workin4fishin
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Bottom-bouncing is nothing more than drift-fishing with enough weight to get to the bottom of heavy water. Flossing, or using excessively long leaders is an entirely different issue. I've seen hook-up rates that are almost identical, independent of leader length, using the same gear, in the same location, at the same time...
DFO cannot 'demand' anything until they actually enforce something.
Poke around on some of the news sites for the Fraser Valley (small-town newspapers can print stuff that would get buried or spiked in the larger outlets) and you'll find some startling numbers.
Certain groups, un-named, are very adept at the politic game. HINT: A small group <1000 total, insist's it has not harvested enough salmon this yr, despite the fact that they're reporting > 60000 lbs caught as of early June. ...and that's what they're actually reporting.
Back in the early 90's, this same group (during another of those "...AAAAAA everyone panic, there's no salmon left in the river..."), was caught on camera loading pallets of iced salmon from a warehouse that they claimed did not exist, onto unmarked trucks. A BCTV camera crew followed a truck from that plant to a major chain grocery store...
Nothing was done.
That same group, illegally blockaded a CN Freight line for 3 or 4 days.
Nothing was done.
Another, more recent, incident; They held a fisheries officer at gunpoint for a day or two.
Nothing was done.
Nets are illegally strung all over the river, all season long (maybe all yr long, but I've not been on the river to see it in the winter). Some appear to be completely abandoned.
Nothing is ever done.
Roadside stands illegally sell 'fresh-caught' salmon when there is NO opener, for any group.
Nothing is done.
Anyone see a pattern here? Of course, it's all the fault of a few thousand flossers on Peg-Leg, for the wk or two that they're out there.
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fishhog
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BC Steel makes it sound like it's our fault. You want some cheese with your whine ?
You should see all the finger pointing in the BC forums. It goes from bottom bouncing to snagging in .01 seconds flat. Maybe our neighbors to the north sould take a page from the SH.net playbook.
The BC Hen house likes to state that bottom bouncing is the same as flossing, which as W4F states is similar, yet totally different.
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fishhog
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BC Steel makes it sound like it's our fault. You want some cheese with your whine ?
You should see all the finger pointing in the BC forums. It goes from bottom bouncing to snagging in .01 seconds flat. I have never seen so much bitching in all my life. And it doesn't stop at the Flossing debate.
The BC Hen house likes to state that bottom bouncing is the same as flossing, which as W4F states is similar, yet totally different.
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Netting = extinction
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workin4fishin
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Yeah, but Mark, y'all know I don't know squat about the Fraser (Eh?)
BC Steel is not to blame here for the thought. He is right that the official scapegoat for the problem is the recreational anglers near Chilliwack. Forget about facts, all it takes is a trip up there to see some classic examples of rather nasty fishing ethics, regardless of how many responsible anglers there are.
It's tough to argue, when (almost) ALL flossers are bottom bouncers, and a lot of bottom bouncers are also flossing.
Where it gets funky is the holy war of definitions as to what is too long a leader, and when is it flossing, vs, when is it just a long leader? 3'? 4'? Some factor of fish length, or visibility?
How about plunking? bar-fishing? ('old-school' like they used to do below the Mission Bridge back in the 70's)? Speylines, with 10' leaders, and streamers?
What about tying a jog to your mainline (braid) and running it at the seam of a deep pool and the main flow (like sometimes forms at the mouth of the Vedder?) Is that flossing? What if a short leader 'snags' a sock in the side of the jaw?
What's really really funny, is when you see the 'purists' fishing. Funny, how they don't release too many when retention is allowed, but oh how they wail and moan over those danged flossers.
I guess it's all they can complain about in the hope of getting some response from the DFO, or at least some kind of reaction on the forums to validate their thoughts...
OH, wait a minute... AWW Diaper-fillings!! I fell into the same trap.
Clever them ferriners...
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fishhog
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Im not blaming BCSteel, I just don't want that kind of crap on this site.
Take a peek on this BC forum, and you'll know EXACTLY why I'm so up in arms. http://www.bcfishingreports.com/forum/index.php
There's more bickering going on here than a bunch of high school girls fighting over a boyfriend.
