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Black_GhostModerator
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Fly Fishing Historical Trivia
      #83722 - 11/11/03 04:48 AM

With winter setting in here is a subject to keep your fly fishing acumen up since many of us will have less time on the rivers (except for the winter steelheaders like me)?

I think the one who answers the most questions correctly first will be given an assorted collection of flies from BGs over stuffed walletts !

Trivia # 1:

Who is given historical credit as the father of american fly fishing ?

Trivia # 2:

Which american city has trout creek running underneath its streets ?

Remember the first one to answer correctly is the winner and will be based upon the date and time of their response in this thread.

Please identify your source for the answer in your response book, web page link, etc..

Good luck to all participants.

Note: Some of these trivia questions you will not find with internet searches so we will determine who the real fly fishing subject matter experts over the long run of the contest.



BG

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Jane Wagner




Edited by Black_Ghost (11/11/03 05:10 AM)


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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: Black_Ghost]
      #83727 - 11/11/03 05:37 AM

Theodore Gordon comes to mind first, but with a tad bit of research I believe it to be Thaddeus Norris. (http://www.flyfishinghistory.com/)

Berkley and Kalamazoo both come to mind on the subterranean creek... No reference other than my mushy brain.

Hal, I wish I'd saved these questions from last year when we did this on Thomas' board!

-G


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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: gstrand]
      #83734 - 11/11/03 07:10 AM

Seattle also has a few creeks under it's city streets. And I thought it was Lee Wulff that got it all started in America. But what do I know I'm just an old man.

Jim


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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: oldman]
      #83738 - 11/11/03 07:34 AM

Trivia # 1: Gstrands answer of Uncle Thaddeus Norris is correct. (Gus, Thats one I asked last winter on Thomas's board. You know who got it right first ! LOL)

Trivia # 2: Not the answers I am looking for. So this one remains open.

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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: Black_Ghost]
      #83747 - 11/11/03 08:27 AM

Where is Neil when we need him?!



-G


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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: gstrand]
      #83792 - 11/11/03 11:31 AM

If Neil shows up I am going to have to take it to the expert level quickly. That fellow is a walking fly fishing history encylopedia. LOL

Heres two more to start thinking on:

Trivia # 3:

What was the first fly tied specifically for PNW steelhead ? Its name, tyers name and dressing.

Trivia # 4:

What famous fly fisherman and author was also a CIA agent ?

(Hint I doubt if you will find these answers on the internet)



BG

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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: Black_Ghost]
      #83825 - 11/11/03 03:22 PM

Not being a smart-ass, New York City has brook trout in some of the subterranean riverlets. (I think with a little judicious looking, other cities with simolar conditions could be found.)

BobK

Edited by BobK (11/11/03 03:23 PM)


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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: BobK]
      #83832 - 11/11/03 03:39 PM

BoB,he's not looking for our answers. He want's one answer and it seems no matter what we put up there it will probably be wrong.

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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: oldman]
      #83985 - 11/12/03 12:32 PM

Bobk,

Trivia # 2 Answer:

Please state your source for that answer. Empirical evidence is needed to corroborate SWAGs.



I will take the correct answer corroborated by a reliable independent source from any one in the world.

BG

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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: Black_Ghost]
      #84007 - 11/12/03 02:55 PM

I won't dignify your comment with a response. The answer was correct.

BobK


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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: BobK]
      #84152 - 11/13/03 05:43 AM

Bobk, please read the rules. This is the not Enron/Andersen/World Com/Global Crossing unethical fly fishing trivia contest.

Your dealing with a highly ethical business executive.

See below for the rule on source of information for corroboration purposes other wise we will be arguing who has the right answer all of the time.



"Please identify your source for the answer in your response book, web page link, etc.. "

Anywhay New York City is the correct answer per my empirical source. I will provide full details of the answer by next Wednesday along with the answers to the other questions that remain unanswered.

I will also discuss with the FF Trivia Management Committee how uncorroborrated correct answers should be judged. Perhaps with partial point credit.

Good luck to every one on the other answers I will be working on the next set of trivia.



BG

P.S. I cannot believe no one has tryed to answer Trivia # 3 yet.

