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River Fishing >> Goverment & Science and Fisheries Management  

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Re: interesting letter new [Re: AuntyM]
      #341545 - 07/29/08 07:57 PM

Quote:

AuntyM said:

So where is this evidence that you think will lead to selective commercial fisheries reducing their mortality rate to 10% but taking all of their impact allocation?






i had an "if" in there about the 10 percent but there is no doudt they will take all of there esa take.


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Re: interesting letter new [Re: AuntyM]
      #341549 - 07/29/08 08:11 PM

Quote:

AuntyM said:

So where is this evidence that you think will lead to selective commercial fisheries reducing their mortality rate to 10% but taking all of their impact allocation?






doesnt it make sence to you that on the col. river the spring chinook esa take is split 68-32 in favor of the sports and we can take our whole esa take with a 10 percent release mortality rate, when the gillnetters switch to tangle nets and the mortality rate is about 14 percent they will be able to use up all of there esa take to, if you think they are going to fish traps or fish wheels or hook and line i think you are 100 percent wrong.


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Re: interesting letter new [Re: boater]
      #341566 - 07/30/08 06:48 AM

Follow along boater and please pay attention. There is an impact allocation for TWO species. ESA listed spring chinook AND ESA listed wild steelhead. Hmmm...

Tangle nets (small mesh gillnets) are NOT going to be acceptable as an alternative. Your quoted 14% mortality won't fly because a tangle (tooth) net is AKA a steelhead gillnet. We saw the results of the first season attempting to use them when they blew through their ESA impact allocation for WILD STEELHEAD in just a few nights, closing their season early AND OURS. I do not forget these things, why do you? We had to scrap a planned trip.

The gillnetters can't use them early in the season when they are most inclined to want to fish for springers due to that very fact. Too many steelhead. If that's what is proposed as a replacement, expect lawsuits from most every sportfishing group, from the weird ones (Native Fish Society) to the not so weird ones like WSC, NW Steelheaders etc. Both departments KNOW they're going to get a court challenge if they try to make tangle nets the alternative.



Anything else? You've come nowhere NEAR to proving your point or refuting any of my assertions.

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Re: interesting letter new [Re: AuntyM]
      #341568 - 07/30/08 06:57 AM

Quote:

AuntyM said:
Tangle nets (small mesh gillnets) are NOT going to be acceptable as an alternative. Your quoted 14% mortality won't fly because a tangle (tooth) net is AKA a steelhead gillnet. We saw the results of the first season attempting to use them when they blew through their ESA impact allocation for WILD STEELHEAD in just a few nights, closing their season early AND OURS. I do not forget these things, why do you?




i didnt forget about them blowing thru the esa steelhead impact and i didnt forget that the tangle nets they use now are difrent than the nets they used then.


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Re: interesting letter new [Re: boater]
      #341571 - 07/30/08 07:33 AM

Makes no difference. They don't use them in early part of the season when prices are really good because there are too many steelhead present. In order to maximize their hatchery springer catch, they have to use both types of nets during their season and use/manipulate the impact allocation of TWO species, which is doing twice the harm to our fisheries.

The tangle net mortality even at a phony 14% would likely use up the ESA listed steelhead impact allocation pretty darned quick if they were unable to use regular gillnets resulting in early season closures.

NEXT?



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Re: interesting letter new [Re: AuntyM]
      #341581 - 07/30/08 09:00 AM

Quote:

AuntyM said:

NEXT?






i think we should just agree to disagree here, i think tangle nets are going to be used way more and you dont, its by far the cheapest easyest way to change the gillnet fleet over to a more selective method.


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Re: interesting letter new [Re: boater]
      #341594 - 07/30/08 09:48 AM

We'll likely always disagree, but when it comes to changing to a selective method, tangle nets just won't pass the smell test. We've not even addressed the fact that no data will EVER be available for the drop out rate that occurs in both methods and likely has a very high mortality.

Tangle nets don't have the ability to catch significantly more hatchery fish than the current system of using both types of nets as you alleged, either.

So much for your fear tactics in attempting to sway the readers here.