I dare ya to post a picture holding a fish, then wait for the critics.
Bunch if flippin haters yo.
I know that bottom bouncing with anything over 48" is most likely flossing fish. Funny thing is, south of the border, a 36" wouldn't even raise an eyebrow and leaders up to 48" are common for side drifting, depending on water clarity.
They should have made a leader restriction. This would have cut down on the sport catch and most of the bickering.
I used to floss, but do it no longer. I also have tried other methods with VERY limited success. I think I've caught two, and one of those was questionable.
If they would have pulled their bals out of their purse and made flossing illegal, end of debate. Fact is, "strongly encouraging it" doesn't make it illegal. Ethics is a whole different animal, which I won't go into.
Flossing is good for two things: Teeth and bikinis 
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Netting = extinction
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fishhog
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An interesting little tidbit:
From Saturday's Globe and Mail
August 18, 2007 at 2:11 AM EDT
VANCOUVER — Native fishermen are vowing to head out onto the lower Fraser River this weekend to fish for sockeye salmon – defying a federal ban – in part to protest against the continuing recreational fishery.
“A few of the bands have said they're going to go out fishing,” said Ernie Crey, fisheries adviser for the Sto:lo bands in the eastern Fraser Valley. His own band, the Cheam, is considering joining that action.
The Sto:lo are angry, he said, that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans will not allow them or other bands along the Lower Fraser to fish for sockeye, but will allow anglers to ply the river until Monday. Although those recreational fishermen are not permitted to catch sockeye, the Sto:lo say that happens anyway.
“It's now common knowledge that they're killing and keeping sockeye,” Mr. Crey said.
So, today or tomorrow, according to Mr. Crey, natives in fishing boats will cast nets into the Fraser, partly as a gesture of protest and partly as a way to stock their freezers for the winter.
DFO is declining to say exactly how it will respond to such a move. “We'll monitor that situation, and depending on the circumstances, we'll take appropriate action,” said Paul Ryall, head of the department's salmon team.
However, B.C. Conservative MP John Cummins, an outspoken critic of federal fisheries policy, said he believes that fisheries officials will not intervene – even though they should – to protect the sockeye stocks. “They can't tolerate this sort of behaviour,” he said. “But by past performance, [intervention] hasn't happened.”
At the root of the dispute is a stunning collapse in the size of this year's runs of sockeye on the Fraser, and the resulting plummet in the size of the allowable catch. No one is certain why the population has declined so much, but the warm oceans of four years ago are thought to have reduced food sources and increased predators. As a result, there will be no commercial fishery for sockeye this year, and aboriginal bands that last year harvested close to a million fish will be limited to just 180,000. Already, 100,000 fish have been caught, with DFO deciding late Thursday to open fisheries only upstream of Sawmill Creek, north of Hope, and then only until tomorrow evening.
The recreational fishery will remain open until midnight tomorrow. Although the Sto:lo and other native bands are upset that it will not be closed sooner, the DFO's Mr. Ryall said an immediate closing is impractical, and that the department typically tries to give 48-hour notice. A decision was made late Thursday, and a formal notice given Friday morning, with the fishery closing more than 60 hours later.
Donald Sam, fisheries co-ordinator for the Nlaka'Pamux, said he could not say what the effect of unauthorized fishing downstream would be on his bands' legal fishing efforts. But he said the Nlaka'Pamux plan to comply with DFO directives.
Mr. Ryall said there will be a relatively small number of fish caught legally in the Upper Fraser this weekend, around 3,000 sockeye.
What will happen on the Lower Fraser with illegal boats and nets is unclear. Mr. Crey said he's not sure how many native fishermen will head out this weekend. But he is certain that the tide of anger toward the DFO is rising. “The whole community along the lower river is in turmoil right now.”