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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: BobK]
      #84158 - 11/13/03 05:57 AM

I'm right and you're wrong, Hal. Geez. You'd think we were talking politics or riding in the back of a station wagon here...

Mom! Hal looked at me!
He looked at me first!
No I didnt!
Yess you did!
ewwwwww! he spit on me!
MOM!

I believe Hal said to play the game we needed to state our source. It's his ball, and his flies he's giving away. I don't get the cause for any terseness.

-G?


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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: gstrand]
      #84185 - 11/13/03 09:12 AM

BG,

The first PNW fly was probably the No. 1 Special tied by Wharton. I'm unsure of the dressing. Combs doesn't mention the dressing. I'll look again though.


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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: I_fish]
      #84195 - 11/13/03 09:51 AM

Skunk?

"Some believe that the first Skunk was tied for the Stillaguamish River during the 1930s by Wes Drain of Seattle, Washington. Joe Howell of Idleyld Park, Oregon, believes the Skunk originated on the North Umpqua River during the early 1940s." -Flies for Steelhead, Stewart/Allen

Also, on the CIA one, this is a good little read, even though I doubt James Jesus Angleton is the answer: http://www.secretpolicy.com/portrait.html

-G


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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: gstrand]
      #84196 - 11/13/03 10:05 AM

Hey, Hal - don't forget you're talking to a retired highly-educated (lots of degrees from excellent schools) chemist/environmental engineer who worked on environmental problems and projects all over NY state and Texas. I personally have SEEN 'em during construction in Manhattan - held one in my hand, too - and they are small and pale from time spent underground. But they DO inhabit the aquifers.... don't insult a guy's integrity or intelligence by asking for some dumb "empirical" source.

Maybe some have to look this stuff up, but when you have "been there-done that", the answer is obvious.

PS - I didn't want to bring this up - but you forced it.

BobK


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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: BobK]
      #84246 - 11/13/03 03:49 PM

I don't think I belong here. Just barely thru high skool and dumber than a box of rocks. But I like to read so when I answer something it is a answer out of a book and no I don't remember every book I read. just a dumb old man.

Jim


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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: oldman]
      #84253 - 11/13/03 04:50 PM

Jim - you are NOT a dumb old man.
If I didn't spend time in the Marines, and thanks to the Korean Bill, I wouldn't have gotten my education. Then, thanks to employers, they sent me for further education.

Don't EVER say you don't belong here - we all take our pants off one leg at a time. Book learning doesn't make the man - it's how you use what you got.

BobK

Edited by BobK (11/13/03 04:53 PM)


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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: BobK]
      #84398 - 11/14/03 10:35 AM

Yeah, I have to say it was Joe Wharton in Grants Pass. The fly was the No. 1 Special and it would have been commercially available in about 1926 as this is one of the flys Zane Grey used on his first trip to the Umpqua.

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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: I_fish]
      #85500 - 11/20/03 08:40 AM

Bobk well if you have seen them thats good enough for me but it seems like we should be able to find some other reliable documented source on this other than my one source which as follows:

Trivia # 2.

Source: McClanes Angling World - A. J. McClane - 1986 - Truman Tally Books - Chapter - The Country of our Youth pages 44-46.

"In 1734 the Common Council of what was to be the city of New York passed a law that restricted trout fishing n then popular Collect Pond to " Angling with Angle Rod, Hook and Line, only." Although the island of Manhattan was fissured with ponds and streams, the early settlers had already netted some of these waters to near depletion. During the next two centuries, the ponds were filled, the streams funneled into conduits, and the whole island gradually covered with asphalt. Seemngly, all of the ghosts of the past were forever sealed from view. Then, in 1956 when a water main broke on 58th street and Madison Avenue, plumbing expert Jack Gasnick found a brook trout flopping in the gutter as water poured down the street. Like most of his compatriots who work the citys underground, Mr. Gasnick has taken a variety of fish over the years, including pickeral, carp, goldfish, smelt, catfish and eels. But this was his first trout. possibly a relic from the Turtle Bay Stream, which still meanders under the East 50s. According to Mr. Gastnick who has since netted trout in the flooded basements of 301 and 325 East 52nd Street, the stream is audible, as it whimpers behind walls and below cellars. Plumbing suppliers and troubleshooters have alsocollected numerous specimens adding yellow perch and striped bass to the Big Apples absymal list. One brook trout erupted from the outlet pipe of a lobby fountain in a newly built Greenwich Village apartment house which straddles the site of which was another productive stream Minetta Brook. I won't speculate on the underground life of salmonids, as I can't even imagine what the PH of a Manhattan water main migh be, God knows how trout feed or reproduce in a no photo period environment.. Maybe just wander down from the Catskills along some labryinthian path and get mugged by a bib faucet. The point is this beautiful native American Char should have vanished over most of its original range years ago but its spirit is indomnitable".

