Gooose
Offline
Ancient Mod
Profile Status:
Reged: 09/14/01
Posts: 13071
Loc: In The Briar Patch
|
|
They are just about finished replacing the culvert under Hwy 104 next to our house. Cost of the actual construction was $485k....unknown what all of the planning, engineering and other administrative costs were. The resident cutts will like it but considering there isn't enough water in the stream in the fall for anything larger than a 6 inch fish to swim in there's a few of us locals wondering what kind of benefit to wild salmon will be the results? The only historical salmon presence we can identify was the planting of 350...yes only 350....Coho fry above the culvert 15 years ago. Money well spent?
--------------------
"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
|
GrimmReaper
Offline
Chromer
Profile Status:
Reged: 07/01/04
Posts: 790
Loc: Pasco, WA
|
|
Goose you could probably double the Construction Cost to come up with a Project Total...at least on a road project. Add 25-33% of Direct Constructions costs on a new ground up building.
--------------------
DAWG IT (verb) - To play an entire season of a sport and remain completely defeated.
Taking fish to the afterlife...
"For you catch your next fish with a piece of the last"-Oliver Wendell Holmes, 1894
JOIN CCA
|
Quillback
Offline
South of the Mason/Dixon line
Profile Status:
Reged: 02/08/02
Posts: 3154
Loc: Arkansas
|
|
Seems like it could have been spent elsewhere for greater effect.
--------------------
I'd rather be fishing
|
Tally
Offline
Man of Steel
Profile Status:
Reged: 02/23/04
Posts: 2195
Loc: In my Sled
|
|
but somebody got a star on their frig some where for that project
--------------------
There's only one other thing I'd rather be doing than fishing......Gettin' ready to GO fishing
Member, Friend's of the Cowlitz
|
Lead_Bouncer
Offline
25 dollar expert since 2007
Profile Status:
Reged: 08/09/07
Posts: 2277
Loc: king county
|
|
Is there a list of culverts to be replaced. Perhaps some independent review of the benefit.
--------------------
|
Gooose
Offline
Ancient Mod
Profile Status:
Reged: 09/14/01
Posts: 13071
Loc: In The Briar Patch
|
|
There's probably several lists. Much of it may be available online....I can drag up some links this weekend. The independent review thing may be finally happening soon for all of these so called restoration projects.  I've been busy. 
--------------------
"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
|
Gooose
Offline
Ancient Mod
Profile Status:
Reged: 09/14/01
Posts: 13071
Loc: In The Briar Patch
|
|
If the bill for this bogus salmon habitat project came out to $500,000 they could have funded a detachment of LE with those wasted dollars for 2 years dedicated to nothing else but dealing with illegal habitat destruction. Sure would like to see an organization recognizing this and seriously advocating for some changes. 
--------------------
"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
|
workin4fishin
Offline
Chromer - I wonder what one looks like up close
Profile Status:
Reged: 09/13/02
Posts: 3267
Loc: Monroe WA
|
|
How 'bout $3 million for a ~20' culvert for a seasonal stream that has at least 2 impassable fish barriers downstream?
Bone dry for most of the summer, 200' elevation gain in less than a mile of stream bed, and a very old small legacy dam on private land. Yeah, good thing they spent our money on that culvert.
Meanwhile, several miles downstream on the main river that this trickle feeds into, there are abandoned sunken boats, leaking barges, industrial effluent, and thousands of old creosote pilings...
Upstream, there is a project under works to 'restore wetlands' (that haven't been wet in 50+ yrs even when the 100 yr floods hit) and when they breach the dike, they will destroy several productive holes in the main channel.
|
Gooose
Offline
Ancient Mod
Profile Status:
Reged: 09/14/01
Posts: 13071
Loc: In The Briar Patch
|
|
http://www.sharedsalmonstrategy.org/resources.htm
Doug you'll have to dig thru the resources in the above link to find most of the projects. The only real way to judge the merits or lack thereof each project is for someone with local knowledge to review the ones in their area of knowledge. Pain in the butt I know but the only way to get started on it.
W4F that's an interesting but not surprising example of what's wrong with saving salmon in this state. Where might it be located?