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Re: interesting letter new [Re: AuntyM]
      #341606 - 07/30/08 11:17 AM

Recommendations for Tangle Net release mortality assumptions for Spring Chinook

Prepared by the U.S. v Oregon Technical Advisory Committee (TAC)
March 26, 2008


The U.S. v Oregon Technical Advisory Committee (TAC) met on March 3, 2008 to review updated information regarding estimates of delayed and immediate mortality of spring Chinook released in commercial fisheries using 4¼-inch “tangle net” gear. The mortality rate estimates were derived from studies conducted during 2001-2003, using a variety of methods and gears. These studies were focused on assessing mortality of spring Chinook only (not steelhead). The results presented to the TAC in 2003 (see TAC memo, 12/23/2003) were preliminary, and were expected to be refined when final data analyses were completed. In February 2008, the TAC was informed that the final data analyses were completed in late 2007. Charmane Ashbrook, the study’s principal investigator, presented the final results at the March 3, 2008 TAC meeting and discussed the study and answered questions. The final results of the study for 2001-2002 are currently in peer review and awaiting final approval for journal publication. The authors intend to prepare an additional manuscript summarizing results of the 2003 research. The TAC has prepared a review of the study methods and summarized the relevant aspects and issues associated with the study’s design and findings in Appendix A of this memorandum.

Following are key points and recommendations from the TAC regarding estimated mortality of Chinook salmon captured in 4¼”-mesh “tangle net” fishing gear and released in winter and spring commercial fisheries in the lower Columbia River.

 Preliminary findings presented to TAC in 2003 estimated total mortality of fish released following capture in 4¼”-mesh tangle nets to be 18.5%.

o Mortality estimates were derived from tagging studies using two methods, PIT-tags and jaw tags. The PIT-tag methodology provided much narrower confidence intervals, and was the TAC-preferred method.

o Two control groups were utilized in the 2003 study; one released at Bonneville Dam and one released downstream closer to where the treatment (net-captured) group was caught and released. Based on control group recovery rates, the Bonneville Dam control group experienced a survival advantage versus the treatment group. TAC elected to utilize the results incorporating the more representative (downstream) control group.

 Final data analyses completed in late 2007 resulted in small changes to recovery and release information from the 2003 PIT-tag test groups.

 Mortality is estimated by comparing the recovery rate of tagged control groups with the recovery rate of tagged treatment groups, thus, changes in release and recovery data analyses alter the estimated mortality rate.

 Using identical methods (tag types, control groups, etc.) as TAC adopted following the presentation of preliminary results in 2003, the estimated mortality for spring Chinook released from 4¼”-mesh tangle nets is now estimated to be 14.7% (95% CI 12.0% - 17.4%), based upon the updated analyses.

 The updated results represent the final data analyses from this study and no further changes to mortality estimates for spring Chinook in 4¼”-mesh tangle nets based on this study’s results are expected.

 TAC will be reviewing estimated steelhead mortality rates in 4¼”-mesh tangle nets and estimated steelhead and Chinook mortality rates in 8”-mesh nets in the near future.

APPENDIX A

Review of the 2001-2003 study “Evaluate Live Capture Selective Harvest” and evaluation of its use in providing estimates of mortality of released salmon and steelhead in Columbia River commercial net fisheries

Prepared by the U.S. v Oregon Technical Advisory Committee (TAC)
March 26, 2008

Study Background
The primary goal of this study was to assess the immediate and delayed mortality of spring Chinook captured and released in mainstem lower Columbia River commercial net fisheries. The study was conducted during 2001-2003 and evaluated a number of different net types, including the 4¼-inch tangle net and 8-inch gill net gears currently used in spring commercial salmon fisheries in the lower Columbia. Other mesh sizes evaluated were 3½-inch, 4½-inch, and 5½-inch mesh sizes. The study was intended to mimic actual methods and gear used in the commercial fishery whenever possible, including 150-fathom net length, 45-minute maximum soak times, and use of recovery boxes for lethargic and bleeding fish. However, due to constraints with suitable control groups, the study was conducted upstream of the area where most winter and spring commercial fisheries occur. Steelhead exclusion devices were not evaluated as part of this research.