Trivia 1 and 2 are answered.

Looks like Trivia 3 and 4 will need to be answered by me. Trivia 3 appears may have several answers.

Gstrand, interesting article on Angleton I had heard of him but did not know he was one of us.

BG

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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: Black_Ghost]
      #85561 - 11/20/03 04:07 PM

Actually, NY City water is of VERY good quality - it should be, as they dammed up several VERY GOOD Catskill trout streams to give them a water supply. Actually, they have such archaic plumbing in NY City, that they potentially leak the equivalent of a couple of Beaverkills at any given time - and that's water stolen from the "upstaters", farmers who had their land "condemned", and sportsmen. Hell, they have one of the best and purest water supplies in the country!

BobK


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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: BobK]
      #85677 - 11/21/03 06:59 AM

Trivia # 3:

What was the first fly tied specifically for PNW steelhead ? Its name, tyers name and dressing.

Answer:

Source: The Master and His Fish - R.H. Brown. edited by A. Haig Brown. 1981.

"The Evolution of a Steelhead Fly - 1976

Just fifty years ago (1926) I went into a tackle store on the Pacific Coast and asked if I could see some steelhead flies. The clerk shook his head in wonderment and perhaps stress. Then he hollared into the back of ths store: Say Al, guy here wants steelhead flies. We got any ?

Al came out obviously somewhat puzzled. Never had any call for them he said. What kind of flies would they be? Then he brightened . Wait a minute I think I got some back here. He disappeared briefly and came back with some enormous dusty cards to each of which was sewn a single enourmous fly. The hook size was about 2/0 as U reckall it, but the irones were heavy enough to hold a shark. The most prominenet pattern was a red ibis with a gleaming scarlet body at least three eighths of an inch thick and dyed swan wing almost large enough to lift the original owner. There was a coachman of similarly opulent proportions, a trout pattern Silver Doctor and probably a Royal Coachman, though I am not sure of this.

I bought them of course who could resist ? but I don't think I ever recall putting one in the water.


Trivia # 4:

What famous fly fisherman and author was also a CIA agent ?

AJ Mclane who was an army officer in WWII After WWII became a outdoor writer travelled to many foreign countries and upon his return would debrief CIA officers of what he learned travelling and fishing through out the country. Have to dig up my source on this one its in one of my old FF magazines.

After this first introduction I gave up asking about steelhead patterns and simply used standard Atlantic Salmon patterns quite successfully for summer fish, usually in sizes from No 2 to No 6 at the same time I noticed that summer fish were also likely to take ordinary trout patterns such as Teal and Silver and my own Silver Brwon on hooks as small as # 8 and 10. In those days I rarely fished with a fly for winter steelhead.

The first fly I ever saw that was specifically tied for steelhead was the General Money Special. It was an effective fly that I gave the dressing in my book The Western Angler as follows:

Body: Black Silk
Ribs and Tag: Gold tinsel
Wings: Red swan with or with out topping over
Hackle:Yellow

This was taken directly from a fly tied by the general himself. I have seen a good many variations since, adding a tail, substituting wood or seal's fur for silk inthe body or ribbing with silver instead of gold tinsel. General Money also showed me his Prawn Fly which I have found extremely good for winter fish. Again the original dressing is simple:

Ribs and Tag: Silver tinsel
Body: Orange or fiery orange wool
A long red hackle wound palmerwise along the body. In most winter conditions a No 1 or No 2 hook seemed about right.

At about this time somewhere in the early 1930s I began to learn of good steelhead patterns from the State of Washington through my friends Lethcher Lambuth and Enos Bradner. The Skykominish Sunrise and the Purple Peril wee among them and such California favorites as the Golden Demon.

I think it was not until some years later that I learned of other Oregon and California patterns - Hargers Orange, the Comet, Boss Fly the Umpqua Special and the truly remarkable Skunk Fly, among others."

Also see the T. Coombs Steelhead Fly Fishing book page 84 and 85 for a detailed history of General Money. Describes the same flys but no mention of them being the first true steelhead flys.

Also in T. Coombs book Steelhead fly fishing page 38 and 39 he talks of a Mr. Jim Benn in the 1890s who was an CA Eeel River angler from Scotland. He introduced some new patterns involving the Coachman and gave it an eastern dress and western legacy by adding a Red Wing beteeen the tow of white very much a Parmacheene Belle wing. The pattern became known as Been's Coachman, the first local dressing for steelhead that visiting anglers could find confidence in using. John Beens contribution to steelheading is still shrouded in the legends of that recent past, but perhaps almost singularly he established our first steelhead fly heritage.. I am postive that late in Benn's life the Benn's Coachman was an established Eeel River Pattern known to most visting anglers".

Never the less I am going with R.H. Browns memory as the correct answer unless some one presents more conclusive evidence.



BG

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Jane Wagner




Edited by Black_Ghost (11/21/03 07:23 AM)


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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: Black_Ghost]
      #85680 - 11/21/03 07:13 AM

New Trivia Questions:

Trivia # 5: What famous steelhead FF and author said this in one of his books?

""The discovery that steelhead had an exceptional fondness for fluorescent materials would seem to eliminate the last necessity for tradiion. If it can be wrapped on a hook and cast and also satisfy the angler by the fish that takes, then it is a fly. This is much of our steelhead fly future. Fluorescent yarn, from a discarded sweater or fluorescent ribbon from an old hat, if tied on a two cent hook, may very well prove superior to a finely crafted traditional $ 2.75 Thunder and Ligtning ".

Trivia # 6:

"Where and when was the first tied fly identifed as origninating, whats its name and dressing? "

BG



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Edited by Black_Ghost (11/21/03 07:24 AM)


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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: Black_Ghost]
      #85704 - 11/21/03 09:03 AM

whoever said question number 5 did not account for the fact that there could be other reasons that we fish for steelhead than to catch numbers. If I want to ctah numbers I can go to a stocker trout pond.

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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: tbuehrens]
      #85712 - 11/21/03 09:14 AM

tbuehrens - ????

And welcome to the site !

BG

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Edited by Black_Ghost (11/21/03 09:45 AM)


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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: Black_Ghost]
      #86184 - 11/24/03 04:33 AM

HINTS:

Trivia # 5:

He wrote three important books on Steelhead fly fishing and its history.

Trivia # 6:

You can find the answer in the Macedonian philosopher Aelian's book.

BG

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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: Black_Ghost]
      #86607 - 11/26/03 09:25 AM

Trey Combs wrote three of the most important books for fly fishing Steelhead.

Matt

Edited by Mattzoid (11/26/03 09:27 AM)


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Re: Fly Fishing Historical Trivia new [Re: Mattzoid]
      #86766 - 11/27/03 05:46 AM

Mattzoid" answer to Trivia # 5 is absolutely correct!

This quote from Mr. Coombs second book Steelhead Fly Fishing and Flies Chapter VI Page 70.

"He goes on to state "there are those who argue that an English salmon fly possesses some life suggesting authority. But what can be said for a wad of fluorescent wool ? If it is red or orange, we say it is taken for spawn. What if it is pink, yellow, or green ? When fluorescent yarn is tied to bare hook, we essentially have a drift fisherman's yarn fly."

"No freshwater gamefish is so willing to involve itself in our personal fly designs as the steelhead. This has permitted anglers unlimited latitute in exploiting the weakness for all things fluorescent and bright, somber and dark, large and small, while simultaneouly creating in the fly tying tradition. The andramous rainbow has challenged our ingenuity and imagination, and steelhead patterns are today among the most beautiful in angling. The Syd Glasso flys are a case in point. They contain all the fluorescent advantages wedded to the Old World Atlantic Salmon fly likeness".

Congrats Matt thats a point for you. No wonder I have so many steelhead flys after 23 years. The constant fly design var