The guiding principle seems to be that if anything has been constructed in a shoreline or waterway by humans it is by default evil and must be removed at all costs. I know of several examples where basic concepts of what is good in regards to habitat structure are actually classed as evil simply due to there being artificial. Reality is that removal in those cases decreases ecosystem functions that are valuable even though they are artificial.
--------------------
"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
|
Lead_Bouncer
Offline
25 dollar expert since 2007
Profile Status:
Reged: 08/09/07
Posts: 2277
Loc: king county
|
|
thanks Brady. I looked through it, but I could not find the section for culvert replacement. I did have some problem going beyond the online format, when the PDF showed individual projects by region or river, I could not get the details to a readable format.
I will look again later.
--------------------
|
workin4fishin
Offline
Chromer - I wonder what one looks like up close
Profile Status:
Reged: 09/13/02
Posts: 3267
Loc: Monroe WA
|
|
Brady, the project I was referring to was part of the WA-522 over pass over Paradise Lake Rd. The culvert is at ~200' above the Snohomish, and upstream of the mentioned barriers. On the day it opened a few yrs ago, I tried to walk the stream. I shouldn't have brought waders, let alone boots. That was in early May IIRC.
I dug into the project docs a few yrs ago, and found some incredible leaps in logic, used to support the habitat protection measures, and false wetlands mitigation (They created 'wetlands' as part of the project and then had to protect them.)
The background research was not even a lit review, but a lit review twice removed I couldn't even find a ref to any original or actual ground work. For the 'typical flora/fauna survey' they quoted two studies done in the 60's, one in Calif, and one at UW that cited the Calif study. Neither were an actual count, but collections of inferences based on what would typically be present in that type of area, terrain, watershed, blah blah blah. I never realized that Calif wolverine were in the woods behind our town.
|
Lead_Bouncer
Offline
25 dollar expert since 2007
Profile Status:
Reged: 08/09/07
Posts: 2277
Loc: king county
|
|
Workin, I had no idea they expected fish to swim all the way up there. Would it be a good guess that the creek was never actually surveyed before the project or do they do the projects backwards do to the permanent nature of the new hiway project. Thats just insane. How long had the private dam been in place?
--------------------
|
Gooose
Offline
Ancient Mod
Profile Status:
Reged: 09/14/01
Posts: 13071
Loc: In The Briar Patch
|
|
Likely it wasn't physically surveyed. See a lot of restoration projects designed by engineer types based simply upon maps, aerial photos, satellite images, GIS technology and computer models. I use those tools in my work but back them up with onsite surveys. The biology portion of the work is most often done by "Google" scientists.
--------------------
"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
|
Lead_Bouncer
Offline
25 dollar expert since 2007
Profile Status:
Reged: 08/09/07
Posts: 2277
Loc: king county
|
|
how may different agencies have to sign off on this sloppy google science and the engineer. It serves no purpose to go on a witch hunt, but a little extra effort can eliminate the cost of a worthless project or at least by survey, accurately show that more work is needed and redeemable. I have a hunch many projects have multiple barriers. If the only way a fish is going back up that creek, is to drag it there or create a fish box project, it would seem logical to have a realistic plan or move on to another project. The creek that W4F is talking about has residential, farm, at least on county road to cross before it hits the river somewhere below the bridge.
What am I leaving out?
--------------------
|
Gooose
Offline
Ancient Mod
Profile Status:
Reged: 09/14/01
Posts: 13071
Loc: In The Briar Patch
|
|
An appointed board of highly respected experts sign off on these projects. They use guidelines created by other highly respected experts. The unquestionable science generated by those advisers is based nearly all on principles and philosophies of whatever published literature supports the desired results of receiving project approval including that which places California wolverines in the Snohomish watershed. Actual site specific fieldwork to gather relevant data prior to a project being submitted for approval and actual determination of results aka Empirical and Applied science is messy science to those rooted in offices of respect as experts in Theoretical science. How dare anyone challenge the Pharisees in their temple? 
--------------------
"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
|
AuntyM
Offline
Looking for a few good fish!
Profile Status:
Reged: 05/07/01
Posts: 11849
Loc: Harstine Island
|
|
The real danger in this is that I suspect some tribes are using the same habitat game plan in their "culvert" demands.