The basic methodology for estimating mortality of released Chinook was to compare recovery rates of tagged treatment fish (net captured) and tagged control fish (fish removed from the trap at Bonneville Dam). Differences in tag recovery rates between treatment and control fish (Table 1) were assumed to be a result of mortality due to capture and handling in the fishery (with one exception to be discussed later). Although the basic methodology for the study was consistent over the study period, different gears and techniques were used in each year (see following paragraphs) that should be reviewed in order to fully understand the results of the study.

During 2001, 3½-inch, 4½-inch, and 8-inch mesh nets were used to collect fish from April 4 through May 24 downstream of Bonneville Dam (river miles 126-139). Catch of salmonids included 1,372 spring Chinook and 22 steelhead from 224 net sets (drifts). In 2002, fishing occurred during April 1 through May 21 from river mile 125-139 using 4½-inch and 5½-inch mesh nets. Catch of salmonids included 3,162 spring Chinook and 54 steelhead from 376 net sets (drifts).

During 2001-2002, fish were marked with colored jaw tags. The jaw tags provided a visible mark, but proved to be problematic for several reasons; 1) difficulty with visual identification of the jaw tags at passage facilities, 2) problems with the differential visibility of different colored tags, and 3) removal of tags at upriver facilities that led to poor recovery of some tag groups. Overall, only 13% – 19% of the jaw tags were recovered in sport and commercial fisheries, at hatcheries, and on spawning grounds. This poor recovery rate led to large confidence intervals around mortality estimates using the jaw tag test groups.

In 2003, the study evaluated 4¼-inch and 4½-inch nets during the same general timeframe and area as in 2001 and 2002. In 2003, the study also added PIT tags as a marking method (in addition to jaw tags). This addition allowed the use of passive tag detectors at upstream dams (including Bonneville Dam) to estimate passage of these fish, resulting in much higher tag recovery rates for treatment and control groups. For the 2003 PIT tag groups, tags were recovered at upstream dams at rates of 80% – 98%, and as a result, statistical confidence limits for these groups are very narrow. Additionally, point estimates generated from the PIT tag method fell within the bounds of those generated from jaw tag methods. Due to concerns that treatment fish were being exposed to additional sources of mortality than the control groups (e.g. pinniped losses, sport fishing, and dam passage) during migration from the fishing area to Bonneville Dam (where control groups were collected and released), the 2003 study incorporated an additional control group. One control group was released into the fish trap at Bonneville Dam as in 2001-2002, and the additional control group was transported back downstream to the fishing area prior to release, and was thus exposed to conditions more similar to the treatment groups. A preliminary analysis of the relative survival of the two control groups confirmed that the treatment groups were likely being exposed to additional mortality not related to effects of the fishing gear. Based on the differential survival of the two control groups, the TAC agreed that the control group released at Bonneville Dam had a survival advantage that the downstream control and treatment groups did not have. The TAC concluded that the mortality rate based on the relationship between the downstream control group and the treatment group was likely more accurate and best represented the mortality attributable to the fishing gear (see TAC memo, 12/23/2003). A correction factor using the differential mortality between the two control groups was applied to the mortality rates previously developed for each of the gears tested, including 8-inch mesh (which was evaluated only in 2001).

The survival of treatment groups is scaled to that of control groups by dividing the recovery rate of the treatment group by the recovery rate of the control group. The preliminary analysis conducted in 2003 using combined results for 4¼-inch and 4½-inch mesh and the downstream control group led to the 18.5% mortality rate estimate that has been used since 2004 (Table 1; treatment recovery rate = 79.5%, control recovery = 97.6%, 79.5/97.6=81.5% survival, or 18.5% mortality). This method assumes that differences in survival between the two groups is due only to the treatment effect (the tangle net fishery in this case), and scales the recovery rates of tagged treatment fish to those of tagged control fish, which are assumed to have zero mortality due to treatment effects.
Any changes in the ratio of tag recovery rates between treatment and control groups will affect the estimated mortality rate. The final analysis of the 2003 PIT tag data by Ashbrook utilizes more releases of tagged control fish, and more recoveries of tagged treatment fish than were available in the preliminary 2003 analysis. This is based on updating and finalizing the study’s PIT tag data stored in the PTAGIS database managed by the Pacific States Marine Fishery Commission (http://www.ptagis.org). These changes to the tag recovery rates for both groups resulted in the changes to estimated mortality presented to the TAC on March 3, 2008 (Table 2).

Table 1. Comparison of recovery rates of jaw tags and PIT tags, 2003 preliminary results.
Group Jaw Tag % Recovery PIT Tag % Recovery
Upstream control 19.2% 97.6%
Downstream control 16.6% 95.6%
Treatment releases 13.4% 79.5%

Table 2. 2003 PIT tag survival estimates for spring Chinook. Analysis updated in late 2007 (values from preliminary 2003 analysis in parentheses).
Group Percent Survival 95% CI
Tangle Net versus upstream control (not adjusted for non-treatment method mortality sources) 84.4 (79.8) 81.8-87.0
Tangle Net versus downstream control (treatment group not adjusted for immediate mortalities due to pinniped predation) 85.3 (81.5) 82.6-88.0
Tangle Net versus downstream control (treatment group adjusted for immediate mortalities due to pinniped predation) 87.2 (NA) 84.5-89.8

Discussion
In December 2003, the TAC reviewed the study and concluded that a study design incorporating a downstream control group and PIT tags as the marking technique was most representative of the actual fishery and produced a survival estimate with narrow confidence intervals that was within the bounds of estimates generated using the jaw tag methods. The preliminary mortality rate point estimate for this combination of methods was 18.5%, with a 95% confidence interval of 15.8% – 21.3%. Based upon final tag recovery data for the treatment group (not adjusted for immediate sea lion mortalities) and the downstream control group, the final mortality rate point estimate is 14.7%, with a 95% confidence interval of 12.0% – 17.4%. The final mortality rate point estimate using the downstream control group and a treatment group with immediate pinniped mortalities removed is 12.8%. At the March 3, 2008 meeting, the TAC members agreed to recommend that managers use the mortality rate estimate of 14.7% because it is consistent with the methodology used to estimate the preliminary tangle net mortality rate in 2003, and because it incorporates some pinniped predation mortality that could be expected in the actual fishery, and thus makes the mortality estimate somewhat conservative.

There are at least two substantial follow up items resulting from this final analysis that the TAC will need to review in the coming months. First, 8-inch mesh gill nets were only evaluated in 2001 using jaw tags and an upstream control group. This gear was not evaluated using PIT tags and the preferred downstream control group. Because of this, the TAC used the relationship between mortality rates of upstream and downstream control groups identified in December 2003 to adjust the mortality rate calculated for 8-inch mesh gear. Repeating this exercise based on the latest updated relationship between upstream and downstream control groups may change our recommendation regarding the appropriate mortality rate estimate for 8-inch mesh gear if the relationship between the two control types has changed with the additional PIT tag recovery data.

Secondly, the 2001-2003 study was unable to estimate immediate or delayed mortality rates for steelhead because sample sizes of captured steelhead were small and because the study lacked a suitable steelhead control group. The methodology of the study was simply not intended to estimate steelhead survival and the results cannot be used to directly estimate steelhead mortality. In December 2003, the TAC reviewed the study and various steelhead data sets to try to interpolate mortality of steelhead using some of the Chinook results. This estimate was based upon the assumption that if steelhead were captured in similar ways (physical capture method – gilled, wedged, tangled, etc.) and in the same proportions as Chinook, then they would be expected to have a similar mortality rate. To determine this, various morphological measurements of both hatchery and wild steelhead were collected and compared to different mesh sizes to determine expected rates of each physical capture method. Physical capture methods of spring Chinook observed during onboard monitoring were also summarized for comparison. Based on this analysis, the TAC concluded that the majority of steelhead would be large enough to roughly match Chinook physical capture profiles in 4¼-inch mesh nets, with the majority of each species expected to be captured primarily by tangling around the head and mouth. Thus, the 18.5% rate calculated for spring Chinook was applied to steelhead caught with tangle nets as well. The TAC also recognized that winter steelhead encountered in the fishery migrate shorter distances and spawn sooner than Chinook, meaning this mortality rate estimate may be conservative.

Since 2003, the agencies’ onboard observation program has collected a large amount of data, including physical capture methods of Chinook and steelhead encountered in mainstem Columbia River commercial fisheries. A preliminary review of this data indicates that the physical capture methods of steelhead and Chinook in tangle nets are not as similar as previously assumed. Although tangling is the predominant capture method for both species, the average frequency of capture by tangling for steelhead may be considerably lower than the rate observed for Chinook. Capture by gilling appears to be more prevalent for steelhead than Chinook, but the frequency of wedging seems similar for both species. Gilling rates are the most important indicator of mortality in net fisheries because higher gilling rates typically equate to higher mortality. Considering the updated information on mortality of spring Chinook captured in tangle nets and observed physical capture method profiles for steelhead, the TAC intends to review the mortality rates assumed for steelhead in the near future.

TAC Recommendations
The TAC is recommending that the fishery managers use 14.7% as the release mortality rate for spring Chinook captured in 4¼-inch tangle nets beginning with the 2008 spring Chinook fisheries. The TAC also recommends that the release mortality rate for large mesh gears (8-inch or greater) and for steelhead remain unchanged at this time. During the course of 2008 TAC will conduct a detailed review of steelhead and spring Chinook mortalities rates associated with use of large mesh gear and on steelhead mortalities rates associated with use of tanglenet gear.,.


References
LeFleur, C. 2003. Recommendation for tangle net mortality rate. Memorandum to Bill Tweit and Steve King – Compact representatives, from U.S. v Oregon Technical Advisory Committee Chair. December 23, 2003.
----------------

In essence, we have no data to determine the mortality rate on ESA listed wild steelhead. Seeing as the impact allowance of those wild steelhead applies in the CR springer fishery, (still 2% I believe) it's going to be the limiting factor in their future use.

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Re: interesting letter new [Re: AuntyM]
      #341611 - 07/30/08 11:54 AM

Quote:

AuntyM said:

We'll likely always disagree, but when it comes to changing to a selective method, tangle nets just won't pass the smell test.






i think your wrong and i guess time will tell.


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Re: interesting letter new [Re: boater]
      #341613 - 07/30/08 12:02 PM

I don't think you're wrong, I KNOW you're wrong and I keep proving it.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/commercial/selective/livecapture.pdf

Quote:

The tangle net has shortcomings. As expected, it captured many more non-target species than the
conventional gill net. As with any selective fishing operation, fishers using the tangle net must
learn and use careful handling techniques to maximize survival of released fish. These include
significant changes to fishing practices, and successful implementation requires concurrent
redesign of the fishery by managers to encourage a high-priced market for a steady, but lower
volume, supply of fish.
Enforcing these types of behavioral changes is at best difficult, and a
large investment in fishery observers will likely be necessary.




It would appear WDFW does not anticipate the use of tangle nets to INCREASE commercial catch rates at all.

You probably ought not to tell me I'm the one who doesn't know what she's talking about or that I'm wrong. Especially not here on Steelheader.net.

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Re: interesting letter new [Re: AuntyM]
      #341624 - 07/30/08 12:36 PM

im some area sport fishers have to use knotless net to reduce mortality i wonder what the mortality is being tangled in the net then handled and realese seems like it woul be high

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Re: interesting letter new [Re: fishyness]
      #341625 - 07/30/08 12:43 PM

I can do one question better fishyness! Our crab and shrimp gear must have "rot cord" attached to escape holes in case the pot is lost so that trapped critters can get out.

Shouldn't gillnets which have the potential to be lost to become ghost nets that keep killing, be of material that will decay rapidly too so that they're no longer underwater hazards to marine life?



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Re: interesting letter new [Re: AuntyM]
      #341630 - 07/30/08 12:53 PM

marsha why dont you do this, talk to frank haw who is one of cca`s government relations officers and ask him if he could get Geraldine Vander Haegen to come to a cca meeting and give a spew about tangle nets, he works with her at northwest marine technology, she was one of the head researchers in the tangle net testing, i would come to the meeting although i would not join the cca.

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Re: interesting letter new [Re: boater]
      #341633 - 07/30/08 01:06 PM

Boater, I don't know Frank and I don't really care who he works with. I stated my case and I've backed it up with documentation. So far, you've just wasted bandwidth, like you always do.

