Trouthead
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I've been reading the draft of the proposed WDFW Hatchery and Fishery Reform and a question came up from one of my co-workers (non-fisherperson). If we restore the wild fish, what are we going to do with them? Is the plan to restart wild fish harvest, just look at them or what? Everyone's goal is to restore them but then what?
I had no answer to the question outside of "we should restore them, we messed them up". Their response was "We've messed up lots of stuff that we are not trying to fix so why these fish"?
I need help to get this person off my back.
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Trouthead
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Thick Tail
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bringing back wild fish is a oxymoron in any river that has a stocking program more than 20 year or less. Now if two hatchery fish spawn and there fry come back unclipped they are now wild fish? Also if they stop planting are they going to close that river to protect the fry from the two hatchery fish as wild fish? Fish in the rivers have a few that just get lost to expand the gene pool it's a genetic thing. So if they stop planting and keep everyone from fishing then the nets will get the fish to feed the people so we can just stay home and play on computers.
But wait all the tax money from fishing tackle will stop flowing in so they will tax the internet to make up for the losted money. I'll stop now.
Sorry Trouthead this was building up and just came out.
WFFF
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Trouthead
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WFFF, you should have been on a conference call with us. We had the same conversation and I couldn't get myself out.
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Trouthead
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Misguided
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My take on this logic from WDFG is;
They want to rebuild the Wild stocks (hatchery strays) in all Wa. rivers to reach acceptable levels (??) so that the hatcheries program (the money pit) can be eliminated. Thus will entail that for a good while (which is not yet determined) sportfishers will not be able to fish because the hachery fish will be depleted and the Wild fish(hatchery strays) will be off limits untill the WDFG decide if the Wild stocks (hatchery strays) are at acceptable levels to let sportfishers fish for Wild fish (hatchery strays).
And all during this time sportfishers will have to watch the the tribal & non-tribal commercial gill netters mopping up what's left of the inferior hatchery fish AND the Wild fish (hatchery strays) on TV!!!!! 
You decide.
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Thick Tail
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T.H. I have almost been asked to leave a meeting in the early 90's for telling them to get there heads out of there a&&'s or just plant stripers(for funn) and we would have a big fish to catch again.
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Gooose
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1. Hatcheries are not going to go away
2. Significant changes are going to occur in hatchery programs
3. Wild fish restoration is generally not achievable
4. Some wild fish runs may be restored to levels allowing greater mortality rates directly and indirectly. Primarily this restoration will allow increased harvest rates of hatchery fish and/or wild fish still in healthy numbers.
5. Wild fish restoration provides jobs and make certain people wealthy. If we restore wild fish then that would result in unemployment.
6. Wild fish restoration garners votes.
7. Wild fish restoration attracts Federal dollars.
8. Blaming the tribes/nontribal commercials is convenient.
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MikalBell
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Took the words out of my outh Goose. And how refreshing to know someone else knows about #5. That one gets overlooked far too often. A good friend of mine and long time Peninsula resident once said to me "An endangered Salmon is worth more money to the goverment than an entire healthy run to everyone else"
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Lead_Bouncer
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The govt doesnt have any money. Therefore, its worth a shot to put as many river as possible back into the natural selection process.
Smart people always know what cant be done. Then someone comes along and proves them wrong. No different than the flat earth society. They are working on medical science that could stop the aging process. But who would believe, living to a 1000 is possible.
If it not possible, why are there salmonids trying to spawn in the rivers of south america. The werent even original to the great lakes. I dont know if thats a continuous hatchery program or not....
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Lead_Bouncer
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The govt doesnt have its own money. Therefore, its worth a shot to put as many river as possible back into the natural selection process. If we cant have a sustainable wild run, a hatchery run will do.
Smart people always know what cant be done. Then someone comes along and proves them wrong. No different than the flat earth society. They are working on medical science that could stop the aging process. But who would believe, living to a 1000 is possible.
If it not possible, why are there salmonids trying to spawn in the rivers of south america. The werent even original to the great lakes. I dont know if thats a continuous hatchery program or not....
But never, is a long time.
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Snagly
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I'm surprised that this debate hasn't yet delved into the various types of "hatchery" fish. The Canuck websites I monitor are green with envy at the huge numbers of Columbia basin returning steelheads this year. Meanwhile, historically US-based board members bemoan the reliance on out-of-stream genetic stock (or at the least, not using wild broodstock each year as the source of the plants, thereby meaning that the smolts are always the progeny of wild parents, in-system if possible).
Then there's the Alaska (salmon) model that apparently has worked OK, whereby the hatcheries do just that -- hatch out fry -- and then dump them into the creek in huge numbers at a young age to fend for themselves. (Obviously, this doesn't work with every species depending on how many years in the fresh they typically need, and the optimal conditions thereof for survival.)
My points are that not all hatchery fish are created equal, and that if we want to work towards a wild fish (defined as "self reproducing" and not "in-system original genetic stock") enhanced fishery then there are plenty of options to consider (and debate).