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Netting = extinction
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fishhog
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the number of frazer river sockeye taken to date by FN fishers is not 18,000
as reported it is 62,000 as quoted by Fisheries and Oceans Canada at a meeting aug 13/07. of those 32,000 were caught during an opening the prior weekend.
it is interesting to note that these catches were allowed for food and ceremonial purposes. one must question what ceremony warrants selling these fish to the public.
the story says that sto:lo fisheries advisor Ernie Crey expressed concerns that sport fishers targeting springs are intercepting sockeye.
readers should be aware that with current favourable temps and water levels, the mortality in releasing sockeye caught incidentaly is probably no more than 5%.
past documented studies on c & r support these numbers. DFO surveys estimates the number of anglers fishing for springs this past weekend at 300.
if each of these anglers hooked one sockeye, the mortality rate would be no more than 15 fish.
this number is inconsequential compared the 62,000 fish taken by FN. the impact of the sports fishery is minimal on stocks, while the financial benefit to the local economy is in the many millions of dollars.
the sport fishers are responsible stewards, as indicated by the recent and ongoing campaign within the sports fishing community to get anglers to fish for
spring salmon, with methods designed to avoid sockeye.
it would be prudent to get the opinions of the sport fishing community in any future articles related to fisheries to ensure all pertinent info is obtained.
our organization or others in the area would be pleased to provide such inforamtion.
Rod Clapton, president BC federation of Drift Fishers
editors note"the number of sockeye caught as quoted by Mr Clapton is correct. that number was not available to the reporter at the time the story was written. he has since been told that the cummulative total taken by FN is reported at 42,000 and that 20,000 more have been taken offshore
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fishhog
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Natives halt traditional fishery
By Chantal Eustace, Vancouver Sun
Published: Wednesday, August 15, 2007
Fish stocks in the Fraser River are so low this year that the Tsleil-Waututh Nation will forgo their tradition rights to fish for sockeye, Chief Leah George Wilson announced Monday.
"We have serious concerns that salmon stocks are in danger," Wilson said. "Tsleil-Waututh does not want to fish the last sockeye in the Fraser."
Wilson said the Tsleil-Waututh - also known as the Burrard Indian Band - questions whether Department of Fisheries and Oceans return estimate predictions of 1.6 million sockeye are correct.
The Tsleil-Waututh, a Coast Salish community in North Vancouver with a population of about 450 people, traditionally fish in the Fraser River, Burrard Inlet and Indian Arm. In the past, they have been allocated about 7,000 sockeye for food, social and ceremonial use.
"Our harvest numbers are modest compared to other communities with larger populations," said Tsleil-Waututh council member Matt Thomas.
"Nevertheless, the decision not to harvest will create some hardship, particularly for some of our elders."
But elder Ernie George said he supported the decision to refrain from harvesting sockeye this year.
"In my lifetime we've seen our ability to harvest clams, crab and other marine resources impacted by industrial development in Burrard Inlet and Indian Arm," George said.
"We had no voice in the protection of those resources. We have a voice and a choice today."
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Is my Red Neck showing?
Politically correct..... What's that?
Netting = extinction
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workin4fishin
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My bad - I said 60000 lbs, when I should have said 60000 salmon. What's a few 100 TONS of salmon between friends?
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fishhog
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I like Chief Leah George Wilson's approach realizing that the run is suffering and even though it will create hardship, they are not going to net. 
Everyone needs to realize that we all have to scale back in order to protect the run for the future.
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workin4fishin
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WOW! Something actually happened for once. Although it was orchestrated so that they can get this into the court system. Check out the snippets I bolded.
OK, now, forget entirely what group is doing all this. Forget that there are only a couple thousand people in the Fraser Valley with the legal status to be considered part of that group...
Focus on the fishing management fiasco. Note how there is no mention of by-catch. Of course no other species are caught in these nets, none at all. Nope, no Vedder steel, no Thompson steel, no coho, no chinook, none. It's all those evil sports anglers with their killing single barbless hooks that are decimating the stocks. 
Nor is there mention of possible penalty, if charges stick and convictions are found/and upheld.
Illegal fishery draws charges, native boats take more sockeye
Aug 23 2007
Aboriginal fishermen from three different bands now face charges of illegally fishing after heading out on the Fraser River to catch sockeye salmon over the weekend in contravention of a fishing ban.
Protest fisheries were conducted by the Musqueam, Chehalis and Cheam bands that stretch from Vancouver to Chilliwack.
Charges were laid against about 35 native harvesters, most of them Musqueam members, according to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.
DFO acting area director Mel Kotyk said the bands took only a token number of sockeye and seemed mainly intent on triggering charges to push the issue before the courts.
“They have a message they’re trying to deliver,” he said. “If they decide to go out and do more protest fisheries we’ll continue on with our enforcement action.”
Aboriginal leaders on the lower Fraser are angry sports anglers were permitted to keep fishing for chinook salmon – and potentially hooking sockeye as well – until Sunday night while their people were to be sidelined.
“We’re out of the water and we’re looking at anglers killing sockeye,” Sto:lo fishery advisor Ernie Crey said, noting that after conservation aboriginal bands have first priority to salmon ahead of all other users.
Federal fishery officials, who announced the sports fishing shut down late Thursday, had said a delay was needed to get out word of the angling closure.
Some aboriginal boats headed out on the river Friday evening and caught sockeye or chinook over the weekend until the sports fishing ban took effect.
Commercial fishing had already been ruled out this summer because just a quarter of the 6.4 million sockeye expected to return are showing up.
The angling shutdown applies between Mission and Hope but may be lifted around Labour Day after most sockeye have passed.
Native bands have already caught 100,000 Fraser sockeye in their constitutionally protected food fisheries.
DFO has determined there’s another 80,000 sockeye that can be safely caught while ensuring enough spawn, but they will be allocated to other Fraser River bands upstream of Hope.
Aboriginal food fishing normally nets a million  Fraser sockeye in a more typical year.
Crey said he believes some bands may go out again.
“It wouldn’t surprise me if some of the bands planned another fishery,” he said.
Federal fisheries minister Loyola Hearn appealed for calm on the river, while vowing DFO will take “appropriate enforcement action” if there’s more illegal fishing.
“It is very important for all groups and individuals to respect the fishery closures,” he said. “We are all troubled by low numbers of sockeye returning to the Fraser this year.”
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Coho
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Its time!!!!! Fraser Opens July 26th for Sockeye_
http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/xnet/c...ID=recreational
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FireFish
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Is this possible. We where just talking at the Cowtilla, that it sure would be nice if they would open that thing up this year. FJ, Drifterat, Mike, You guys reading this, looks like it's time to go get some Socks in August... 
FireFish Out.... 
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Member of Grays Harbor Salmon Management Committee:
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2. Working Hard to Get Back Our 50% of the Bolt
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Fish Jesus
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Saw that Duane. Haven't broke the news to the wife yet so not sure how that will go over...yet.
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workin4fishin
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I talked to Dad last night. There's lots being caught right now, but with DFO, you never know how long it will last.
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fishhog
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Frasertilla? 
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fishhog
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Don't make any plans. She be closing
Fishery Notice
Category(s): RECREATIONAL - Salmon
Subject: FN0528-Salmon: Sockeye - Non-tidal Fraser River - Region 2 - Closure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Fraser River Panel met on Monday July 28, and received an update on the
status of Fraser River sockeye stocks and fishery catches to date. The summer
run component of this years return currently appears to be tracking at the 75%P
level of 1.182 million. At this run size there is no available recreational or
commercial TAC.
Therefore the current status of the Fraser River sockeye return does not
provide for any additional recreational sockeye retention opportunities at this
time in Southern B.C. waters.
Effective Wednesday, July 30, at 21:00 hours until further notice, you may not
retain sockeye in that portion of the Fraser River from the CPR Bridge at
Mission, BC upstream to Alexandra Bridge.
Landstrom Bar Closure: The area described below remains closed to fishing for
all salmon species until October 31, 2008.
Those waters of the Fraser River inside a line beginning at a fishing boundary
sign on the eastern end of Landstrom Bar, then to a fishing boundary sign on
the opposite bank, then to a fishing boundary sign on the southern end of Croft
Island, then westerly to a fishing boundary sign on the nearest bank of the
river, then following the river bank to the beginning point.