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Re: interesting letter new [Re: AuntyM]
      #341639 - 07/30/08 01:39 PM

good point aunty they should be made of biodegrable material since they do not pay to remove the lost nets and as o right now one really enforces it then why the hell arnt they using bio nets? theres allot they can do to make theirselves fish freindly they just gotta get with the times

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Re: interesting letter new [Re: AuntyM]
      #341642 - 07/30/08 01:47 PM

Quote:

AuntyM said:
Boater, I don't know Frank and I don't really care who he works with. I stated my case and I've backed it up with documentation. So far, you've just wasted bandwidth, like you always do.




you have done nothing to state anything, your still banking on fish wheels or fish traps or hook and line non-tribal commercial fisherys, i think that all including tangle nets a giant waste of time, vote the clowns off the river, give the impact thats needed to sports for full seasons


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Re: interesting letter new [Re: boater]
      #341644 - 07/30/08 01:57 PM

Don't be a sore LOSER boater. You got your butt kicked royally every step of the way.

I'm banking on CCA to take whatever approach they think will work. That's why I belong to a group instead of just use the internet to try and discredit others.

However, feel free to use your personal money for another losing gillnet ban campaign, since you don't belong to any groups that can help you.

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Re: interesting letter new [Re: AuntyM]
      #341652 - 07/30/08 03:06 PM

Quote:

AuntyM said:

Don't be a sore LOSER boater. You got your butt kicked royally every step of the way.






sorry but you proved nothing


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Re: interesting letter new [Re: boater]
      #341655 - 07/30/08 03:22 PM

I actually didn't, but WDFW's own report DID. I just referenced it. For the slow learner that you appear to be, let's review!

The tangle net has shortcomings. As expected, it captured many more non-target species than the
conventional gill net. As with any selective fishing operation, fishers using the tangle net must
learn and use careful handling techniques to maximize survival of released fish. These include
significant changes to fishing practices, and successful implementation requires concurrent
redesign of the fishery by managers to encourage a high-priced market for a steady, but lower
volume, supply of fish.
Enforcing these types of behavioral changes is at best difficult, and a
large investment in fishery observers will likely be necessary.


Now couple that with the fact that they don't even KNOW what the mortality rate is on wild steelhead and it's safe to say, their use MUST be limited. Even WDFW says there will be a lower volumn supply of fish, just like I told you.

If you refuse to accept reality, that's your problem but you were wrong and it's all right there in black and white.



Now you shall go back on ignore, where trolls belong.

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The Monster Breathes!

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boater
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Re: interesting letter new [Re: AuntyM]
      #341676 - 07/30/08 06:23 PM

Quote:

AuntyM said:

Now you shall go back on ignore, where trolls belong.




good, now anyone else who is following this can check some "facts", the fact is that the non-tribal commercials caught there srping chinook in the main stem of the columbia this year using tangle nets, it all on the wdfw website, there is nothing stopping them from using them in the fall other than all the fish are not marked yet and according to the wdfw that will be here within a few years and i predict that tangle nets will be the method for the non-tribal commercials on the columbia for the future


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Re: interesting letter new [Re: boater]
      #341686 - 07/30/08 07:10 PM

The bottom line is that gill-netters, who've seen their share of harvestable fish shrink, should be able to catch and sell more fish

http://www.cbbulletin.com/Free/268493.aspx



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Re: interesting letter new [Re: boater]
      #341732 - 07/31/08 01:22 AM

Big surprise....

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Re: interesting letter new [Re: AuntyM]
      #341738 - 07/31/08 05:45 AM

Quote:

AuntyM said:
As with any selective fishing operation, fishers using the tangle net must
learn and use careful handling techniques to maximize survival of released fish. These include
significant changes to fishing practices, and successful implementation requires concurrent
redesign of the fishery by managers to encourage a high-priced market for a steady, but lower
volume, supply of fish.







Quote:

boater said:
The bottom line is that gill-netters, who've seen their share of harvestable fish shrink, should be able to catch and sell more fish










You're both right.

--------------------
'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have.' - Thomas Jefferson


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