Luke_the_Drifter
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There really is no logic that would support not allowing 209 ignition that I can see. Hell, you still have to load the damn gun from the muzzle, and you'd think they would want your rifle to fire with less problems. Better ignition means more velocity and the less chance of wounding animals. I can't figure it out, especially since so many other states allow it. It must be something political, politics always seem to trump common sense.
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Mojo
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Luke,
Some states allow the use of scopes on muzzle loaders. I figure traditional adds to the essence of the hunt. That's just me though.
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Gooose
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The politics is amongst the muzzleloader user group. Lobby them to make the change. The same issue arises in the bowhunting community where there are proponents of crossbows.
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BobK
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Well, for one, it's supposed to be a PRIMITIVE firearms hunt.
Hell, Pennsylvania still requires the use of flintlocks and open sights only!
BobK
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Luke_the_Drifter
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Well, the whole issue with using a muzzleloader for me is the single shot aspect of it, and then the time it takes to reload. Whether the powder is ignited by a 209 doesn't really seem like you have gained any advantage in firing the weapon faster, or gaining range. If they wanted to keep the hunt totally primitive they would never have allowed in-line guns. If Pennsylvania really wanted to have a primitive firearms hunt, they would only allow match-lock smooth-bore muskets with no sights.
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Tony1831
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or slingshots!
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Mojo
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Luke, Idaho doesn't allow inline guns. I guess my personal heritage lies there.
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Luke_the_Drifter
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Ah hell, it isn't a big deal anyway, just was trying to find out the reasoning behind not allowing a certain ignition system. Maybe I'll ask someone at WDFW and wait six months for an answer.
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"Curiosity is natural to the soul of man and interesting objects have a powerful influence on our affections."---Daniel Boone
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Gooose
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http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/seasonsetting/2006-2008_hunting_season_alt_survey_results.pdf
page Alternative #10
Looks like 40% want to be able to use a 209 primer.
I'll check it out but I believe the commission is having a 2 day hearing around August 2nd and 3rd regarding hunting seasons and regulations for next year.
Luke it'll probably take about 10 days for a response via e-mail. My turn around time in responding to such queries is within 48 hours from the time I receive it. Sorry but I can't help with firearm regulations unless it happens to be in regards to a clam gun. 
I am all for anything that ensures that a quick kill will happen.
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BBob
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"I am all for anything that ensures that a quick kill will happen."
You mean there's still hope for the return of the 8ga. and lead shot? Bill
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Gooose
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Nope but I sure would like to be able to use an 1 5/8 load of lead #2 on top of some blue dot in a 2 3/4 inch Activ case at about 1450 fps. Those were the days.  Black n blue shoulder and rippen birds out of the sky. 
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Gooose
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Black powder shotgun loads were also a hoot back when you could use lead. Couldn't use them in an autoloader but a side by side was fun shiat. Smoke on the water! Sorry Luke for hijacking your thread.
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Luke_the_Drifter
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Hijack away Goose, and thanks for the info. I'm all for threads about big smoky guns and birds falling from the sky.
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Mojo
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Quote:
Gooose said:
.... Sorry but I can't help with firearm regulations unless it happens to be in regards to a clam gun.
Thanks Gooose! Maybe it's just me, but that made me shoot coffee out my nose. The sinuses needed a good cleaning anyhow.
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Luke_the_Drifter
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I've got a single shot clam gun, but I'm upgrading to a Model 70 Winchester lever action repeater.
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Trouthead
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I've always wondered about why someone would want to shoot clams but a bigger question is why shoot Potatoes?
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Mojo
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Dude, if you never shot a spud gun, you are missing out on one of lifes greatest joys. Ever seen a tater fly 400 yards? We launch 'em at jackrabbits. Some day I'll hit one. (You know you used too much propellant if you shoot mashed potatoes)
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Mojo
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I would shoot clams, but I can't find any that fit tight enough in my clam gun...
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Gooose
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Best time to experience the full effect of shooting black powder shotgun loads was that gloomy misty first 5 minutes of legal shooting time. Cut loose that first barrel on a mallard dropping into your dekes. Hella of a roar and muzzle flash followed by a big cloud of smoke shot thru with sparks. Then you wait an unbearable couple seconds to realize whether you dropped the bird or not. 
My father had found some actual old school shell casings and reloading setup for blackpowder 12 ga. Cases were completely made out of brass. Loaded us boys up a bunch to try out. Ballistics were actually pretty similar to smokeless modern ammo. We did try some paper cased loads in an autoloader....blackpowder gummed it up real fast.
Luke I believe that if enough people like yourself made reasoned arguments to WDFW in regards to the 209 being a benefit to ensuring humane kills they will listen. Personally I have never hunted with a muzzleloader but I can't for the life of me see any reasonable difference between a 209 primer and a traditional cap other than the latter would give people the feeling that they were a Davey Crockett. People want real tradition how about prohibiting modern fabrics for clothing whilst hunting with a muzzleloader? Buckskins and a racoon cap required. Seems to me the 209 primer is a worthy cause to pursue for the animals sake.
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BBob
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You can use the 209's, just hunt in the modern season. You'll even get a longer season by doing that. You can't go wrong with a deal like that.  Bill
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imanate
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I know this is a side note, but speaking of primitive, Alabama actually lists SPEARS as one of it's acceptable primitive weapons!
http://www.outdooralabama.com/hunting/regulations/regs.cfm
page 24 of the pdf document (21 of the regulation book)
I've chuckled about that for years.
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Dogfish
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I'm in for hunting with a spear.
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Luke_the_Drifter
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I wonder if it's legal to hunt with a cliff, like the tribes did at Buffalo Jump? That's an effective way of hunting, but probably wasteful, as a total percentage of useable meat.
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Dogfish
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We play hammer and anvil at times, but instead of a cliff we have a few hunters waiting at a choke point.
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Washougal
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You can hunt with any type ingnition you want in WA ot OR you just can't hunt the extended primitive season. Makes sense to me,the states that let you use both now have smokepoles with high power scopes on them being used.
Not much primitve about that.
Have hunted with my .50 cal CVA Mountain rifle for over 30 years now, after switching to a Mike's nipple right after buying the rifle I've had zero ignition problems in all that time.
Nothing like worrying about a non-problem. Primitive hunting is just that pilgrim. Spend the time to learn to use your smokepole and you won't waste any meat. There's nothing about the newer styled weapons of any type that guarantee that the meat you shoot at goes down.
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Ahab
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I think it has more to do with the manufactures lobbying for rules changes. Most 'primitive' hunters either purchase replicas or build their own charcoal burners. Hunting primitive in WA takes a lot of prep and knowledge to even make the damn thing fire after a day of combing jack firs in the rain. Not many left willing to test their skills and ability. Buying a scoped rifle with a fool proof ignition and sabot round you can scope from the landings makes for a lot more money being spent.
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Dogfish
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Late ML buck start in a week!
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Lead_Bouncer
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Quote:
BobK said:
Well, for one, it's supposed to be a PRIMITIVE firearms hunt.
Hell, Pennsylvania still requires the use of flintlocks and open sights only!
BobK
no wonder they have so many deer.
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