--------------------
http://www.ccapnw.org
Deficit neutral, the new "big lie"
"Don't fall in!" Doug Richert Sr. 10/18/2008 
|
jimh
Offline
Salted and Unsalted Boater!
Profile Status:
Reged: 10/27/02
Posts: 5533
Loc: Area 8.1, 8.2, 9 or an S river...
|
|
I'd like to see Habitat Restoration include removing all nets that aren't naturally occurring.
--------------------
Wear a PFD if you want to live.
|
Tally
Offline
Man of Steel
Profile Status:
Reged: 02/23/04
Posts: 2195
Loc: In my Sled
|
|
I'm with you, Jim.
--------------------
There's only one other thing I'd rather be doing than fishing......Gettin' ready to GO fishing
Member, Friend's of the Cowlitz
|
workin4fishin
Offline
Chromer - I wonder what one looks like up close
Profile Status:
Reged: 09/13/02
Posts: 3267
Loc: Monroe WA
|
|
"...How long had the private dam been in place?..."
Dunno if the dam was originally private, but I remember seeing something about it having been there 50+ yrs. I talked to someone who has lived in the area since the mid 50's and says he's known about it since he was a kid.
"..based simply upon maps, aerial photos, satellite images, GIS technology and computer models..."
That alone should have shown the folly, as the rise is much too high for a reasonable fish bearing stream. Also, the old dam is on every map I've ever seen of the area. Topo lines actually indicate a possible waterfall (which is what got me interested initially)
"...The creek that W4F is talking about has residential, farm, at least on county road to cross before it hits the river somewhere below the bridge. What am I leaving out? ..."
I've not spent the time to walk it, but there has to be some very steep sections to be able to make the elevation gain to the culvert. Now ya done got me curious again. If only I could find a company that would hire me to expose gov't waste. I guess that would be too easy a job in WA state.
I wanna be the 'Boondoggle Czar'
|
Salmo_g
Offline
king
Profile Status:
Reged: 12/29/04
Posts: 139
Loc: south Sound
|
|
Quote:
Gooose said:
An appointed board of highly respected experts sign off on these projects. They use guidelines created by other highly respected experts. The unquestionable science generated by those advisers is based nearly all on principles and philosophies of whatever published literature supports the desired results of receiving project approval including that which places California wolverines in the Snohomish watershed. Actual site specific fieldwork to gather relevant data prior to a project being submitted for approval and actual determination of results aka Empirical and Applied science is messy science to those rooted in offices of respect as experts in Theoretical science. How dare anyone challenge the Pharisees in their temple?
Oh, I've got a severe headache after reading that one! It is daunting. A like-minded co-worker casually warned me a few weeks back to "keep my head low" in regards to a biologically logical restoration plan that apparently doesn't jive with the Puget Sound Chinook Recovery Plan that flat out doesn't fit the location in question. It's a funny world out there in salmon restoration land!
|
Lead_Bouncer
Offline
25 dollar expert since 2007
Profile Status:
Reged: 08/09/07
Posts: 2277
Loc: king county
|
|
I love a good internal leak.
--------------------
|
Gooose
Offline
Ancient Mod
Profile Status:
Reged: 09/14/01
Posts: 13071
Loc: In The Briar Patch
|
|
Exciting times to be a simple muddy biologist Salmo. Sorry for the headache...I was in one of my moods last night due to interactions with some of the Pharisee's acolytes yesterday.
--------------------
"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
|
Gooose
Offline
Ancient Mod
Profile Status:
Reged: 09/14/01
Posts: 13071
Loc: In The Briar Patch
|
|
I particularly liked the response of an environmental engineer when asked about the benefits of an $200,000 estuarine project in Grays Harbor. He couldn't provide anything at all specifically but suggested it might cause a reduction in the silt depths built up over decades by a couple centimeters across the several acres of tideflats that would be affected.   Course the removal of the old road fill would also decrease shoreline complexity. That's a real empirical negative result as opposed to a maybe positive effect. Damn messy science?
--------------------
"Seen worse".....
It's Gonna Be A Long Winter
There's lies, damned lies and then there are statistics......Mark Twain
Spam Kills x 8
|
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Edit
Reply
Quote
[Re: