
"Correct in Design"
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boater
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Loc: seattle
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Quote:
Todd R said:
Perfectly good question, and the answer is "of course they should be treated differently for ESA purposes"...especially if you're concerned about actually having fish to fish for in the future.
Fish on...
Todd
especially if you're concerned about actually having fish to fish for in the future.
this is where things get screwy to me, in the link i put above to the mba salmon policy they said the fish should not be treated differently and unless i`m reading the following link wrong it looks like the northwest marine trade association gets there health insurance thru this place, http://www.nmta.net/PDF/2006BusinessPlanDraft.pdf, am i reading this correctly ?
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boater
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Loc: seattle
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Quote:
boater said:
am i reading this correctly ?
yes you are boater, its just part of the machine
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