Notes:
Barbless hooks are required when fishing for salmon in tidal and non-tidal
waters of British Columbia. This includes all species of fish in the Fraser
River.
The term "hatchery marked" means a fish that has a healed scar in place of the
adipose fin.
Sport anglers are encouraged to participate in the voluntary Salmon Sport Head
Recovery program by labelling and submitting heads from adipose fin-clipped
chinook and coho salmon. Recovery of coded-wire tags provides critical
information for coast-wide stock assessment. Contact the Salmon Sport Head
Recovery Program at (866) 483-9994 for further information.
A Fishery Notice with an update on the status of Fraser River sockeye stocks
will be provided Monday PM Jul 28.
Variation Order No. 2008-295 - July 28, 2008
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Is my Red Neck showing?
Politically correct..... What's that?
Netting = extinction
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workin4fishin
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Bummer - I was gonna go up Thursday.
I guess if it's closed only the Sto:lo will be doing their illegal netting without having to go around the sporties.
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Coho
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Springs are still open! thems Big uns too
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FireFish
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OH Well. I'll save a bunch of money on Gas. Besides, going to Wyoming in a couple weeks, at 11 miles per gallon it's going to run me about $1300.00 for the whole trip. Like FJ mentioned, this will probably keep the peace with the wives.. 
FireFish Out...
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1. Working to Unite Sporties to get Issues
Resolved...
2. Working Hard to Get Back Our 50% of the Bolt
Decision...
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workin4fishin
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Springers only open until Aug 8 (for now..)
Don't forget the Slot limit for Springers :
Effective 00:01 hours Monday June 16, 2008 and until 23:59 hours Friday August 8, 2008, in 29-11 to 29-17 and in Region 2 the non-tidal waters of the Fraser River you may retain one Chinook per day greater than 30 cm but less than 77 cm. You may not retain Chinook greater than 77 cm.
Translation:
30 to 77 cm = 11.8 to 30.3 inches. So yes, you can keep something as puny as 1 ft, but don't get caught with a decent sized 31". Yeah, great fisheries mgmt there. Of course, there's still no enforcement, so there won't be much adherence to the slot limit.
The illegal nets certainly won't be adhering to a slot limit.
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BCSteel
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Quote:
workin4fishin said:Yeah, great fisheries mgmt there. Of course, there's still no enforcement, so there won't be much adherence to the slot limit.
The illegal nets certainly won't be adhering to a slot limit.
Oh yee of ill informed native and enforcment bashing. Truth be told I have been checked more times in the past 2 months ( 5 times ) on the Fraser than in my entire life combined in the rest of BC. This is not a solitary experience by me either. Mulitple boat launch checks and roving boat checks. Scale bar had a massive amount of tickets handed out for everything from barbed hooks to retaining multiples of fish over the slot limit at least 4 times this year alone. Far and away the vast majority of FN nets are being regularly and legally tended with only a few rogue nets giving a bad name to the rest of the bunch.
Next time you want to spout off blatant lies about a fishery that you do not understand, dont, and save youself the shame of looking like a fool.
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Flossing is snagging; Sportsmen dont snag
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fishhog
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Once again BCSqueel jumps in, takes a pot shot and takes off eh. Can you say.....  ????
When, oh when will the BC "elite" (I use the term loosly) realize that they need to quit the pity party BS and instead focus making much needed changes to their fisheries.
The BC forums are full of pissing & whining. Oh, and don't you dare post a picture for fear of being branded a snagger.
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Politically correct..... What's that?
Netting = extinction
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workin4fishin
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Quote:
Truth be told I have been checked more times in the past 2 months ( 5 times ) on the Fraser than in my entire life combined in the rest of BC.
WOW - You've ben checked a whole 5 times in your entire life. Sounds like a regular draconian police state there buddy, eh?
QED 
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workin4fishin
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Quote:
...the vast majority of FN nets are being regularly and legally tended with only a few rogue nets giving a bad name to the rest of the bunch.
Golly gee, as long as it's only a 'few' rogue nets, then I guess it's ok.
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workin4fishin
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