I also believe that the fish . . . if not hammered by commercials or compromised by continually degraded habitat . . . could very well surprise all of us on the upside.
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There's two types of anglers who fish fall steelhead on the Skeena and its tribs: thems thats got a spoon tied on, and thems that thinks that they should be usin' a spoon.
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AuntyM
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Snagly must be smarter than he looks. 
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Gooose
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"Smart people always know what can't be done. Then occasionally someone or random chance comes along and proves them wrong."
LB I fixed your post for you so it actually matches history a bit more accurately. 
The reason salmonids have done so well in S. America and the Great Lakes is quite simple. Read up on the issues regarding non-native invasive species sometime so it becomes clear to you why.
Snagly an example of what we face here in regards to wild fish restoration. The Duckabush River historically produced around a 1,000 wild Chinook per year. It has near zero now and what's there are the children of Green River-Soos Creek hatchery outplants of fry over several decades. Even if the run was restored to that historical 1000 wild fish there isn't anyway to sustain that number given existing harvest regimes which includes harvest in Alaskan, BC and Washington waters by tribal, non tribal commercial fisheries and recreational fishing targeting a mixed pool of Chinook. We shall continue worshipping the altar of restoring those fish though forever because once we start admitting that we can't achieve restoration the entire restoration Ponzi scheme becomes a house of cards.
Yes LB never is a very long time. You watch Jurassic Park? Yes it is feasible to bring back dinosaurs. Miracles and science are awesome things. 
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Lead_Bouncer
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I love school.
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Snagly
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Gooose, what do you think is the most cost effective way of getting enough fish back into the (e.g.) Duckabush to provide for some commercial/ tribal/ recreational exploitation?
Is there a "cheap hatchery" option that dispenses with the [possible/ likely] myth of wild fish restoration?
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There's two types of anglers who fish fall steelhead on the Skeena and its tribs: thems thats got a spoon tied on, and thems that thinks that they should be usin' a spoon.
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AuntyM
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Does it matter Snagly? Chinook and steelhead are listed so we will stay on the hamster wheel trying to recover them because the ESA says we will.
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Tally
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Gary Loomis brought back Cedar Cr. with egg boxes and dead carcasses.
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Thick Tail
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Tally I was thinking the same thing.
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AuntyM
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Gary was working with coho that were genetically native to that system. The one Gooose is referring to doesn't have any native stock left to work with. Please note the harvest regimes he mentioned that will be a further barrier. He could have said it, but didn't. For all intents and purposes, they are already extinct. For the feds and state to say so would prevent "some groups" from getting their recovery pork, not to mention they'd have to admit most of their recovery plans are full of crap.
As far as steelhead, Lake Cushman, behind the dams on the Skok still have rainbows, and I believe the attempt is going to be made to use them with the remaining steelhead in the Skok. It's probable that those fish can colonize the other HC rivers some day.
One of the things I am finding out living where I do... this is the furthest reach of the sound and every fishery is conducted on these fish before they make it this far. That's a LOT of fishing pressure.
If we didn't have hatcheries, there would be no fish. If not for the Squaxin tribe, things would be dismal indeed. IMO, they are under-appreciated and kicked around when they really deserve our gratitude.
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Snagly
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Squaxin tribe? Please tell us more, Aunty.
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There's two types of anglers who fish fall steelhead on the Skeena and its tribs: thems thats got a spoon tied on, and thems that thinks that they should be usin' a spoon.
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Gooose
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The mid HC chinook stock is extinct. You can cram as many egg boxes with hatchery stock from anywhere else in those 3 rivers and dump a couple thousand tons of carcass, in them and the wild stock will remain extinct and you'll get back at best a 100 genetically unfit chinook just like they do now.
What Gary actually accomplished on Cedar Creek is questionable in regards to restoring a functioning wild return that would survive without continued use of egg boxes. Sorry but that is not a wild self sustaining run. At best it is simply a different form of hatchery production.
All of the rivers on the west side of the Canal have resident Rainbows which may allow wild winter steelhead to rebound. If WDFW will just shut down rivers all year long for trouts fishing.
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AuntyM
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Snagly, whatever gets done here on the western side of the south sound to benefit fish and shellfish is mostly done by the Squaxin Tribe. I could list some I remember off the top of my head, like their work to help remove the dam on Goldsborough Creek and all the habitat work, but maybe you'd get more from reading a couple years worth of their blog? http://www.squaxin-nr.org/
Much of this is done out of tribal money. Besides a casino, they manufacture cigarettes.
Rather than have a negative "chip" on the shoulder attitude that I've experienced elswhere... these folks are positive and upbeat. They also tend to beach seine more than gillnet.
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Todd R
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The Cedar Creek egg boxes are virtually irrelevant...the creek is right across the river from the second biggest industrial hatchery in the PNW, after the Cowlitz...when it rains and fills the river and creek up with lots of water, the creek fills up with hatchery fish...I thought we were all over pretending that the hatch boxes did anything at all.
Fish on...
Todd
P.S. If we're not over that fantasy already, we should be.
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